Super awesome 6 year necro.
If I have a planeswalker and a ghostly prison in play and the opponent doesn't know the rules interaction, do I have to say something if they tap to "pay" for the enchantment under the following circumstances:
1. They don't say anything, tap two lands, and say "This one attacks planeswalker"
2. They say "pay 2 for prison, attack planeswalker"
I don't know when I'm supposed to correct them. Obviously I'd prefer not to say anything at all if I'm trying to win, but what am I obligated by rules to tell them?
Necromancy denied.
They're allowed to tap lands at any time. They're not allowed to pay a nonexistent cost. The first you don't have to correct them, the second you do.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I was having this discussion and someone brought up the rule:
106.4a If a player passes priority (see rule 116) while there is mana in his or her mana pool, that player announces what mana is there. If any mana remains in a player’s mana pool after he or she spends mana to pay a cost, that player announces what mana is still there.
Does this mean anything in situation 1? They're technically floating mana, even though they don't announce it or think that they are floating it. Would this be a place where I am obligated to tell them about it or call a judge since they do not disclose the information necessary?
I'm not sure what the current thinking is on that. Announcing mana floating is one of those rules that exists for a good reason, but in practice has been rarely enforced.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I'm curious on this. What would be the order of events that would need to occur for my opponent to "pay" for a Ghostly Prison/Propaganda when attacking a planeswalker I control?
During declare attackers they announce a creature attacking a planeswalker I control and tap 2 lands, floating the mana. They don't say anything verbally to denote they are paying for a cost. They then pass priority and we move to declare blockers, at which point the mana has emptied, and even if they realize their mistake, there's no going back.
This is correct?
Originally Posted by GreatWhale
Well, no... You have to have priority or being asked for payment.
Which leads me to my next point: Ghostly prison asks for payment at the time attackers are declared, a time where no one has priority
So in order to pay, they have to tap as they declare attackers, but if they don't have to tap because they are attacking a planeswalker, they cannot even activate the mana ability whatsoever. Certainly if they explicitly tell you they are paying for ghostly prison you'd have to correct them, but I'd argue further that the attacking and tapping lands at the same time is only possible in payment of a cost that is not necessary. Allowing your opponent to activate a land when nothing calls for it while not having priority is no good and that's basically what I'd say you are doing here.
Combine this with having to announce floating mana but no announcement being made and I'm having trouble seeing how you can get away with this without pure ignorance.
Matt Bevenour in real life
Get away with what? I want to know exactly how this scenario plays out. Certainly if I wanted to cheat I wouldn't even post this. Players frequently make incorrect choices based on ignorance of rules, but many times the opponent is not required to tell them (missed token triggers the newest, and possibly stupidest, example). At what points in time did 1) the ghostly prison player and 2) the attacker do something wrong, and when would it be breaking the rules. What amount of information being spoken would separate the two?
Since mana pools empty between phases and steps at present, how often do we actually announce this anymore? Like, how often does someone tap an Ancient Tomb for something that costsand just passes without announcing the mana emptying? Or any given situation where Elves! or something "over-taps" their mana and they just let it hang, announcing the initial addition of
^27 but not announcing the overage when a step or phase ends.
See, this is one of those weird areas where I don't know if this is a gotcha or not, because passing priority is one of the most short-cutted things in the game (if we announces each step/phase every time all the time the game would be horrifyingly slow) and during combat it's often enough to ask if there are effects before blockers/before damage/etc that it would be understood that the mana is used up anyway - but is it as simple as just saying "eh the mana was clearly used, not sure that it's relevant that it went towards a cost that couldn't be paid" or not? The opponent taps their attackers, taps some lands - if they're too short in their shortcuts, how do I know what they're trying to do?
Technically true but in practice not as clear. Out-of-order sequencing exists, so in practice one can tap lands pretty much at any time. It's certainly not true that attacking and tapping lands can only be possible in payment of a cost.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Basically this is why I want to know it. I'd love an answer on exactly when I am obligated to step in and explain things, or to call a judge if it's competitive enough level (or am I just obligated to explain it myself instead of calling a judge when they make an "illegal" tap of lands). Is it more my fault or my opponents if they try to pay mana for something without explaining any of it?
Since there's no cost for them to pay, they passed priority with floating mana and didn't announce it. That's a violation of game rules, and if you notice it you are obligated right then and there to interrupt and point out the problem. You can do it by just saying something to the opponent, but of course we always recommend you call a judge. Worst case is opponent gets a Warning (at Competitive/Professional enforcement levels). Possible remedies include "tapping was legal, leave as-is" or "untap the lands", depending on specifics of the situation and the judges' determination of level of disruptiveness to the game.
If you notice your opponent doing something that violates rules, and you deliberately don't point it out because it's to your advantage, and we find out (or have reason to suspect) you did that, you get DQ'd out of the tournament.
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