[Article] The Pro Tour Sucks (and general ranting about the state of the game)

[TheDarkshineKnight]

See I don't want much commentary, just a play-by-play. You don't need to tell me what the thought process is or why you think the play is going to be, because that's all just speculation. Do an interview after the match and get actual information. Yes, more information would require more people, probably an entire production team like any other televised sporting event. Not necessarily for every SCG Open or GP, but for the highest levels of play, it should be something polished. There's an air of legitimacy that that's just missing from the Pro Tour.

One thing I forgot in the previous post - the prize support has to get better. 250K for a pro tour win, for how many hours of work? Some DOTA (League maybe? I don't follow that closely) tournament just crowd-funded a 13 million dollar prize pool. GP payouts are even more pathetic, especially considering the time and money involved just in participating in the event. Hasbro made a net profit of $375 million in 09...throw us a bone here guys.

Said DotA 2 tournament (The International) now has a prize-pool of over $15,000,000 and is going to be the largest E-Sports event in history. Also, even more frightening is that only 1/4 of the cash from in-game purchases goes to the prize pool. So, that means players have collectively purchased over $60,000,000 in virtual goods that are connected in some way to the tournament. I know I personally spent around $200 on it since DotA is basically taking the place of Magic for me, now.

[iamajellydonut]

Last I checked, there's a difference between mindless freemium computer games and a skill intensive $400-3000 physical card game. Though it can be fun to watch, Magic makes a terrible spectator sport and, because of that, doesn't seek to rake in the money from ridiculous tournaments. It's got no big sponsorships from Razor and things like overpriced graphics cards aren't flying off the shelves because of it. Best we've got for sponsors are maybe Ultra Pro, Rubbermaid, and Doritos.

Filthy casuals are what make this game profitable. Not tournaments.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I know it's been mentioned here before, but I couldn't find a thread devoted to this article by Christopher Morris-Lent (CML):

http://legendstech.tumblr.com/post/1...pro-tour-sucks

Wow, that was one heck of a brilliantly negative article! I liked it a lot and I read it at once!
Many thanks CML for writing this, I never had such nice time reading about MtG in years.
Also, I hope that you're not done for good with PTs, as I'd love to read many more such articles, but I do understand that it's not your wish to spend time doing this magical cards gatherings and all that stuff.

I also need tell that there are lots of really good posts in this thread, in order of appearance: Richard Cheese, danyul, TsumiBand, Lormador, Kathal, GenghisTom.

[Ellomdian]

CML is often outrageous, mostly insane, and generally the closest thing to a living Hunter S Thompson that Seattle can call her own. He's also really smart, but in a way akin to a Batman villain. This article gained a ton of traction for being super honest in a way that only CML can be.

Except CML is effectively a professional Troll, and Thompson was a brilliant satirist.

Or to put it another way, CML writes because he likes to be heard, Thompson wrote because it needed to be written.

This is pretty much spot on. Perhaps there's some kind of mid-magic-life crisis that those of us too young to own power but old enough to remember "simpler times" are going through.

Talk to some of the people who do own power and who are going through the same thing. I think a big part of it is that when your scope of experience and knowledge gets to a certain point, Standard becomes not only unattractive, but downright unfun.

Filthy casuals are what make this game profitable. Not tournaments.

I really wish more people understood this. We had 2500 people show up to play the first Mini-master in Vegas - how many of them do you think were the PTQ-grinding, late-night-testing semi-pros? GP's are designed to be open events that provide a social experience that is easily marketable. The Pro Tour is still a very cash-cheap marketing exercise, and for every person that complains/drops out at the top end, there is someone waiting to step up in their place. That's a big part of the new PPTQ system - you used to have the opportunity to be a winner MAYBE 4-5 times a season, now you get to be one damn near every weekend.

[iamajellydonut]

I wish I wasn't too busy to add to this. Specifically with regards to interest in other formats.

I'm going to have to keep this brief, but I want to honestly say that I don't believe the mentalities of aging players have changed. I do sincerely believe that the entertainment value of the game has shifted for the worst. Not only do I currently find Standard to be a bland and uninspired hunk of garbage, but I also believe Limited to be stale and weak. And this used to not be the case. Limited used to be my jam. Every week two or three flights. It was great. I used to think that my loss of interest in the Limited format was me being a jaded pseudo-elitist, but the truth is that I've had enough encounters with old sets in situations where nostalgia wasn't a factor, and I've realized that it is actually the sets that are bringing down my interest in the game as a whole.

I mean, as food for thought, when was the last time we saw combo? Splinter Twin? And before that something from Time Spiral? And when was the last time we saw an innovated deck as opposed to the most efficient creatures shoved into a pile of sixty and deployed to the battlefield? Innistrad? The game has changed, and I don't like it. I'm all for playing Standard. I would actually like to be able to play Standard. Same with Limited and even Modern. But not like this.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Limited used to be my jam.

Hmmph...
I just figured you'd prefer jelly.

[iamajellydonut]

I'm not a fucking cannibal. How dare you?

[Ace/Homebrew]

How dare you?

I'd explain myself, but I'm too busy to add more. I wish I wasn't. Specifically with regards to fruit-based spread.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I remember back in 93', kids were playing on the asphalt at recess with Alpha cards. One kid in particular, lost a Black Lotus in an ante, was so pissed off, stormed off and threw his cards in the trash.

Wish we could go back to the simpler times...enough said.

[jrsthethird]

I've been playing on and off for 20 years. I'm 28 years old right now and just got back into it, but on MTGO this time since I cashed out a few years ago. If I had seen this level of resentment towards the game 2 months ago, before I bought a new (refurbished) Windows laptop and 3 decks worth of digital cards, I might have had second thoughts. But whatever, I love this game and I was itching to play again. It's a bad drug that just pulls you back in when you thought you were done.

Honestly the only thing that makes the game worth buying into and playing again is that the cards retain value over time. The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.

Lots of thoughts, lots of responses. Here goes:

A couple years ago, on the cusp of cashing out of competitive Magic, a friend of mine said something along the lines of, "All competitive Magic players are just frustrated they couldn't live the dream of being competitive Poker players." Holy shit was he right. I started cashing out of Legacy shortly after that and now I basically don't go to any tournaments bigger than a prerelease anymore because of exactly the dynamic CML talks about. I just don't care anymore. I'll play Commander with friends because I like my friends and I like Commander, but I have other hobbies and other things to do with my time than hang out with Grinders.

The poker thing. YES. And there are so many better things to do than grinding erryday for a marginal increase in win %. Especially in a game where matchups can be your utter downfall. Also, grinding in a poker room isn't much better than grinding MTG all night. I think the only perk is the free drinks.

If you have Finkel on camera, that's not appealing to new players, it's appealing to those who know who he is and how good he is. (Interesting aside, Finkel once was asked who he liked watching the most and he said he doesn't like watching other people play. 2012 Player's Championship interview, I think.)

This isn't surprising to me. I found him on OKCupid after that fiasco a few years ago, and just from his profile I could tell he wasn't as stuffy as a lot of pros can be. He had a sense of humor about the whole thing. I honestly only watched coverage once in my life, and it was for a Jupiter Games Legacy event my friends were playing in that I couldn't make. I just watched when my friend was in the feature. Never seemed interesting to me, and even less so now that I hear so many bad things about it.

This is the appeal of watching a stream of someone playing MTGO -- you get to see what is in their hand and often get to hear most of their thought process. MTGO can't replicate the feeling of playing physical cards, but there's a lot of plusses to the future of professional Magic being digital. No cheating, more information for the viewers, and you can even mic up the players. Obviously right now all of this is outweighed by how terrible MTGO is, but I don't think Magic as a spectator event has a longterm future with physical cards.

I agree with this. I was testing against a guy on MTGO and he told me to check out his twitch account. I had never used twitch before, but on a whim I decided to check it out. Probably for the ridiculously vain reason of seeing my own deck on there. Needless to say, I was late, because I didn't realize it was a live stream. I watched anyway, and he had personality. I could see myself hanging out with the dude. He was listening to music, chatting with his viewers/teammates, going through his decklist choices; he even got bored of MTGO for the time and switched to Hearthstone and I watched him play two matches of THAT.

As far as coverage goes, I think there are a few simple steps they could take to make it a bit more interesting and (more importantly) accessible.

First: make the top 8 special.
Second: pocket cams.
Third: make the commentary less conjecture, more exposition.
Fourth: on-screen graphics.

So basically, make it exactly like poker.

These are really great ideas. A third day, your players will be well-rested and informed of the matchups and opponents, so they'll be able to make the absolute best choices. The commentators will have done research into the decklists and player backgrounds, so they'll have more interesting notes that the players might not even realize (Player X frequently bluffs a pump spell; Player Y never taps out playing blue; something like that). Pocket cams (or more realistically, GoPros/glasses cam) can tell what's in the hand, as well as sideboarding/tutoring decisions. The players can take their time, with a judge handling the decks, and the whole shebang can be edited together afterwards with the relevant graphics. Seeing GoPro footage as a viewer is probably TERRIBLE, but a normal overhead view with a digital graphic overlay on the side with hands/graveyards/etc. would be aesthetically pleasing to watch.

But this is too much work for a company that isn't willing (or necessarily needing) to do it.

This is actually a really interesting statement because it reflects some real truth at WOTC. A while back I was listening to Mark Rosewater's podcast in which he talked about all of the changes made since Future Sight. One of the big reasons for the whole "New World Order" plan was a result of the Future Sight block really turning off casual players. Rosewater said that for the first time in Magic's history, they saw increased tournament attendance but decreased sales of boosters. What was happening, which was never apparent to them before, was that tournament players embraced Future Sight but casual players hated it. Up until that point they just assumed that Tournament Attendance and Booster Sales had a strong natural correlation. And it showed to them, for the first time ever, that the bulk of their sales actually came from casual players. Up til that point I would assume that alot of effort went into marketing and promoting tournaments and professional play, because they simply thought that competitive players were driving the majority of their sales. After Future Sight, their conclusion was the opposite: to make the most money, they had to cater instead to the casual player first and foremost. So long story short... they definitely don't need the "pro" player, and their decreased tournament payout/support in general probably reflects that.

Why would tournament players buy packs? They get the singles they need from the secondary market. Seems kinda boneheaded in retrospect to think Wizards didn't realize this.

[Lord Seth]

I mean, as food for thought, when was the last time we saw combo? Splinter Twin?

Jeskai Ascendancy, actually.

[Infinitium]

[...]The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.

Because if its one thing economic history teaches us it's that booming markets will continue to do so indefinetly without risks for involved parties.

[Humphrey]

I agree with many postings here. For me, the "real" magic slowly died over the last 20 years. Un-honorable mentions to Planeswalkers (fucked the game), new Frame (look at alters whats possible), stupid carddesign (giving blue everything),fundamental rulechanges (getting rid of manaburn), stupid (non-)bannings (TC, Brainstorm) and mainstreaming the complexity.

Yet Magic is more successful than ever and most players I know are into casual gaming anyways (mostly Highlander, EDH here)

Thank God, I found the Cube-format, where I can chose from 25k+ cards and can create that Magic experience I want to play. (and play with copies instead of insanely overpriced cards)

Maybe some of us just notice how old they are getting. Heck, I play since 1996...


oh and the cheating.. Flame me, but good cheating is one of the skills you need to be succesful. Be it Magic, Sports or Life. If you always play by the rules, you achieve nothing.

[Aggro_zombies]

Honestly the only thing that makes the game worth buying into and playing again is that the cards retain value over time. The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.

When Magic's popularity finally starts to wane, this won't be the case anymore. Rare and collectible cards will retain value commensurate with their rarity and collectability, but stuff that is not particularly collectible will drop in price. In particular, stuff from within five or so years of Magic's peak popularity will drop like a rock as new acquisitions lose interest and try to liquidate their collections, flooding the market with cards.

Wizards really needs to get a handle on affordability issues. Casuals are great and all but individual casual players don't support LGSes and don't support tournaments at anywhere near the level to keep the lights on - casual players may spend $15-20 buying packs or singles around the time a set drops but will disappear or buy a pack infrequently in the dry spells between. A single competitive player will drop more on cards and drafts and tournament fees in a month than a dozen casual players will in a year, thereby effectively subsidizing casual players who just want to have somewhere to buy packs and occasionally play a prerelease. The problem now is that wild secondary market price fluctuations (especially like Modern this season) effectively choke the casual to competitive player conversion rate, while burning out competitive players that don't want to continue spending buckets of cash to keep up with the metagame but also don't want to continue to jam the same obsolete deck into increasingly hostile tournaments. If WotC can't crack that nut, or takes too long to do so, then we'll start seeing players leaving the game in large numbers.

[phonics]

See I don't want much commentary, just a play-by-play. You don't need to tell me what the thought process is or why you think the play is going to be, because that's all just speculation. Do an interview after the match and get actual information. Yes, more information would require more people, probably an entire production team like any other televised sporting event. Not necessarily for every SCG Open or GP, but for the highest levels of play, it should be something polished. There's an air of legitimacy that that's just missing from the Pro Tour.

One thing I forgot in the previous post - the prize support has to get better. 250K for a pro tour win, for how many hours of work? Some DOTA (League maybe? I don't follow that closely) tournament just crowd-funded a 13 million dollar prize pool. GP payouts are even more pathetic, especially considering the time and money involved just in participating in the event. Hasbro made a net profit of $375 million in 09...throw us a bone here guys.

I think the reason commentary is bad is because commentators are bad, When you get someone that is passionate about the format and is knowledgable it clearly shows, one of my favorite commentators is Steve Menendian when he commentates vintage like at Vintage Champs years ago and sometimes on the Vintage Super League, or David Williams. But in formats that are much more linear like Standard and limited there really isn't much to say most of the time. In terms of prize payout it really isn't even much of an incentive for winning, I mean when you are able to get an event that has ~7.5k players at the main event who each paid 75$ to enter, with the winner taking home an earth shattering 4000$ for the deed, it seems a little absurd.

[iamajellydonut]

In terms of prize payout it really isn't even much of an incentive for winning, I mean when you are able to get an event that has ~7.5k players at the main event who each paid 75$ to enter, with the winner taking home an earth shattering 4000$ for the deed, it seems a little absurd.

To be fair, it was two tournaments of about 3.6k players each and the inflated price of entry was due to the event being sealed.

[Plague Sliver]

The CML article really resonated with me. CML, if you're reading this, THANK YOU for writing this.

It's helped me remove the blinders / reality distortion field of why I play this game, and forced me to confront my "Magic demons." In fact, I'm working on a retrospective of why I play, and it's entirely fueled by his article. I'm not a known player at all in the Legacy scene, but I really like CML's "call a spade a spade" approach.

I think the biggest takeaway from his article is simple: we as Magic players take the game too seriously. But it's precisely because we are the biggest competitive dicks that we come back to this drug time and time again, and why we keep playing this crappy game.

@danyul - why do I think I know the specific person you're talking about...making 80k and dropping mad dough on Magic cards ;)

[MGB]

I've been playing on and off for 20 years. I'm 28 years old right now and just got back into it, but on MTGO this time since I cashed out a few years ago. If I had seen this level of resentment towards the game 2 months ago, before I bought a new (refurbished) Windows laptop and 3 decks worth of digital cards, I might have had second thoughts. But whatever, I love this game and I was itching to play again. It's a bad drug that just pulls you back in when you thought you were done.

Honestly the only thing that makes the game worth buying into and playing again is that the cards retain value over time. The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.

This really isn't something you can rely on. Cards have increased in value up until now, but at some point the specter of nearly-perfect Chinese fakes will materialize in a big way and the market will be flooded with duplicates that are indistinguishable from the "real thing". Who knows when it will happen, but I'm pretty convinced that at some point it will be impossible to tell real cards from fake cards if they don't have any of the new forgery countermeasures embedded in the cards. When this does happen en masse, then you will see a massive drop in the value of all of your old cards.

If you believe that this will happen at some point in the near future, it probably would not be wise to count on this concept of "Magic as an investment plan".

[TsumiBand]

Yeah definitely don't count on the re-re-re-re-cashing out thing to work out. Even forgetting counterfeits (which, you shouldn't, but... ) the mere fact that satisfying entry barriers in Vintage has led to venues going 100% proxy events is telling of just how much it actually matters to Vintage that people get to play with "real" Power. So whether or not Eternal formats continue to have participants, or whether or not the format(s) grow, or what-have-you -- these are less important than the ways in which the participants have adjusted their expectations. It's checkers with rocks and sticks, sure, but the game is intact. I wouldn't trust it to hold, or at least, not like it has in years previous.

[Richard Cheese]

As much as I've hated on the reserved list, I have to admit that I'm totally that guy that's not buying into Modern because I know the prices on a lot of these cards will eventually tank. Sure, there's some stuff like Goyfs and Bobs that probably won't see release outside Modern Masters sets, but there's plenty of stuff out there like Grove, Canopy, Blood Moon, Guide, etc. that could just get shoehorned into any new set like Thoughtseize.

Also, it's not inspiring any hope to see that MtG as financial investment is probably driving these prices way more than some mythical rabid Modern player base. I just read this the other day on mtgstocks:

"Tendo Ice Bridge is another card in a long line of Modern cards that got bought out. As these buyouts progress I can now tell you with increasing certainty that speculating on cards is now happening a lot more, and also outside the usual channels. Spikes seem more sudden and look a lot more unpredictable.

I have no idea if this trend will continue, but it worries me. I mean, Tendo Ice Bridge is a card that is used as a one-off in Hive Mind decks. It does its job, but it is not $12.73 good.There is no real reason why anyone would or should pay $50 for a playset.

When people buy out a card you need to have a real demand to back it up. You can't just buy out a card nobody wants and expect to make a profit. You can buy all copies of Aventurer's Guildhous and see the price of the card go up. But who is going to buy the card? Nobody. So the price will fall until supply meets demand.

But the sad thing is that there is a real demand for Tendo Ice Bridge. And that demand will probably not change if its price is twice as high. If you like Hive Mind and want to play in a Grand Prix or another tournament you will have to buy the card. It's like gasoline. Everybody thinks it is too expensive, but you won't stop refueling. And that's how this speculation is hurting magic. Not in its collectible spirit, but in our collective wallets."

WotC really has to get a better handle on the secondary market if they want the game to continue to grow. I realize that having a bunch of mediocre cards going for $50+ is just money in the bank for them, but by slow-rolling reprintings like this, I think they're risking flying a little too close to the sun.