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Thread: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

  1. #1

    [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Well, simple information this time around - what do I think are currently the best decks in the format:

    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Top-Tier.html

    Enjoy - and please keep it civil :p
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  2. #2
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    Well, simple information this time around - what do I think are currently the best decks in the format:

    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Top-Tier.html

    Enjoy - and please keep it civil :p
    Was nice to read.

    I do think the claim that Storm is top tier to be difficult to defend although I have yet to play with dark petition. The rest I pretty much agree with.
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  3. #3

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    Enjoy - and please keep it civil :p
    I think you are pretty safe this time. Every choice on that list is defend-able.

    AggroLoam has had two good showing in large tournaments (GP, Prague). I would want to see more consistent finishes before I declare it the best non-blue deck over lands.

  4. #4
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    Well, simple information this time around - what do I think are currently the best decks in the format:

    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Top-Tier.html

    Enjoy - and please keep it civil :p
    What do you see Esper looking like? Swapping Mentors for Pyromancers and addling a land or two? Or Something akin to Patrick Reynold's Esper builds?

  5. #5

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    If we were to swap Grixis for Esper by going Mentor for Pyromancer and StP for Lightning Bolt, I wonder what would make this a better game plan than Mentor Miracles?

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Replacing red for white has a couple of issues not the least being that Mentor costing 3 instead of 2 is a big deal - but the white version can't replace Jack or the pyros/moon in the board.

  7. #7

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    Well, simple information this time around - what do I think are currently the best decks in the format:

    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Top-Tier.html

    Enjoy - and please keep it civil :p
    4c delver seems really a good deck, i also test against it yesterday with my "old" grixis version (noah walker winner one) and i still have a question:

    why 4c? You really want underground sea and so a less consistant mana base for 2 sideboard cards: Charm and dismember and DRT attivation? Doesn't this manabase offer a big spot for D&T and other manamining deck?

    and on this argument, can some board control deck, (i have in mind old t1 stax/lockstock) enter the metagame like aggroloam and brake it?

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulabnar View Post
    4c delver seems really a good deck, i also test against it yesterday with my "old" grixis version (noah walker winner one) and i still have a question:

    why 4c? You really want underground sea and so a less consistant mana base for 2 sideboard cards: Charm and dismember and DRT attivation? Doesn't this manabase offer a big spot for D&T and other manamining deck?

    and on this argument, can some board control deck, (i have in mind old t1 stax/lockstock) enter the metagame like aggroloam and brake it?
    Abrupt Decay is pretty good, playing a few copies in the main ensures that you're not stone dead to a Counterbalance or Chalice.
    Definitely says something about the metagame that these are bigger concerns than Wasteland.
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Plague Sliver View Post
    Abrupt Decay is pretty good, playing a few copies in the main ensures that you're not stone dead to a Counterbalance or Chalice.
    Ops sorry missread the list :)

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Good article, Carsten.

    The one thing I think is worth some discussion is the Grixis control deck and its potential to evolve into Esper Mentor. IMO, they are quite different decks and the issue isn't really one vs. the other. I played Esper Thopters before Mentor was released, and switched to the Grixis deck a couple months ago, and I think the Grixis deck will continue to be well-positioned -- if not better-positioned than Esper decks -- into the future.

    Tarmogoyf is increasingly unpopular, and for good reason. Green doesn't offer enough to blue decks right now compared to black. Abrupt Decay is woefully inadequate vs. Delve creatures, Pyromancer/Mentor swarms, and Omniscience, and though it kills Counterbalance, the velocity of the Grixis deck allows it to get ahead of Counterbalance (not to mention the ability to counter or strip it) and force Miracles to the defensive early. Deathrite Shaman is still a beast, and I play a set here, but its green ability is the weakest part of the card and almost unnecessary. I honestly don't even know why I bother with the one Trop other than style points. However, its ability to produce colored mana under a Blood Moon and throw a wrench into Wasteland decks is invaluable. I really think it's better than Delver of Secrets here; it's still an evasive threat, but it's NEVER a bad draw and it ALWAYS does something on turn 2.

    This is my current list. While I don't believe it's perfect, 100% guaranteed in every potential matchup, I have had reasonable success and been able to evolve it to beat decks that were bad matchups earlier in my testing (D&T and other non-blue attrition decks specifically):

    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Gurmag Angler
    2 Snapcaster Mage

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Force of Will
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Dig Through Time
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Counterspell

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Wasteland
    1 Island
    1 Tropical Island

    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Force of Will
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Rakdos Charm
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Terminate
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Null Rod

    About the only thing I feel these decks are missing is the ability to play Hymn to Tourach, which would be such a savage beating. Unfortunately getting the mana to work is difficult. I've tried a Badlands, it's bad.

    I saw what you wrote about playing less than 4 DTT, and I actually only play 2. While DTT is a bomb, multiples in your opener force you into awkward Brainstorms and mulligan decisions, and this deck rips through itself so fast it's hard to miss one. I see Baleful Strix as a DTT-like card. Even though it only draws your next card, it has so many other uses (it brick-walls anything that isn't TNN, and is perfectly fine as a Therapy even if you just cast and immediately sacrifice it) that it is almost like resolving a DTT in that it "finds you what you need." (Also keeping total Delve count to 4 cards is important).

    But perhaps the most important thing Grixis has going for it over BUG or Esper is not just Pyroblast (which is incredible against Miracles and Omni, which I'll get to later), but Lightning Bolt. Bolt is a key get-out-of-jail-free card in a swingy format. Bolt-snap-Bolt is a perfectly legitimate way to win after plinking away with DRS and/or Strix. When they pass their turn because they know you have counterspells and you've stripped their hand and you just dome them at EOT, it's a great feeling.

    I also think Fire // Ice is an important card, I've killed many a Mom or Dryad Arbor with it, and if you hit your Wastelands or Therapy away cheap plays, tapping their land and drawing a card in their upkeep is (dare I say it) practically a Time Walk! (Note: I know it's not really actual Time Walk). And it pitches to Force and is RIDICULOUS with Snapcaster Mage.

    But I want to close by talking about Pyroblast. I've been a fan of non-blue decks for a while and have dabbled in various red strategies. I used to think "der bring in all my blast effects vs. blue.format, how can I go wrong?" But like so many cards, Pyroblast is best in blue decks. That's because its No. 1 use isn't killing Delver, or countering Counterbalance, but it's actually winning counter wars. 1 mana Hymn to Tourach that lets you resolve your spell is super insane. Of course the fact that it counters Show & Tell, Counterbalance and True-Name Nemesis is important. But this isn't a card you can just jam 3-4 of in your 75 and expect to just win against the very blue format. You need to be able to find it, swap it out when it's bad, be patient and not just use it to nuke the first Delver you see.

    TL;DR: Grixis is the best blue deck against other blue decks, and can be tuned to have a puncher's chance against some of the meta-beatdown decks like Aggro Loam and D&T.

  11. #11
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Good read and very agreeable. Not much to add from me.
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Good article, Carsten.

    The one thing I think is worth some discussion is the Grixis control deck and its potential to evolve into Esper Mentor. IMO, they are quite different decks and the issue isn't really one vs. the other. I played Esper Thopters before Mentor was released, and switched to the Grixis deck a couple months ago, and I think the Grixis deck will continue to be well-positioned -- if not better-positioned than Esper decks -- into the future.

    Tarmogoyf is increasingly unpopular, and for good reason. Green doesn't offer enough to blue decks right now compared to black. Abrupt Decay is woefully inadequate vs. Delve creatures, Pyromancer/Mentor swarms, and Omniscience, and though it kills Counterbalance, the velocity of the Grixis deck allows it to get ahead of Counterbalance (not to mention the ability to counter or strip it) and force Miracles to the defensive early. Deathrite Shaman is still a beast, and I play a set here, but its green ability is the weakest part of the card and almost unnecessary. I honestly don't even know why I bother with the one Trop other than style points. However, its ability to produce colored mana under a Blood Moon and throw a wrench into Wasteland decks is invaluable. I really think it's better than Delver of Secrets here; it's still an evasive threat, but it's NEVER a bad draw and it ALWAYS does something on turn 2.

    This is my current list. While I don't believe it's perfect, 100% guaranteed in every potential matchup, I have had reasonable success and been able to evolve it to beat decks that were bad matchups earlier in my testing (D&T and other non-blue attrition decks specifically):

    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Gurmag Angler
    2 Snapcaster Mage

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Force of Will
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Dig Through Time
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Counterspell

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Wasteland
    1 Island
    1 Tropical Island

    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Force of Will
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Rakdos Charm
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Terminate
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Null Rod

    About the only thing I feel these decks are missing is the ability to play Hymn to Tourach, which would be such a savage beating. Unfortunately getting the mana to work is difficult. I've tried a Badlands, it's bad.

    I saw what you wrote about playing less than 4 DTT, and I actually only play 2. While DTT is a bomb, multiples in your opener force you into awkward Brainstorms and mulligan decisions, and this deck rips through itself so fast it's hard to miss one. I see Baleful Strix as a DTT-like card. Even though it only draws your next card, it has so many other uses (it brick-walls anything that isn't TNN, and is perfectly fine as a Therapy even if you just cast and immediately sacrifice it) that it is almost like resolving a DTT in that it "finds you what you need." (Also keeping total Delve count to 4 cards is important).

    But perhaps the most important thing Grixis has going for it over BUG or Esper is not just Pyroblast (which is incredible against Miracles and Omni, which I'll get to later), but Lightning Bolt. Bolt is a key get-out-of-jail-free card in a swingy format. Bolt-snap-Bolt is a perfectly legitimate way to win after plinking away with DRS and/or Strix. When they pass their turn because they know you have counterspells and you've stripped their hand and you just dome them at EOT, it's a great feeling.

    I also think Fire // Ice is an important card, I've killed many a Mom or Dryad Arbor with it, and if you hit your Wastelands or Therapy away cheap plays, tapping their land and drawing a card in their upkeep is (dare I say it) practically a Time Walk! (Note: I know it's not really actual Time Walk). And it pitches to Force and is RIDICULOUS with Snapcaster Mage.

    But I want to close by talking about Pyroblast. I've been a fan of non-blue decks for a while and have dabbled in various red strategies. I used to think "der bring in all my blast effects vs. blue.format, how can I go wrong?" But like so many cards, Pyroblast is best in blue decks. That's because its No. 1 use isn't killing Delver, or countering Counterbalance, but it's actually winning counter wars. 1 mana Hymn to Tourach that lets you resolve your spell is super insane. Of course the fact that it counters Show & Tell, Counterbalance and True-Name Nemesis is important. But this isn't a card you can just jam 3-4 of in your 75 and expect to just win against the very blue format. You need to be able to find it, swap it out when it's bad, be patient and not just use it to nuke the first Delver you see.

    TL;DR: Grixis is the best blue deck against other blue decks, and can be tuned to have a puncher's chance against some of the meta-beatdown decks like Aggro Loam and D&T.

    Pretty sure the only reason to play this style of deck is for 4 DTT, choosing Anglers over it and TNN just seems wrong.

  13. #13

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by testing32 View Post
    AggroLoam has had two good showing in large tournaments (GP, Prague). I would want to see more consistent finishes before I declare it the best non-blue deck over lands.
    I played Aggro Loam for years and it's a great metagame deck. Its natural predator is stack-based combo in the vein of Storm or similar things; when that disappears from the format, Loam can do well because it can go over the top of tempo and other midrange decks and has good attrition options versus control decks. I do like the move to Junk plus P. Fire as I think Junk colors have the best tools these days to play an attrition-style board control deck. I also like that the sideboard of the build in the article doesn't waste tons of time trying to shore up combo matches - those are more or less a lost cause for grindy board control decks - instead focusing on improving the totally winnable Show'n'Derp matchups.

    I will say that every time I see the manabase for a 4cc Aggro Loam deck it makes me cringe. The one in the article keeps some of the cute tricksy lands to a minimum but I'd still be paranoid about fetching decisions in the absence of a Loam.

  14. #14
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Replacing red for white has a couple of issues not the least being that Mentor costing 3 instead of 2 is a big deal - but the white version can't replace Jack or the pyros/moon in the board.
    Not to mention that you are losing the reach of the Bolts, which can be a substantial handicap vs other Delver deck

    Also, as a advocate of Chalice in Legacy, I have to wonder whether Loam is a legitimate deck, or that Lille was just a very good room for ye olde T1 Chalice on 1 GG.

    I am glad that Lands appears to be the Zombie of the format though - it just... keeps... coming... I would be willing to bet that it has the best results for the number of players on it over the last 4-5 months.
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Good article, Carsten.

    The one thing I think is worth some discussion is the Grixis control deck and its potential to evolve into Esper Mentor. IMO, they are quite different decks and the issue isn't really one vs. the other. I played Esper Thopters before Mentor was released, and switched to the Grixis deck a couple months ago, and I think the Grixis deck will continue to be well-positioned -- if not better-positioned than Esper decks -- into the future.

    Tarmogoyf is increasingly unpopular, and for good reason. Green doesn't offer enough to blue decks right now compared to black. Abrupt Decay is woefully inadequate vs. Delve creatures, Pyromancer/Mentor swarms, and Omniscience, and though it kills Counterbalance, the velocity of the Grixis deck allows it to get ahead of Counterbalance (not to mention the ability to counter or strip it) and force Miracles to the defensive early. Deathrite Shaman is still a beast, and I play a set here, but its green ability is the weakest part of the card and almost unnecessary. I honestly don't even know why I bother with the one Trop other than style points. However, its ability to produce colored mana under a Blood Moon and throw a wrench into Wasteland decks is invaluable. I really think it's better than Delver of Secrets here; it's still an evasive threat, but it's NEVER a bad draw and it ALWAYS does something on turn 2.

    About the only thing I feel these decks are missing is the ability to play Hymn to Tourach, which would be such a savage beating. Unfortunately getting the mana to work is difficult. I've tried a Badlands, it's bad.

    But perhaps the most important thing Grixis has going for it over BUG or Esper is not just Pyroblast (which is incredible against Miracles and Omni, which I'll get to later), but Lightning Bolt. Bolt is a key get-out-of-jail-free card in a swingy format. Bolt-snap-Bolt is a perfectly legitimate way to win after plinking away with DRS and/or Strix. When they pass their turn because they know you have counterspells and you've stripped their hand and you just dome them at EOT, it's a great feeling.

    But I want to close by talking about Pyroblast. I've been a fan of non-blue decks for a while and have dabbled in various red strategies. I used to think "der bring in all my blast effects vs. blue.format, how can I go wrong?" But like so many cards, Pyroblast is best in blue decks. That's because its No. 1 use isn't killing Delver, or countering Counterbalance, but it's actually winning counter wars. 1 mana Hymn to Tourach that lets you resolve your spell is super insane. Of course the fact that it counters Show & Tell, Counterbalance and True-Name Nemesis is important. But this isn't a card you can just jam 3-4 of in your 75 and expect to just win against the very blue format. You need to be able to find it, swap it out when it's bad, be patient and not just use it to nuke the first Delver you see.

    TL;DR: Grixis is the best blue deck against other blue decks, and can be tuned to have a puncher's chance against some of the meta-beatdown decks like Aggro Loam and D&T.
    Goyf is increasingly unpopular relative to pre-Khans when it was the best standalone threat available, but decks packing Goyfs have top 8'ed every large tournament in June and July ("large" here referring to the SCG PIQs, Prague Eternal, and GP Lille). Grixis decks, on the other hand, missed top 8 at both GP Lille and the PIQ in Indianapolis despite what were, by all accounts, large meta penetrations. I'm not saying that Grixis is bad - I agree with you and Carsten that it's a tier 1 deck - but suggesting that red has somehow obsolesced green is a splash in UBx is clearly wrong. I find this especially odd coming after the BUG Dig Through Time deck showed up at 15th place in the Richmond PIQ, a week after finishing second at the PIQ Chicago and spending a month putting up several 4-0s in MODO dailies. That deck is clearly in the early tuning stages and it's putting up notable results already; having played a few matches with it myself it's got a ton of power - including Hymn to Tourach. I also wouldn't sell Abrupt Decay short - it's the only "hard" answer to Counterbalance; it's the best answer to Chalice on 1, and you can't do tricks get around it with Mentor or Swiftspear.That being said, I definitely agree with you on how Lightning Bolt's reach is a Big Thing.

    As for Pyroblast and Esper Mentor - white has equivalent cards that win counter wars in Abeyance, Silence, and Orim's Chant. Chant and Abeyance have their own upsides as well, but the fact that you have to lead on the nonblue trump is mostly irrelevant here since the idea is that you're provoking (and ostensibly winning) a large resource exchange and it doesn't matter whether winning it involves REB/Pyroblast or Chant/Abeyance.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by HSCK View Post
    Pretty sure the only reason to play this style of deck is for 4 DTT, choosing Anglers over it and TNN just seems wrong.
    I'm not going to argue too much about it, but my main point is that Grixis isn't good because it just jams 4 DTTs, it's because it plays the best cards in the meta.

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    Goyf is increasingly unpopular relative to pre-Khans when it was the best standalone threat available, but decks packing Goyfs have top 8'ed every large tournament in June and July ("large" here referring to the SCG PIQs, Prague Eternal, and GP Lille). Grixis decks, on the other hand, missed top 8 at both GP Lille and the PIQ in Indianapolis despite what were, by all accounts, large meta penetrations. I'm not saying that Grixis is bad - I agree with you and Carsten that it's a tier 1 deck - but suggesting that red has somehow obsolesced green is a splash in UBx is clearly wrong. I find this especially odd coming after the BUG Dig Through Time deck showed up at 15th place in the Richmond PIQ, a week after finishing second at the PIQ Chicago and spending a month putting up several 4-0s in MODO dailies. That deck is clearly in the early tuning stages and it's putting up notable results already; having played a few matches with it myself it's got a ton of power - including Hymn to Tourach. I also wouldn't sell Abrupt Decay short - it's the only "hard" answer to Counterbalance; it's the best answer to Chalice on 1, and you can't do tricks get around it with Mentor or Swiftspear.That being said, I definitely agree with you on how Lightning Bolt's reach is a Big Thing.

    As for Pyroblast and Esper Mentor - white has equivalent cards that win counter wars in Abeyance, Silence, and Orim's Chant. Chant and Abeyance have their own upsides as well, but the fact that you have to lead on the nonblue trump is mostly irrelevant here since the idea is that you're provoking (and ostensibly winning) a large resource exchange and it doesn't matter whether winning it involves REB/Pyroblast or Chant/Abeyance.
    To be clear, it's not that I don't think BUG can be a good deck, I just think Grixis is relatively better. With regard to the specific deck you're talking about, I would rather have Pyromancer and Bolt (and Pyroblast) than Goyf and Decay in an unknown meta, and the rest of the deck is relatively similar anyway. I can see it being pretty brutal with the full set of wastes and hymns, but that's not Goyf or Decay, and the argument for swapping out the green cards for their red or white equivalents is still the same. (Though I do think Goyf is the best card to pair with Hymn, regardless of the other colors in the deck).

    And another part of my point was that I don't think the threat of big creatures is a point against Lightning Bolt or red. Those creatures still have to resolve through Therapies and countermagic, or win a race against Bolts and snapcasters. Hell I've killed more than one Goyf with a couple elementals and a Bolt. I've also killed Emrakul with Baleful Strix and rebuilt my board with Pyromancer and cantrips. Abrupt Decay is the best answer to some threats, sure, but it's not the only answer, and what you get from red goes a long way as well. (Ancient Grudge in particular is a crucial card for beating Chalice decks)

    I don't think white's weapons against countermagic are anywhere near as good as Pyroblast. And I'm the kind of guy who will play Orim's Chant in Dega or some garbage like that to be quirky. To boot, the white cards don't have ancillary value against S&T, Counterbalance, TNN or DTT.

    Basically, I think the Grixis deck is more than just a gimmicky DTT factory, and the idea that it has to/will evolve is off base as long as Miracles and Omnitell are major components of the meta.

  17. #17

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: My Top Tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Tammit67 View Post
    Was nice to read.

    I do think the claim that Storm is top tier to be difficult to defend although I have yet to play with dark petition. The rest I pretty much agree with.
    Thanks. As for Storm, look at Lille and Kyoto. We both know how easy it is to screwup with Storm and I'd accept large wagers that there was more Show and Tell Combo in either room than Storm - and yet the deck is putting up the numbers. Sounds like top tier to me (also add personal experience, for whatever that's worth).

    AggroLoam has had two good showing in large tournaments (GP, Prague). I would want to see more consistent finishes before I declare it the best non-blue deck over lands.
    I can't personally judge which of the two is better (lack of experience with either), however there were a number of people at the GP whose opinion I trust who said the Loam deck is currently the best non-blue deck.

    What do you see Esper looking like? Swapping Mentors for Pyromancers and addling a land or two? Or Something akin to Patrick Reynold's Esper builds?
    Something quite close to Grixis for starters, basically swapping StP and Mentor in for Bolt and YP. Once that's done, it's time to start tuning and see what else the change needs to entail (and if it is actually worth it).

    If we were to swap Grixis for Esper by going Mentor for Pyromancer and StP for Lightning Bolt, I wonder what would make this a better game plan than Mentor Miracles?
    Abuse of probably the most powerful card advantage spell in the format in Dig Through Time. Is that better than having access to Countertop and Terminus? I don't know but I sure could see that being the case given Grixis is a deck.

    Replacing red for white has a couple of issues not the least being that Mentor costing 3 instead of 2 is a big deal - but the white version can't replace Jack or the pyros/moon in the board.
    I agree there are issues. Those don't seem extreme enough to not even freaking try the concept.

    why 4c? You really want underground sea and so a less consistant mana base for 2 sideboard cards: Charm and dismember and DRT attivation? Doesn't this manabase offer a big spot for D&T and other manamining deck?
    4-C allows you to play the most flexible game because you get got removal, threats and interactive tools. Cutting black means no Deathrite (which ruins your turn 1 threat game and ability to go control/midrange when necessary), cutting red means you need to run bad removal again (Bolt is the only one that is good when you're playing tempo AND when you're playing control) and cutting green means you suddenly lose to Miracles' CB again. Also, Wasteland is at an all time low what with Miracles and OmniShow among the decks you need to fight.

    and on this argument, can some board control deck, (i have in mind old t1 stax/lockstock) enter the metagame like aggroloam and brake it?
    The problem with Stax/MUD and friends in Legacy is the same that it has always been - it just isn't consistently able to make the plays it's designed to do (which imo is very good for the format, Vintage-level Stax just isn't something you want around in Legacy). Aggro Loam is so good because it can rival the card quality and card advantage tools of the blue decks without actually relying on the cantrip engine. Stax and friends on the other hand are and have always been high variance decks that have a significant percentage of hands that are mostly unbeatable but also a similar amount of hands that just doesn't beat anything.

    @maharis: Thanks for sharing, though like HSCK I can't imagine having Anglers instead of more Digs as your delve spell of choice can ever be right (It isn't as if Angler is less awkward than DTT in your opening hand - at least the second copy of Dig pitches to FoW). I'd suggest jamming TNN in those slots and looking to make room for the other two copies of DTT. I also don't know your metagame but I'd feel rather naked with only three copies of both FoW and Therapy.

    I played Aggro Loam for years and it's a great metagame deck. Its natural predator is stack-based combo in the vein of Storm or similar things; when that disappears from the format, Loam can do well because it can go over the top of tempo and other midrange decks and has good attrition options versus control decks. I do like the move to Junk plus P. Fire as I think Junk colors have the best tools these days to play an attrition-style board control deck. I also like that the sideboard of the build in the article doesn't waste tons of time trying to shore up combo matches - those are more or less a lost cause for grindy board control decks - instead focusing on improving the totally winnable Show'n'Derp matchups.

    I will say that every time I see the manabase for a 4cc Aggro Loam deck it makes me cringe. The one in the article keeps some of the cute tricksy lands to a minimum but I'd still be paranoid about fetching decisions in the absence of a Loam.
    Interestingly, when I talked to Niklas during our GP match, he told me Omni is by far his worst matchup, much more so than Storm. Admittedly he still soundly destroyed me (on Omni) in the postboard games. Not much more I can say to that, really, as I don't have personal experience playing the Loam deck. It's supposed to be very tough to play though, which I can easily see being the case from what you mentioned about the fetching decisions to the ton of options Sylvan, Zenith and Loam introduce.

    Also, as a advocate of Chalice in Legacy, I have to wonder whether Loam is a legitimate deck, or that Lille was just a very good room for ye olde T1 Chalice on 1 GG.
    Clearly Legacy at this point is awesome for Chalice but the nice thing about that Loam deck is that, at least postboard, it has access to so much other flexible permanent based hate that it doesn't really need Chalice to work. Or at least that's what it felt like whenever I played against the deck in the past.

    As for Pyroblast and Esper Mentor - white has equivalent cards that win counter wars in Abeyance, Silence, and Orim's Chant. Chant and Abeyance have their own upsides as well, but the fact that you have to lead on the nonblue trump is mostly irrelevant here since the idea is that you're provoking (and ostensibly winning) a large resource exchange and it doesn't matter whether winning it involves REB/Pyroblast or Chant/Abeyance.
    Silence and friends are pretty bad in non-combo decks in my experience, while Pyroblast is awesome. That being said, Thoughtseize can often do a reasonable Pyroblast impression and is actually better in some cases (*cough*Storm*cough*). I'm not saying Esper is necessarily better than Grixis but I think it looks strong enough to at least be worth looking into before dismissing it.

    And another part of my point was that I don't think the threat of big creatures is a point against Lightning Bolt or red. Those creatures still have to resolve through Therapies and countermagic, or win a race against Bolts and snapcasters.
    Having played with Grixis-style removal set ups against Goyfs, Tasigur and similar sized threats I'm still quite confident saying that it's a huge difference if your removal removes them for one mana no questions asked or having to either waste countermagic on them that I'd like to use on non-creature cards or finding a more tricky way to deal with them. Once again, I don't think Grixis needs to change or evolve to Esper but the possibility should be explored because it seems like it might be a viable approach to take with its own pros and cons.
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