Let's suppose I have Liliana, Heretical Healer, and a Sakashima the Impostor copying her in play, and then Liliana gets bolted and dies.
Does Sakashima get returned after the trigger exiles him, and do I get a zombie token?
When an object refers to itself by name, what it means is "this object".
When an effect instructs a permanent to transform and that permanent is not a double-sided card, it doesn't transform. (Impossible instructions are ignored, or completed as much as possible when that's possible like an instruction to discard two cards with one in hand.)
So yes, Sakashima's copied ability will trigger and resolve, minus the transforming and the 2/2.
Edit: I'm not completely sure about getting the 2/2; "if you do" presumably means following every instruction, which you can't.
Last edited by cdr; 08-03-2015 at 05:40 PM.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
In the given scenario, it sounds that Sakashima exiles and doesn't return, since it can exile, but not return, and there is no zombie token, since the beginning instructions weren't followed.
Just trying for that last step understanding...
You can return it, so it returns. You can't transform it, so it isn't transformed. "Return it to the battlefield transformed" is "transformed" modifying "return it to the battlefield".Originally Posted by ahg113
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I'm pretty sure you actually do get a Zombie. The relevant rule should be:
117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
Exiling and returning Lili is, counterintuitively, a mandatory cost for the effect of making a Zombie. You started to pay the cost, which is enough to get the effect.
You're right. I was looking for that rule when I made my initial answer, but missed it somehow.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Ah. Thanks.
...
So what happens if I activate Scion of the Ur-Dragon, and search, but don't put a dragon card into my graveyard?
I really am curious about that.
You can search, and not find a card (there might not be any dragon cards left in the library). Following the template of cards like Liliana (or fetchlands) that's clearly enough for the copy effect to go off, but there's no card to copy, and I don't see anything in the rules about copying a card that never existed.2: Search your library for a Dragon permanent card and put it into your graveyard. If you do, Scion of the Ur-Dragon becomes a copy of that card until end of turn. Then shuffle your library.
If you didn't attempt to put a dragon permanent into your yard, you never began to pay the mandatory cost.
EDIT: I was wrong there. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, nothing happens. If Scion attempts to copy a card which never existed or has no known information, the copy doesn't happen at all.
A better example would be Rest in Peace. You did start to pay the mandatory cost of putting the dragon in the yard, so Scion will copy the (exiled) permanent card.
If you couldn't attempt to return Liliana to the battlefield (if she had somehow been moved somewhere other than exile due to a replacement effect, for instance) then you wouldn't get a zombie.
Last edited by cdr; 08-14-2015 at 05:58 PM.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I disagree with cdr's interpretation.
On Lili, I believe the cost is "exile Liliana, Heretical Healer, then return her to the battlefield transformed under her owner's control." That would mean that attempting to move her from the battlefield (which requires that she be on the battlefield) is all that is necessary to get the token. Note that Lili can return to the battlefield if she was moved to the command zone or another public zone instead of exile, but that's not really relevant here.
Correspondingly, I believe on Scion, the cost is "Search your library for a Dragon permanent card and put it into your graveyard." That would mean searching your library is enough to satisfy 117.12, and Scion would attempt to become a copy of no card. This would be an impossible action, as far as I could tell, and 609.3 would prevent anything from happening.
That seems like a problematic interpretation if we consider the similar templating on all the cards that have "if you do, shuffle your library" in their text. For example flagstones of trokair.
The Rest in Peace example also confuses me. I don't understand how there could be "last known" information for a card in the graveyard when there was never a card in the graveyard.When Flagstones of Trokair is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may search your library for a Plains card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. If you do, shuffle your library.
Scion of the Ur-Dragon under Rest in Peace does not use last known information. It just looks at the card wherever it went, since it doesn't say "the card that was put into your graveyard" or anything like that.
"You may... . If you do, ... ." follows slightly different rules from mandatory actions, though they end up being pretty much equivalent. The standard is choosing to pay an optional cost, or starting to pay a mandatory cost, but you can't choose or start an impossible action.
OK, you're correct there.
The replacement effect is modifying the event - the event never "looks for" the card in the graveyard at all, but rather where the event was modified to move the card. Last known information isn't needed. Last known information would be used if the effect were Wheel of Sun and Moon, since the card is no longer in a public zone (Wheel reveals the card when it's moved to the bottom of the library, so the information is known).The Rest in Peace example also confuses me. I don't understand how there could be "last known" information for a card in the graveyard when there was never a card in the graveyard.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
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