Question about playing Hymn to Tourach and other random effects

[MGB]

So I have a question about random effects in the game, and more specifically, Hymn to Tourach.

Obviously when selecting cards for the Hymn effect we want to do this as randomly as possible. I've seen people roll dice to do this randomly, and I've also seen people just shuffle cards and pick them. I have never cast a Hymn (or any random effect) in Magic in person before, but recently I decided to build a deck that plays four Hymns, so I need to know the most effective (but also stylish) way to do this.

If I roll a 6-sided die, I can call "1-3 for card 1 and 4-6 for card 2" if there are 2 cards in hand, and "1-2 for card 1, 3-4 for card 2, 5-6 for card 3" if there are 3 cards in hand, but then what do I do for 4? Or if I roll 2 6-sided dice, it is fine for hand sizes up to 5, at which point how do you split up 12 results among 5 cards?

For those of you who have cast Hymn to Tourachs (or, say, Hypnotic Specters) in paper tournaments (not online where it is automated for you): what is the best way to do this using dice?

[Julian23]

So I have a question about random effects in the game, and more specifically, Hymn to Tourach.

Obviously when selecting cards for the Hymn effect we want to do this as randomly as possible. I've seen people roll dice to do this randomly, and I've also seen people just shuffle cards and pick them. I have never cast a Hymn (or any random effect) in Magic in person before, but recently I decided to build a deck that plays four Hymns, so I need to know the most effective (but also stylish) way to do this.

If I roll a 6-sided die, I can call "1-3 for card 1 and 4-6 for card 2" if there are 2 cards in hand, and "1-2 for card 1, 3-4 for card 2, 5-6 for card 3" if there are 3 cards in hand, but then what do I do for 4? Or if I roll 2 6-sided dice, it is fine for hand sizes up to 5, at which point how do you split up 12 results among 5 cards?

For those of you who have cast Hymn to Tourachs (or, say, Hypnotic Specters) in paper tournaments (not online where it is automated for you): what is the best way to do this using dice?

Shot answer: use common sense and make sure your opponent agrees to your method before roling.

When there's only 4 cards you specifcy 1-4 as the card and 5+6 as re-roll.

Also note that when you roll 2d6 (2 six-sided dice), there are only eleven, not twelve possible results since you will never roll a 1. Since it's also not a random distribution (e.g. 7 comes up more often than all of the other numbers), rolling 2d6 is not best way to go about it. Also note that drawing cards out of your opponent's hand is something you will only do in casual/practice games, but never in a real tournament.

[cdr]

2d6 is not just "not the best way", it's not legal. Any method of randomness you use to choose random cards needs to have an even distribution.

[MGB]

2d6 is not just "not the best way", it's not legal. Any method of randomness you use to choose random cards needs to have an even distribution.

What's the best way to determine randomness for the purposes of casting Hymn to Tourach in a Competitive REL setting?

Given that a hand of cards could have potentially anywhere from 1 to 7+ cards in it at any given moment.

[genuine fugazi]

This question came up during tournament a few months ago, judge told us just to shuffle cards and let the one casting Hymn to pick two cards.

[decan]

What's the best way to determine randomness for the purposes of casting Hymn to Tourach in a Competitive REL setting?

Given that a hand of cards could have potentially anywhere from 1 to 7+ cards in it at any given moment.

You seem to have some problems... So i break it down for you
In cases of 7 or more cards you use a 20 sided die and use the numbers this way:

• 1-14 for 7 cards in hand
• 1-16 for 8 cards in hand
• 1-18 for 9 cards in hand
• 1-20 for 10 cards in hand

1,2=first card
3,4=second card and so on

Example:
you cast hymn, which resolves. Opp has 8 cards in hand.
Use a 20 sided die.
First die roll 13->choose 7th card.
Second die roll 17->reroll. (since 15-20 is not taken)
third roll 5->third card

So i would suggest getting a 20 sided die before you play with those hymns

[cdr]

What's the best way to determine randomness for the purposes of casting Hymn to Tourach in a Competitive REL setting?

Given that a hand of cards could have potentially anywhere from 1 to 7+ cards in it at any given moment.

I'd suggest an 8+ sided die.

There's probably multiple formulas you can use with 6-sided dice alone to get an even distribution, if you're forced to, but obviously adding them is not going to cut it.

[H]

I play Hymn pretty often.

I used multiple different sided dice to cover most situations.

1-2 cards: doesn't matter, it's their whole hand.
3 cards: 6-sided die, divided by 2.
4 cards: I have a 4-sided die.
5 cards: 6-sided die, reroll 6.
6 cards: 6-sided die.
7 cards: 8-sided die, reroll 8.

I've never cast a Hymn on someone with more than 7 cards in hand, but I carry some 10-sided dice, along with some 20-sided as well.

So, in summary, having a d4, a D6, and a D8 should cover probably 99% of the times you need to roll (if not more).

[MGB]

I play Hymn pretty often.

I used multiple different sided dice to cover most situations.

1-2 cards: doesn't matter, it's their whole hand.
3 cards: 6-sided die, divided by 2.
4 cards: I have a 4-sided die.
5 cards: 6-sided die, reroll 6.
6 cards: 6-sided die.
7 cards: 8-sided die, reroll 8.

I've never cast a Hymn on someone with more than 7 cards in hand, but I carry some 10-sided dice, along with some 20-sided as well.

So, in summary, having a d4, a D6, and a D8 should cover probably 99% of the times you need to roll (if not more).

Thanks for the help.

I think I'll have to invest in a D8 and then use either a D6 or a D8 depending on hand size (using the D6 for 3 cards and the D8 for 4 cards).

[rufus]

Thanks for the help.
...

There's a decent technique for getting a number 1-7 or 1-8 with D6:

1. Roll a D6. Multiply the result by 6.
2. Roll the D6 again. Subtract that from the number you got from step 1.

This will give you a number 0 through 35.

If you want a number 1-7:
Reroll if you get a 35.
If you get a number less than 35, take the remainder when dividing by 7, and add 1.

If you want a number 1-8:
Reroll if you get a number 32-35.
If you get a number less than 32, take the remainder when dividing by 8, and add 1.


These are examples of a more general technique, but I'm not sure what the clearest way to describe it is.

[Julian23]

There's a decent technique for getting a number 1-7 or 1-8 with D6:

1. Roll a D6. Multiply the result by 6.
2. Roll the D6 again. Subtract that from the number you got from step 1.

This will give you a number 0 through 35.

If you want a number 1-7:
Reroll if you get a 35.
If you get a number less than 35, take the remainder when dividing by 7, and add 1.

If you want a number 1-8:
Reroll if you get a number 32-35.
If you get a number less than 32, take the remainder when dividing by 8, and add 1.


These are examples of a more general technique, but I'm not sure what the clearest way to describe it is.

I would love to see someone trying to explain that to their opponent during Round 1 of a Grand Prix.

I have mostly given up on "odd or even?" to determine who goes first because too many people think you're trying to trick them.

[jrsthethird]

This is a little off-topic, but before the age of cell phones (more correctly, before the age where I was allowed to have one), I took my TI-83 calculator to tournaments to keep track of my life. I'm pretty sure I used the RNG function in lieu of rolling dice at that point.

Even though I played Hymn, I doubt I used it for that. Probably just did the ol' shuffle-and-pick technique.

[cdr]

This is a little off-topic, but before the age of cell phones (more correctly, before the age where I was allowed to have one), I took my TI-83 calculator to tournaments to keep track of my life. I'm pretty sure I used the RNG function in lieu of rolling dice at that point.

Even though I played Hymn, I doubt I used it for that. Probably just did the ol' shuffle-and-pick technique.

It's worth noting that now electronic devices "capable of taking and storing notes, communicating with other people, or accessing the internet" are banned from use at competitive / professional REL, which a TI-83 arguably falls under - how many students have cheated on tests with one?

Electronic devices are fine at regular REL as long as they're not used to access strategic information during a match.

[rufus]

I would love to see someone trying to explain that to their opponent during Round 1 of a Grand Prix.

I have mostly given up on "odd or even?" to determine who goes first because too many people think you're trying to trick them.

You can also use the slow method of rolling a die for each card, and taking the one with the highest roll.


Fair enough. The practice of rolling 2D6 that I've seen on streams seems super strange to me.