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Thread: Legacy Lantern

  1. #381

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    In its essence, lantern is a hard control.
    Lantern isn't really a control deck -- It's a prison deck. At the surface, these kind of decks seem to have the same goal (keep the opponent from playing their good stuff, and winning from there), but their approaches are very different. Hard control wants to have a lot of cards (namely, counterspells/removal) to simply remove or react to whatever the opponent casts, and land a big beater or something like that and win very quickly from there. Prison decks (generally) look for a specific set of cards to create a hardlock or psuedo-hardlock and slowly eek their way towards a win condition while the opponent simply cannot do anything in response.

    Even these descriptions sound very similar, but a prison deck doesn't really need card advantage to win in the same way a control deck does. If a prison deck can create its lock with protection, it is almost guaranteed to win if the right plays are made, because the opponent should be able to do very little to stop it. Of course, in Legacy (regarding the Lantern lock specifically) the lock is not nearly as much of a 'hardlock' due to cards like Brainstorm being in the format, but take that as you will.

    I'm not saying Predict/SV would be bad in the deck, but I just wanted to bring this up as it's still an important differentiation between a deck like Lantern and a typical hard control deck, since evaluating card choices in a prison deck vs a hard control is rather different.

  2. #382
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by niv View Post
    Lantern isn't really a control deck -- It's a prison deck. At the surface, these kind of decks seem to have the same goal (keep the opponent from playing their good stuff, and winning from there), but their approaches are very different. Hard control wants to have a lot of cards (namely, counterspells/removal) to simply remove or react to whatever the opponent casts, and land a big beater or something like that and win very quickly from there. Prison decks (generally) look for a specific set of cards to create a hardlock or psuedo-hardlock and slowly eek their way towards a win condition while the opponent simply cannot do anything in response.

    Even these descriptions sound very similar, but a prison deck doesn't really need card advantage to win in the same way a control deck does. If a prison deck can create its lock with protection, it is almost guaranteed to win if the right plays are made, because the opponent should be able to do very little to stop it. Of course, in Legacy (regarding the Lantern lock specifically) the lock is not nearly as much of a 'hardlock' due to cards like Brainstorm being in the format, but take that as you will.

    I'm not saying Predict/SV would be bad in the deck, but I just wanted to bring this up as it's still an important differentiation between a deck like Lantern and a typical hard control deck, since evaluating card choices in a prison deck vs a hard control is rather different.
    Very well put.

  3. #383
    bruizar
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by niv View Post
    Lantern isn't really a control deck -- It's a prison deck. At the surface, these kind of decks seem to have the same goal (keep the opponent from playing their good stuff, and winning from there), but their approaches are very different. Hard control wants to have a lot of cards (namely, counterspells/removal) to simply remove or react to whatever the opponent casts, and land a big beater or something like that and win very quickly from there. Prison decks (generally) look for a specific set of cards to create a hardlock or psuedo-hardlock and slowly eek their way towards a win condition while the opponent simply cannot do anything in response.

    Even these descriptions sound very similar, but a prison deck doesn't really need card advantage to win in the same way a control deck does. If a prison deck can create its lock with protection, it is almost guaranteed to win if the right plays are made, because the opponent should be able to do very little to stop it. Of course, in Legacy (regarding the Lantern lock specifically) the lock is not nearly as much of a 'hardlock' due to cards like Brainstorm being in the format, but take that as you will.

    I'm not saying Predict/SV would be bad in the deck, but I just wanted to bring this up as it's still an important differentiation between a deck like Lantern and a typical hard control deck, since evaluating card choices in a prison deck vs a hard control is rather different.
    You're correct and I recall these discussions on the salvation modern lantern page as well. I'm not quiet sure why I ended up writing that it is hard control deck instead of hard prison, perhaps because the legacy variant has evolved so much over time that many control elements snuck into the list, but it was an oversight on my part.

  4. #384

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    You're correct and I recall these discussions on the salvation modern lantern page as well. I'm not quiet sure why I ended up writing that it is hard control deck instead of hard prison, perhaps because the legacy variant has evolved so much over time that many control elements snuck into the list, but it was an oversight on my part.
    Because, in an unfortunate twist of Magic jargon, prison and control fall under the archetypal umbrella of "Control", hence it is accurate and inaccurate to say that Lantern is a Control deck. That said most lantern decks have an element of control to them: if Miracles is (was) Control-Prison, Lantern is Prison-Control, both are never quite the whole deal the say draw-go was just control or STAX is just prison.

    Also, clarification: the concept of card advantage early on in magic was expressed in terms of prison elements. Moat creates an enormous amount of card advantage, not only effectively "killing" "all" your opponent's creatures but also "killing" the remainder in their deck. Prison in fact cares quite a bit about card advantage, it just doesn't look the same as "control".
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  5. #385
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Anyone been getting in any games?

  6. #386

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    No, not until Tuesday. I was thinking of getting it on mtgo despite no field of dreams, but helm is expensive, and 4 RIP is too, so no go online.

    Anyone have any input on land tax? It can give a free scry every turn and of course plays well with brainstorm. I want to play a 1-of.

  7. #387

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Looking forward to playing lantern soon. Can anyone refresh me with how the revealed top of the library works with brainstorm? Does each card of the three drawn get revealed? Does the 4th card down? And then the two put back?

  8. #388

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by The Nobodys View Post
    Looking forward to playing lantern soon. Can anyone refresh me with how the revealed top of the library works with brainstorm? Does each card of the three drawn get revealed? Does the 4th card down? And then the two put back?
    yes, yes, and kind of, respectively.

    First two are somewhat intuitive - drawing cards is always done separately (120.2). And 4th card should since you actually draw the cards, it changes library state and reveal should be done. However, when you put back, they're put back at the same time so second card from the top will be unknown to your opponent but (obviously) he will know the top card.

  9. #389

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Heres a gameplay video

    I still think the deck wants fast mana.. i need some mox opals but they are very pricey on MTGO

  10. #390
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Anyone still playing this?

    I played Lantern in Modern until I sold out of the format. It would be interesting to see if a Legacy version could work.
    Here's a deck list I came up with. Still a work in progress and the side board isn't complete.

    Main Deck (60)

    Spells (40)
    3 Field of Dreams
    3 Innocent Blood
    3 Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3 Thoughtseize
    4 Codex Shredder
    4 Lantern of Insight
    4 Energy Field
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Helm of Obedience
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    3 Leyline of the Void
    3 Force of Will

    Lands (20)
    1 Academy Ruins
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Swamp

    Sideboard (7)
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
    2 Back to Basics
    1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation

    It's UB, lots of discard, prison/lock pieces and uses Tezzaret as a win con (worked good for me in Modern).
    Play All The Decks!

  11. #391
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    can you explain 4 energy field? it doesn't combo with leyline of the void.
    -rob

  12. #392
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    can you explain 4 energy field? it doesn't combo with leyline of the void.
    Honestly, no haha.
    I saw it in previous lists and thought it was interesting. I could certainly remove it for something else.
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  13. #393
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwathnar View Post
    Honestly, no haha.
    I saw it in previous lists and thought it was interesting. I could certainly remove it for something else.
    You could play Planar Void instead. It's like a black Rest in Peace.

  14. #394
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by gngpostalsrvc View Post
    You could play Planar Void instead. It's like a black Rest in Peace.
    actually that's not true. with planar void, the cards do hit the graveyard, which would kill energy field. rest in peace is a replacement effect.
    -rob

  15. #395

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    I played some legacy recently after a long hiatus, (played Tezzerator), and the experience left me wanting to play lantern again. Tezz is great, but I play Tezz in modern so I like to mix it up.

    @Gwathnar - Your list looks a little shaky, in that there are not enough blue cards for force of will, and of course energy field needs rest in peace. I don't think lantern needs innocent blood, either, as bridge and field are more than enough creature protection. Liliana, I was told a few weeks ago when I played 3 in Tezz, is not great in the current legacy meta, but I'm not convinced she isn't good in a prison shell. She was OK in my few games with her.

    I'll probably brew a little today, but my recent experiences with playing Whir of Invention are that the card is phenomenal and should probably be played in a legacy lantern list. I think my core will look a little something like:

    1 Welding Jar
    2 Mox Opal

    1 Field of Dreams
    4 Lantern of Insight
    3 Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3 Codex Shredder

    1 Pithing Needle
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Energy Field
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Helm of Obedience

    4 Whir of Invention
    1 Enlightened Tutor

    2 Unexpectedly Absent

    I think finding cards to combat quick combo (thoughtseize, IoK), chalice and other problem permanent decks (more unexpectedly absent), and czech pile, (protection cards like jar or something), is the tricky part.

  16. #396
    bruizar
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by The Nobodys View Post
    I played some legacy recently after a long hiatus, (played Tezzerator), and the experience left me wanting to play lantern again. Tezz is great, but I play Tezz in modern so I like to mix it up.

    @Gwathnar - Your list looks a little shaky, in that there are not enough blue cards for force of will, and of course energy field needs rest in peace. I don't think lantern needs innocent blood, either, as bridge and field are more than enough creature protection. Liliana, I was told a few weeks ago when I played 3 in Tezz, is not great in the current legacy meta, but I'm not convinced she isn't good in a prison shell. She was OK in my few games with her.

    I'll probably brew a little today, but my recent experiences with playing Whir of Invention are that the card is phenomenal and should probably be played in a legacy lantern list. I think my core will look a little something like:

    1 Welding Jar
    2 Mox Opal

    1 Field of Dreams
    4 Lantern of Insight
    3 Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3 Codex Shredder

    1 Pithing Needle
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Energy Field
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Helm of Obedience

    4 Whir of Invention
    1 Enlightened Tutor

    2 Unexpectedly Absent

    I think finding cards to combat quick combo (thoughtseize, IoK), chalice and other problem permanent decks (more unexpectedly absent), and czech pile, (protection cards like jar or something), is the tricky part.

    I think Seal Away could play a part in the list. Instant speed spot removal that doesn't break energy field. To defend against discard, play Leyline or Divert. Against Storm, I'd board in damping sphere. I think Padeem is better than Welding Jar, since you're trying to defend against repetitive artifact hate like ancient grudge. IMO Even Spellskite is better because it helps absorb some attacks before it dies.

  17. #397
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by The Nobodys View Post

    @Gwathnar - Your list looks a little shaky, in that there are not enough blue cards for force of will, and of course energy field needs rest in peace. I don't think lantern needs innocent blood, either, as bridge and field are more than enough creature protection. Liliana, I was told a few weeks ago when I played 3 in Tezz, is not great in the current legacy meta, but I'm not convinced she isn't good in a prison shell. She was OK in my few games with her.
    Yea, It's certainly a pile of hot garbage haha. I've got to look at it more.

    I play mostly in paper and personally find Liliana to be decent. Usually a 2 for 1.
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  18. #398

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Why not merge Lantern and Painter together? Grindstone partially works with both sides of the combos, but I think Whir of Invention is the real key here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

  19. #399
    bruizar
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    I will be bringing this to a tournament next week:


    2x Choke
    2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    3x Thoughtseize
    1x Collective Brutality
    2x Inquisition of Kozilek
    1x Abrupt Decay
    3x Whir of Invention
    2x Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Field of Dreams
    4x Lantern of Insight
    3x Pithing Needle
    4x Mox Opal
    1x Flaying Tendrils
    4x Ancient Stirrings
    1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Witchbane Orb
    1x Cursed Totem
    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
    1x Academy Ruins
    4x Spire of Industry
    4x Glimmervoid
    3x Darkslick Shores
    2x Botanical Sanctum
    1x Inventors' Fair
    2x Ipnu Rivulet
    1x Scavenger Grounds

    SB
    1x Spellskite
    1x Welding Jar
    1x Sphere of Resistance (this should be damping sphere, but I don't have it)
    1x Defense Grid
    1x Golgari Charm
    1x Engineered Plague
    1x Choke
    1x The Abyss
    1x Arcane Laboratory
    1x Surgical Extraction
    1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
    1x Kolaghan's Command
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Relic of Progenitus
    1x Flusterstorm


    Cuts and Missing Cards
    I think I need 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Invasive Surgery in the sideboard and the maindeck is 61 cards but I don't want to cut Ashiok nor the Flaying Tendrils from the list. Perhaps cut 1 card and put the Surgical in the maindeck, then put Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.

    Gurmag Angler transformational
    I was flirting with the idea of sideboard Gurmag Anglers, using codex shredder as mana ramp, but didn't find enough sideboard space to do so.

    Predict vs Ancient Grudge
    I also tested Predict and found it to be a lot less exciting than Ancient Stirrings since you really need to have Field of Dreams or Lantern of Insight in play for it to be any good, and it costs 2 mana instead of 1.

    Devoid & Flaying Tendrils
    The Flaying Tendrils is sweet because you can hit it off of Ancient Stirrings and deal with almost every non-reanimation or SNT target in legacy. It exiles cards like Bloodghast, deals with True Name Nemesis and kills Deathrite Shaman and Delvers without feeding the graveyard for Gurmag Angler. Crumble to Dust similarly, could also be used against Dark Depths but I think it's a bit too slow.

    Fastland & Choke
    The manabase is optimized for use with Choke. Choke can deal with a lot of decks by itself and having 2 means we can often shred it away if we don't need it.

    Deserts vs Artifact Land
    I am very split on whether or not I should gog with Ipnu Rivulet + Scavenger Grounds or use Seat of the Synod. I don't like Seat of the Synod too much because I am afraid Fiery Confluence will hurt me ever harder, but Seat does turn on Mox Opal very reliably which could be much more important than having the maindeck GY removal.

    The Ipnu Rivulet and the Scavenger Grounds are better than Bojuka bog because we need UUU for Whir of Invention and we don't want to start of with a tapped bojuka bog, but open with an untapped land so we can at least get a millrock or lantern online. It also gives us 3 maindeck graveyard exile effects, since you can sacrifice the Rivulet for Scavenger Grounds to exile the yards and keep Tarmogoyfs 0/1, or prevent delve spells (Angler) from being cast. Ipnu Rivulet can also be used in a pinch to mill your opponent for 4.
    Last edited by bruizar; 06-17-2018 at 03:16 PM.

  20. #400
    bruizar
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    I ended up ditching the inventor's fair for a karakas and ended up boarding it out. I also switched pyroclasm for flaying tendrils #2

    My matches were as follows:

    1) Infect 0-2
    G1 I assemble the lock and needle down inkmoth nexus. I remove a couple of glistener elves and Blighted Agents, and let a berserk slide since he doesn't have pump spells in hand. At some point he manages to get an infect creature, so I try to keep all the pump spells away. He somehow shows an Invigorate and throws his berserk at it as well. This has me puzzled since I had perfect information. He says he drew it from a Gitaxian Probe but I'm pretty sure I should have seen it if that was the case.
    G2 I die quickly

    2) Arena Rector Nicfit 0-2
    G1 Game was a bit of a struggle, I needle down a Liliana of the Veil and I believe also a Jace? At some point, I just lose to beats since I was so occupied fending off Pernicious Deed and planeswalkers.
    G2 This was a terrible. I felt like I needed 8 pithing needles. At some point I was facing down Nicol Bolas, Ugin and Teferi at the same time. I had 2 Flaying Tendrils but he never played his rectors without killing them before passing the turn, so I died :-)

    3) Parralax Wave Brew 1-2
    G1 I win pretty easily
    G2 I keep a hand with IOK, Thoughtseize and Collective Brutality. He opens with a Leyline of Sanctity. I end up using IOK on myself to discard cards so that Ensnaring Bridge can get online sooner, but it wasn't soon enough.
    G3 Game takes a while, I assembled a full lock but he has a bunch of 1/1 tokens which is easily lethal if my hand doesn't empty for the bridgge I have in play. I have a Leovold in hand but only 2 lands in play that produce the right colored mana without taking damage since I'm on 1 life. Leyline of Sanctity is in play again, I see that I will draw a collective brutality. I try to escalate it shooting down a token, and draining 2 life, but that doesn't work due to Leyline of Sanctitity and I end up losing the game with an uncastable Leovold in hand. My next card would have been a Glimmervoid which would have allowed me to cast the Leovold and win the game. Very unfortunate...

    4) Bomberman 2-0
    G1 I needle down auriok salvager, assemble the lock, needle walking ballista and needle down karn, scion of urza. Ensnaring bridge spells was tricky. I'm with a leovold stuck in hand since he bounced it with Karakas, but he plays chalice for 3 without realize he could get under my bridge, so I play Leovold and let chalice get rid of it.
    G2 This was really interestingg. He opens with a turn 1 explosives on 1, I open with a pithing needle. A few turns later he also has a ratchet bomb with 1 counter on it, and I have a mox opal, nihil spellbomb and ensnaring bridge. I surgicalled the lodestone bauble in his graveyard because that card can force me to draw cards allowing him to attack through bridge later on. I have academy ruins, and he plays tormod's crypt. He blows up the Ratchet Bomb and kills my needle. At some point he cracks tormod's crypt and I academy ruins in response to get back needle. I draw a needle, and pin down the explosives again and his Karn. A few turns later I whir for 1 more needle naming Auriok Salvagers and whir a bit later for Witchbane Orb to shut down the direct damage of Walking Ballista, but not before he shoots me for 6 with it and then concedes.

    5) Miracles 1-0
    G1 This game took 45 minutes. He opened with a Flooded Strand, I opened with a needle, he doesn't fight over it nor crack his fetch so I name Flooded Strand. The turn after I was able to get Lantern of Insight and Codex Shredder online, see a snapcaster mage and decide to mill it. He brainstorms and I surgical his brainstorm (seeing one on the top of his library). With the surgical I saw that his win conditions were: 3 Jace, 3 Monastery Mentor, couple of Snapcasters. His answers are Engineered Explosives and Counsels Judgment. No Entreat.

    I control him for a while, expanding my board state to Field of Dreams, Ensnaring Bridge, pithing needle on flooded strand, Lantern of Insight, Codex Shredder and Ipnu Rivulet (amongst other lands). He was able to find a Predict which he used against me, throwing a needle in my graveyard. He then casts a Jace with 2 Tundra, 1 Island, 1 Plains. I play Choke. He brainstorms once with Jace and then plusses to go for ult. I have a needle on Jace, and the game goes a bit longer. He Counsel's Judgments my needle on jace, and jace continues to go up. I find academy ruin, play it, jace goes +2 one more time on 13 loyalty, I activate Academy Ruins, take the turn and play it naming Jace. I Codex Shredder his Explosives and he concedes.


    Findings
    I feel like I want some more draw. The Cursed Totem should be exchanged for a maindeck Drop of Honey and I want an extra Surgical Extraction too.

    My sideboard also needs some changes. I'm thinking of adding 1 Hex Parasite to punish Planeswalkers, keep vials down, and get rid of chalice of the void. I also want to try Fathom Feeder in the sideboard and I'm thinking of Search for Azcanta and Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator to get virtual card advantage via codex shredders and also reuse my Ipnu Rivulets. I'm also wondering whether or not Rootwater Thief can be a good sideboard option to proactively remove sideboard cards against us. Probably these are all not good enough but I still want to test it.

    All in all I was super happy with the desert package. Ipnu Rivulet really helped me get multiple consecutive mills and Scavenging Grounds gave me 3 maindeck Relic Of Progenitus effects. I used to play Duskmantle, but the problem is that you need untapped blue mana for Whir of Invention. Ipnu Rivulet does this. Ifnir Dreadlands or Grasping Dunes are probably not good enough.

    Collective Brutality really screwed me over. That will get replaced by Surgical.
    Choke was brutal. If you're playing non-duals, you really have to play Choke. There was only 1 situation where I missed duals, and that was when I was too low on life to cast leovold.

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