Appetite for Brains could also be considered if you're going down this path. Bonus points for giving the deck more Halloween art for the upcoming holiday.
Last edited by Fox; 10-06-2015 at 11:52 AM.
It also happens to shut down the core engine of the deck, in addition to all of its key spells. Even as a defensive addition it's too anti-synergistic give the longevity of games can play out. Clearly, you wouldn't drop it in the first few turns - I get that. Unfortunately, that's really where cantrips shine to setup the mid-game and sculpt early enough. So playing a mid to late game Chalice isn't really doing anything anyhow and you're better off continuing the path of milling an opponent out slowly as usual.
This thread is cool so I thought I would contribute my take:
4 Baleful Strix
4 Codex Shredder
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Field of Dreams
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
Sideboard 15
2 Flusterstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Engineered Plague
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Misdirection
I was looking for ways to empty the hand for Bridge in versions running Counters and found Gustha's Scepter. It can also be used to protect important pieces against discard spells like Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach.
If I wanted to use Force of Will, I'd probably use Transmute Artifact to have more blue cards. It could be good with things like Tooth of Chiss-Goria that is free to cast, but can be transmuted to a Bridge or any other needed artifact (Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Ethersworn Canonist, Cursed Totem, Defense Grid, Trinisphere, Orbs of Warding).
@shadowgripper
Against Jund, Leyline of Sanctity seems really good against discard spells, Liliana and Punishing Fire.
So basically the Scepter is there just to protect against spot discard? I can also see it working very well against the aggro matchup as a way to attempt to empty your hand, but in the white splash version, Peace of Mind works better because you can dump your hand while gaining life.
Fun is a zero-sum game in Magic. Therefore, Prison is the best archetype.
I was eyeing Serum Powder myself. Helps your openers, and this deck can get mill them before you draw any.
Maybe. But Serum Powder wasn't really made for this deck. It may help the opening hand, but it's not going to drastically give you an upper hand like in other decks it's in, such as Leylines.
Fun is a zero-sum game in Magic. Therefore, Prison is the best archetype.
Fun is a zero-sum game in Magic. Therefore, Prison is the best archetype.
Well, you aren't actually ever drawing Serum Powder with Ghoulcaller's Bell, Codex Shredder and Lantern of Insight shuffles... The point is to just maximize your mulligans which also make sideboarded Leylines a lot more reliable (ergo LotV against dredge, LoS against burn).
That seems naive - there is always a chance you can draw into on your first turn, and then you have a dead card in your hand the entire time.
Speaking of dead cards - in my testing, if you are trying to run Force of Will, you need to run some discard effects to get rid of it for Ensnaring Bridge, as such I found Chrome Mox to be a great solution.
Additionally - I have found double white hard for Unexpectedly Absent - and I've been thinking about Metamorphose. The idea is that its easy to cast, it functions as Unexpectedly Absent that can hit lands - and that after discard and with bridge in play nothing they can drop really matters.
Current Test list is: (Blue count only 16 - I hated the sliver - it was only good as a turn 1 Mill Rock or a 3rd Mill Rock. As a Mill Rock after turn 1 or as the 2nd Mill Rock it's summoning sickness was brutal. Not even counting the whole issue with removal. Anyway the difference between 16 and 20 blue cards is 3.3% of getting Force and another blue card in your hand turn 1 [16: 32.6% vs 20: 35.9%], so you're losing roughly 4 more games out of a hundred against turn 1 combo type decks.)
Latern with Force Test List no.2
4x Enlightened tutor
4x Codex Shredder
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Field of Dreams
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize
4x Metamorphose
2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
2x Mox Opal
2x Pithing Needle
2x Chrome Mox
2x Lantern
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Pyxis of Pandemonium
10x Other Lands
2x City of Traitors
2x Academy Ruins
Points of notes are:
1) IMO deck runs way to little lands - would really prefer 2-3 more lands.
2) Force is really useful to have - it has saved me multiple times. Running more blue, would obviously be a plus.
3) Cabal Therapy is better than Duress in my testing - with Probe/lantern/metagame knowledge it is extremely good.
4) I really like enlightened tutor compared to stirrings.
5) running 1 Surgical is hard - wish I had room for 2
6) running 7 mill rocks is fine if you are running tutor.
7) Fields over lantern in the 4/2 split is fine, but I occasionally miss the lantern's reshuffle ability
8) Metamorphose is better than I thought it would be.
9) 6 discard plus 4 force is enough protection IMO. Thinking of cutting 1 thoughtseize for a land or surgical.
10) Again, biggest issue is that 14 lands leaves little room for artifact lands - which leaves little room for Opal. At this point Opal can be made into more lands. Chrome may be cut to 1, and if necessary can be tutored into to discard force to protect yourself under bridge.
11) While I think we run too little land - now that the deck doesn't need to provide double white or BG for one spell, makes it feel a lot smoother.
Good catch on Metamorphose. I wonder how often/likely I want access to this over Abrupt Decay. Specifically, what cards does it hit that decay can't (and that needle cant hit).
Nothing much (except lands if you want to screw with people even more) - the only pluses are 1) you don't have to run green anymore and 2) it pitches to force. Thus if you are not running force, or enlightened tutor (to replace stirrings) decay is preferable, and if you are not running force but are running tutor then Unexpectedly absent is preferable.
I ended up playing this in the 5k last Sunday at the SCG Open in Indy.
The list that I ended up registering is below:
4 Lantern of Insight
3 Field of Dreams
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Mox Opal
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tree of Tales
2 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Torpor Orb
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Welding Jar
1 Sun Droplet
1 Cursed Scroll
Starting off the discussion, I ended up doing pretty poorly, finishing 3-5, but I learned a lot in the process. My matches were as follows:
Rd 1: Enchantress (L) - Didn't preemptively needle Helm of Obedience and was punished.
Rd 2: RUG Delver (W) - This seems like a reasonable matchup.
Rd 3: MUD (W) - I was able to keep him off of chalice, and needle is great here.
Rd 4: RUG (L) - I'm bad, played worse, lost. He had a maindeck grudge.
Rd 5: Merfolk (L) - literally drew zero lands this match. Awkward. This feels like a great matchup.
Rd 6: Omnitell (L) - I stipped his hand, but couldnt get a lock assembled in time both games.
Rd 7: GW Painter (W) - This deck was awesome. I crushed it, but thats not the point.
Rd 8: MUD (L) - Game three he led on chalice 1 into 3sphere, I was just too far behind to empty my hand behind a bridge.
So, the first thing that needs to be addressed is that the deck is probably 1 mana short. I'm going to go back to playing a city of traitors. The extra mana will be a petal going in over a surgical. you only need one of that card realisically.
Next up was that the sideboard was abysmal. I boarded in the decay a LOT, and I really wanted more seals against chalices and such. This list is where I think I'm going to be at going forward.
4 Lantern of Insight
3 Field of Dreams
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tree of Tales
2 Academy Ruins
1 City of Traitors
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Seal of Primordium
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Arcane Laboratory
Transmute Artifact seems like a nutty card to rebuild around, but requires a heavier blue commitment. It will be tested soon.
Can you list off the cards named, should have named, with Pithing Needle for the matchups you listed?
Do you think 4 needles is needed or would 3 needles work? Same question for 7 lanterns or just 6? And I can probably agree with you that 8 discard spells is just fine, vs 7 discard spells.
Would maindeck Welding Jar be useful you think? Modern typically has Spellskite as a catch all, but unsure if we need that here.
Why the increase of Flusterstorm in the board? What are you worried about? Would Negate not be sufficient?
Curious how we can beat MUD, what are their angles of attack?
I think we want some number of Golgari Charm to handle D&T and Elves. Those can be brutal.
I was thinking in decks running Force of Will and possibly other counters, so it can hide the counters that are stuck in your hand to prevent creatures from attacking if you have a Bridge. The nice thing about scepter over Peace of Mind is that it can return the card to your hand. Being an artifact means more synergy with Mox Opal and Academy Ruins.
@Cire
Really nice catch on Metamorphose!
Unexpectedly Absent can be cast for 1WW to get rid of Counterbalance (Miracles has few cards with CMC 3), but despite that I think Metamorphose is better because it's easier to cast. I'll have to test.
I also really like Cabal Therapy, maybe we could run a Kher Keep to use the flashback?
Has Dakra Mystic been tried?
Originally Posted by GreenMycon
Why would it be? It's a worse Cathartic Adept / Screeching Sliver. And I did test the sliver, my testing showed that it was only good as a turn 1 Mill Rock or a 3rd Mill Rock. As a Mill Rock after turn 1 or as the 2nd Mill Rock it's summoning sickness was brutal. Not even counting the whole issue with removal. The only plus to running it was to inflate your blue count - but the 3.3% gain the preventing first turn plays (chance to have Force plus another blue card if you have the following number of blue cards including force in your hand turn 1: 16: 32.6% vs 20: 35.9%) was not worth how bad it was compared to regular mill rocks.
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