This is my revised list:
2x Choke
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Abrupt Decay
3x Whir of Invention
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Field of Dreams
4x Lantern of Insight
3x Pithing Needle
3x Mox Opal
1x Flaying Tendrils
4x Ancient Stirrings
1x Drop of Honey
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Codex Shredder
2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
1x Academy Ruins
4x Spire of Industry
4x Glimmervoid
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Botanical Sanctum
2x Ipnu Rivulet
1x Scavenger Grounds
Cool iteration of lantern. Looks like you've been going for more prison pieces that hate on a different axis, like Choke, and Leovold, and surgical main deck. How has Leovold been? He turns off brainstorm and ponders, sure, but he isn't coming down until turn 3 usually. Having a creature main deck that turns on your opponent's removal, even if it does replace itself, seems like a lock piece that isn't very sticky.
How has the mana-base of all non-basics worked out for you? Blood Moon and Wasteland could be problematic. I think one of the advantages of UW can be all the basics you can run to ensure you cast your stuff with your low land-count. Of course, you give up choke. But as I understand it, we're happy as a lantern deck giving our opponent all the mana in the world as long as we're keeping them off payoff spells.
Any reason no Brainstorm? You're not running fetchlands, but you can use your mill rocks to filter, and stirrings also does the trick.
So after a low of tinkering I finally took my AI Lantern list to our local legacy tourney. I went 4-1 with my only loss to Infect (which seems close to unwinnable)
Artifact (27)
4x Codex Shredder
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Lantern of Insight
2x Lotus Petal
1x Meekstone
4x Mox Opal
1x Pacification Array
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
1x Welding Jar
Land (17)
1x Academy Ruins
2x Flooded Strand
1x Inventors' Fair
5x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Underground Sea
Instant (10)
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Pierce
3x Whir of Invention
Enchantment (6)
3x Artificer's Intuition
2x Counterbalance
1x Field of Dreams
Sideboard (15)
1x Damping Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Executioner's Capsule
2x Expel from Orazca
2x Flusterstorm
1x Meekstone
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Welding Jar
R1 - Shardless BUG: W
R2 - Infect: L
R3 - UW Spirits: W
R4 - Nyx Fit: W
R5 - Eldrazi: W
hey, newly interested in this archetype in legacy, played modern lantern a little before and after eldrazi winter so I have some experience with the archetype, but not in legacy of course
My rough draft list:
// 60 Maindeck
// 23 Artifact
4 Lantern of Insight
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Cursed Scroll
4 Mox Opal
1 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
// 7 Enchantment
3 Counterbalance
2 Field of Dreams
2 Artificer's Intuition
// 7 Instant
4 Brainstorm
3 Whir of Invention
// 19 Land
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Inventors' Fair
// 4 Sorcery
4 Ancient Stirrings
// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Back to Basics
// 7 Instant
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
// 3 Land
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
I thought the crop rotation package could be interesting out of the sideboard. We could also add Expedition Map somewhere to grab off Artificer's Intuition. My friend wanted to add in Life from the Loam and Wasteland/Ghost Quarter somewhere too - I think that might be too cute but maybe it's worth it?
A major question I have is - is black worth it?
I had a hard time fitting in black and justifying it, but there are a lot of good black cards; Leovold, Thoughtseize/Duress, Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy, Toxic Deluge(?), Chains of Mephistopheles, Abyss etc.
Leovold seemed bad to me since it turns on removal, and will always eat removal since it's the only creature - but then it's still drawing me a card, and might be necessary against brainstorm?
Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy seem like good catch all answers, Decay specifically against miracles
Deluge would 100% be a 1 of in the sideboard, and even then, we're a bridge deck so I don't think it's necessary
Chains seems meh in general, but again, brainstorm
----
As for my actual list:
4 lanterns, as per usual
3 Bridges, everyone runs 3 now, I'm not 100% a fan of not running the 4th but 3 whirs, 4 ancient stirrings, and 4 brainstorms should be enough
3 Pyxis, Sneak and Show is prevalent so I want to be able to easily mill a Emrakul, and graveyard decks are annoying too. Maybe this should be 4
1 Cursed scroll, a tutor target, great against weenie decks (d&t, elves, etc)
4 Mox opals, speed
1 Codex Shredders/4 Ghoulcaller's bells, I dont know what the right number of mill rocks is so sticking with this number for now
1 Engineered Explosives, Tutor target, good general answer
1 Meekstone, Tutor target, soft bridge effect
2 Pithing needles, necessary in this format, might even want more in the SB
3 Counterbalance, great for locking decks with low cmcs (delver, elves, etc)
2 Field of dreams, Lantern 5-6, maybe only need 1?
2 Artificer's Intuition, Tutor ability, maybe go up on this
4 Brainstorm, op op op
4 Ancient Stirrings, one of the main reasons to play artifacts
3 Whir, Tutor but super expensive - maybe should be Transmute Artifact? Haven't played with Transmute so I didn't want to put it in yet without testing the deck like this first.
1 Academy ruins, standard recursion land - maybe should be 2
1 Inventors' Fair, standard tutor land, there isn't really much straight up aggro in the format so I felt like it isn't worth running multiple copies, maybe it should be 2
SB:
2 Padeem, only creature in list so hopefully they side out removal - protects my artifacts against stuff like k-command, and ancient grudge, and decay
1 tormods crypt, tutorable gy hate
2 back to basics, some decks just can't beat it, and we run enough fetches and basics and artifact mana that it shouldn't hurt too badly
4 crop rotation, might be too cute, but gives us the ability to pivot and be more versatile g2 and 3
3 surgical, more gy and combo hate, might unnecessary
1 karakas, tutor land, good against fatty decks
1 tabby, tutor land, good against weenie decks
1 Bojuka bog, tutor land, good against gy decks
----
Cards I'm NOT running:
Lotus Petal - Seemed unnecessary but maybe the explosiveness is necessary in this format? Would rather just run Mox Diamond, though
Mox Diamond - Land count isn't that high, and our color restrictions aren't severe, and our cmc is generally pretty low
Grove/Punishing Fire - I prefer the Cursed Scroll tutor but maybe punishing fire is better - it is better against infect if you can get the combo out early enough.
Damping Sphere - Storm seems low in the meta right now, and I feel like we might have a good storm match up? Not sure though.
Pacification Array - Seemed interesting in a more Back to Basics/Meekstone reliant build. Will have to test it eventually
Artifact Lands - Didn't want to make myself more hateable by artifact destruction/wasteland
Welding Jar - Felt weaker than what I was running already, maybe it's still worth it though.
Countermagic - I've never been a fan of counterspells + Bridge
JTMS/Tezz/Planeswalkers - They all felt a little slow. I could be convinced on Jace, but I feel like Tezz is generally win more.
Baleful Strix - not in black, but the ability to trade with a creature and cantrip is great
Ponder - Feel like brainstorm is better for this deck, but could be wrong.
Drop of Honey - Since we're a bridge deck, don't think it's necessary, but could be wrong
Witchbane Orb - Should probably find a spot for this, not sure how to fit it in yet though
Spellskite/Welding Jar - Felt worse than other cards, could be good
Life from the loam - seemed too cute
Wasteland/GQ/Port - Since we're super grindy with a very weak clock, I felt these cards rarely help much. We typically land flood our opponents too, but maybe in legacy where land counts are lower, we could land screw instead?
Crucible - No wasteland/gq so not in
Sai, Master Thopterist - seems slow in this format, but might be insane
RIP/Helm/Force Field - Not in white, but seems like a interesting if we wanted to switch from bridge
Beast Within - Assassin's Trophy without black - seems slow though
Grafdigger's Cage - not too scared of elves/maverick/gsz decks atm, maybe wrong
Noway green for stirring is worth. Just play ponder, its better with CB. Thoughtseize is great to sculpt your denial plan with. Also let you play strix go buy time.
I really believe it's time to take another look at this deck simply because the Cantrip Cartel, Ponder, Preordain, and BS, all have fits dealing with WAR Narset. Quite simply, it seems like a great idea to run the Lantern or even Whir shell, and have at least a pair of Narsets around to ensure your opponent can only draw one card at a time, all the time.
That being said, the RIP + Force Field combo still works wonders in this type of deck, so I'm all for using that to stop all damage shenanigans. It also gives you an easy Helm of Obedience as your kill, if you can't wait to mill your opponent out.
A massive printing for lantern in core2020
Short update. I'm working on an Esper direction with Scheming Symmetry and Teferi, Time Raveler. Teferi can turn Scheming Symmetry into an instant, which is of massive importance because you can get a Codex Shredder and mill your opponent's target without it getting countered because of Teferi's static ability. I want to run a singleton Wishclaw Talisman to bounce it with Teferi, but I'm not sure if that card is efficient enough.
4x Teferi, Time Raveler
4x Scheming Symmetry
1x Wishclaw Talisman
Terminus becomes much better with Scheming Symmetry, and Mystic Sanctuary is a nice land to get an extra miracle out of Terminus. With Teferi, we don't need green for Abrupt Decay anymore, and we also don't need Ancient Stirrings. That means we can still run the Energy Field + RIP combo while also getting access to great discard spells
interesting additions
i have had incredible success with my latest mono blue (slight splash) list.
//Artifact (30)
4 Codex Shredder
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Defense Grid
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Lantern of Insight
2 Lotus Petal
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Opal
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Welding Jar
//Enchantment (4)
2 Artificer's Intuition
2 Field of Dreams
//Instant (3)
3 Whir of Invention
//Planeswalker (3)
3 Narset, Parter of Veils
//Sorcery (2)
2 Transmute Artifact
//Land (18)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Glimmervoid
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Spire of Industry
SB: 1 Damping Sphere
SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Executioner's Capsule
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Metamorphose
SB: 2 Oko, Thief of Crowns
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sun Droplet
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
Pretty sure this deck wants 3-4x Scheming Symmetry.
You mill their top card making it completely 1-sided. The deck is already running toolbox singletons and some tutors. Why not run a 1-mana tutor that can find anything? Seems better than Transmute Artifact (also card disadvantage).
that's great to have results like that. how do you think you might have to approach the deck if opponents have more artifact hate? are you cold to the ouphe guy? (looks like maybe just oko in the sb) anyway, congrats!
-rob
What does your list look like?
Terminus sounds pretty great in that setup.
Do you play 4xLeyline of the Void in the SB so opponents can't benefit from your mill?
How consistently castable is Transmute Artifact? UU seems kinda rough with that little blue mana. Also, are the match-ups against fast combo as bad as it seems or is E. Bridge enough that you can kinda manage against Reanimator/SnT G1? It seems like you do well against tempo-decks (your list has you beating RUG Delver, UB Shadow and UR Delver), which I find kinda surprising but also something that makes this deck actually seem quite appealing. Something that has a good match-up against both, tempo and control, would be incredibly well positioned for many metagames.
I go back & fourth on 1-2 Transmute, settling on 1 and moving a Damping Sphere to the Mb and 1 SB to give myself better game vs big mana decks/combo g1.
Reanimator is okay, sometimes they have that turn 1 nut draw with discard + griselbrand etc, but with needles/cage/bridge you can do a lot to stall.
Storm g1 I dont feel to hot against, but g2 you get, Damping Sphere/2 Canonist/2 Flusterstorm/Crpyt which gives you a total of like 10+ cards that can fight storm or annoy them after board which is a decent amount.
I had a lot of thoughts about my work-in-progress Esper build and decided to discard it all together. I couldn't make it work. The reason is because I couldn't find a good enough reason to run Symmetry over Enlightened Tutor. The sorcery speed requires you to have a Teferi out, so you can EOT Symmetry into Codex, play it, and activate it to remove their tutor target, and then you can still get blown out by Brainstorm.
I did a lot of thinking and decided to take a different approach.. Artifacts are really bad right now with Oko, Needle/Spyglass, Ancient Grudge, and Chalice strategies. So, what if we throw out the artifacts all together? I've tried/wanted to try this in the past through Duskmantle, House of Shadow, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Nephalia Drownyard and Fathom Feeder, but the following list relies nearly completely on Predict and Thought Scour. The realization is that you don't need to lock someone out to win the game. All your opponent needs is a stream of 3 bad draws for you to pull away and win the game through card advantage of Thought Scour and Predict, and permission spells. Drown in the Loch helps a lot because it is one of the few cards that will act as a Counterspell while also dealing with already resolved threats, and it has synergy with the mill effects we are playing.
It's untested so it could be genius or terrible. Would love to get your feedback on this.
Mono Blue Lantern
4x Force of Will
3x Force of Negation
3x Drown in the Loch
4x Brainstorm
4x Predict
4x Thought Scour
4x Field of Dreams
2x Lantern of Insight
2x Spell Snare
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
1x Vedalken Shackles
1x Codex Shredder
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Brazen Borrower
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Curfew
1x Search for Azcanta / Azcanta, The Sunken Ruin
4x Polluted Delta
4x Prismatic Vista
1x Underground Sea
8x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
Sideboard:
x Blue Elemental Blast
x Vendilion Clique
x Back to Basics
x Surgical Extraction
x Relic of Progenitus
x Leyline of the Void
x Gilded Drake
x Pithing Needle
x Submerge
x Drown in the Loch
x Thoughtseize
x Dead of Winter
* Field of Dreams doesn't get hit by artifact hate and pitches to Force of Will, Force of Negation and Misdirection.
* Predict and Thought Scour are your main millstones, Scour cantrips and Predict is a draw engine. They are used more strategically than Codex Shredder where you can be more aggressive.
* The card disadvantage of pitch counters is offset by the fact that the millstones serve as a draw engine.
* Curfew with Snapcaster Mage or Brazen Borrower gives you a lot of rebuys on countering threats and bouncing Marit Lage, Emrakul and Reanimator targets.
* Force of Negation is good vs Cabal Therapy and Life from the Loam
* The lack of Pithing Needle makes it more difficult to defend against Dark Depths / Thespian Stage. So you need to make sure you counter Vampire Hexmage and Crop Rotation. Petty Theft on Brazen Borrower helps you get rid of Marit Lage. The deck probably needs at least 2 needles in the maindeck.
*Jace, Vryn's Prodigy -> I would like to test this further, in particular for the ability to act as a semi ensnaring bridge, get extra activations out of Predict, and use the ultimate to get a millstone Emblem. It is more vulnerable, but I think it fits the deck well.
Vryn Lantern
4x Force of Will
3x Force of Negation
3x Drown in the Loch
4x Brainstorm
4x Predict
4x Thought Scour
4x Field of Dreams
2x Lantern of Insight
2x Spell Snare
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
1x Vedalken Shackles
1x Codex Shredder
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy / Jace, Telepath Unbound
1x Dead of Winter
1x Brazen Borrower
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Search for Azcanta / Azcanta, The Sunken Ruin
4x Polluted Delta
4x Prismatic Vista
1x Underground Sea
8x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
Last edited by bruizar; 11-24-2019 at 08:12 AM.
I think you really want a permanent-based mill engine to maintain the lock. It's much worse if you need to have a 1-shot spell in hand and trade resources to get rid of that card. That could be a good tempo play in some cases, maybe shutting down a combo deck or keeping a low-threat deck off a threat, but it can't maintain card quality advantage over the course of a game. It's not sustainable. And without the threat of the lock, it's not worth playing card disadvantage like Field of Dreams.
Nephalia Drownyard seems good, although the large mana investment means you're wasting your own turn too and both of you are doing nothing. Also Wasteland is a thing. Something free seems much better.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver or even Ashiok, Dream Render seem like decent options.
That's exactly what I was wondering. If you can cantrip a threat away 2 or 3 times, will you pull ahead far enough to win with counter spells? I'm not sure. The idea of the 4x Field of Dreams was to pitch redundant copies to Force of Negation and Force of Will, which Lantern of Insight cannot do. What would you cut from the list and replace? I could easily test Ashiok 1.0 and 2.0 since I have copies lying around.
Update with my list from above
//Artifact (29)
4 Codex Shredder
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Damping Sphere
1 Defense Grid
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Lantern of Insight
1 Lotus Petal
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Opal
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Welding Jar
//Enchantment (4)
2 Artificer's Intuition
2 Field of Dreams
//Instant (3)
3 Whir of Invention
//Planeswalker (5)
3 Narset, Parter of Veils
2 Oko, Thief of Crowns
//Sorcery (1)
1 Transmute Artifact
//Land (18)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Glimmervoid
5 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Spire of Industry
SB: 1 Damping Sphere
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Hope of Ghirapur
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Metamorphose
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Spellskite
SB: 1 Throne of Geth
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Torpor Orb
I have not lost against any delver variant yet... like 8-0 or some dumb number. Feel 50/50 vs Storm, still figuring out the Karn decks but played at another event beating Storm/Miracles/Eldrazi losing to bomberman.
Looks good.
Now that you're splashing for Oko and white stuff in the SB, is there room for 1 Arcum's Astrolabe? (and converting the Islands to Snow-Covered)
Astrolabe has a lot of strengths besides cantripping:
-turns on Mox Opal
-Transmute fodder
-Improvise fuel for Whir
-Artificer's Intuition
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