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Thread: Legacy Lantern

  1. #41
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Given Emrakul's presence in the top decks, wouldn't playing Pyxis over Ghoulcaller's Bell be a better option?
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    To be fair, you're supposed to build a sizable pyre underneath it and light it with an arrow from afar.

  2. #42

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    I'll post the short discussion we had on salvation just to answer some questions you may have:


    Me:
    Shadowgripper:
    Ah sorry for that, didn't insta-recognize. The energy field route is my current build but I'm not saying that this is optimal since you pretty much lose black discard. However, Pyxis of Pandemonium I'm pretty sure is correct for legacy due to:
    Dig Through Time (every delver deck, omnitell and miracles is running multiples; you don't want to feed into it)
    Turbo-eldrazi (needle on Eye of Ugin)
    Lands (life from the loam, needle on Thespian Stage)
    Snapcaster Mage (getting rid of lightning bolt saves you 6 life, snap into bolt makes stabilizing harder)
    Ancient Grudge out of the sideboard
    Reanimator (get rid of their bombs instead of helping them fill the graveyard)
    Deathrite Shaman (bridge is nice, but the lose 2 life still works so you want to starve the fuel for DRS)
    And its obvious synergy with energy field should you go that path

    Very nice list though, I'm extremely curious how it performs and I'm happy you are testing a different build from me because that means we get to know which one is optimal sooner. There are so many variations possible. Keep me posted on developments and test results.
    Shadowgripper
    To note on your points without getting too far off topic.

    Pyxis I don't believe is a good way to control Dig. It doesn't actually DO anything to change the board state and make dig less likely to be played.
    Eldrazi - You do not care if they reshuffle with eldrazi, they will eventually lose as you will eventually find Surgical/Nihil. If you needle Eye + Top and prevent them from drawing Ulamog how else do they win?
    Lands - They don't kill you with Thespian Stage... you run bridge. You dont care about loam. You just needle Wasteland and they run out of things to do aside from Punishing Fire. This is resolved with eventual Nihil Spellbomb. They will deck faster than them pinging you for 1 a turn.
    Snapcaster is highly played in modern. You side in 1 cage helps but usually snap is not a threat... they dont draw snapcaster and you remove it from their hand with discard.
    How many Legacy decks play grudge? For those that do, you have cages.
    Why would you aggressively mill Reanimator, you can choose not to mill them. You shouldnt be milling blindly. My list also has insane coverage for graveyard strategies.
    We run 3 needle and 2 decay for deathrite. It's not that fast of a clock.
    Pyxis synergizing with Energy Field yes, but Energy Field restricts our deck building requirements in a direction that does not meet Lantern Prison's 3 main goals.

  3. #43

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by Redkid43 View Post
    Given Emrakul's presence in the top decks, wouldn't playing Pyxis over Ghoulcaller's Bell be a better option?
    Why do you care if you mill emrakul? If they reshuffle their deck it does not get them out of the lock. They still cannot win. Remember our goal is not to play magic and win the game, our goal is to prevent them from winning the game. Emrakul doesn't threaten us at all.

    Eventually we will find a spellbomb or surgical and prevent the "I'll never be mill ever" by exiling their deck and grave. We cannot deck ourselves because of Academy Ruins.

  4. #44

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgripper View Post
    Why do you care if you mill emrakul? If they reshuffle their deck it does not get them out of the lock. They still cannot win. Remember our goal is not to play magic and win the game, our goal is to prevent them from winning the game. Emrakul doesn't threaten us at all.

    Eventually we will find a spellbomb or surgical and prevent the "I'll never be mill ever" by exiling their deck and grave. We cannot deck ourselves because of Academy Ruins.
    I've played prison decks for years by now and the main enemy I have is the clock. How is your experience? How do you usually win? Do you find your opponents playing the game out when they are 1-0 ahead? As an example take RG lands. The recent success of RG lands is mostly because Dark Depths can close the game out quickly. Lands was good before, but it had the same issues closing out games.

  5. #45

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I've played prison decks for years by now and the main enemy I have is the clock. How is your experience? How do you usually win? Do you find your opponents playing the game out when they are 1-0 ahead? As an example take RG lands. The recent success of RG lands is mostly because Dark Depths can close the game out quickly. Lands was good before, but it had the same issues closing out games.
    The trick with the Lantern prison deck is the power of the prison lock itself. You completely prevent the opponent from playing the game AND prevent any out they could possibly draw. They cannot play anymore. With that said, if your opponent simply draws a card and passes, never casting another spell or attacking with creatures, you win... right? Nothing is happening. So then why do you need to continue to play magic if they have stopped? This is how I am able to close out games so quickly without a win-condition. I also do not play magic and just sit there playing draw-go with my opponent until they concede or deck.

    This is the hard-lock: Lantern + Bridge + 3 or more mill rocks. Clean up the board state with Pithing Needle / discard spells and the hard-lock will do the rest. Let's do some counting: with 3 mill rocks how many runners (or threats) does your opponent need on top of his deck all in-a-row in order to draw out of the lock? They need seven... yes SEVEN. That's so unlikely it's just not going to happen. When they end their turn you can mill 3 of their threats, untap, mill 3 more. Of those 6 runners milled they still need another runner to follow in order to win. And even if they manage to hit that 7th runner, you can always sac Lantern to shuffle giving you an extra out (just in case).

    Okay, so we understand how to create a hard-lock and prevent the opponent from playing. Nothing they do matters anymore, and nothing we do will change that. So stop playing magic yourself. Don't do anything. Just play draw-go and you'll win the game naturally because they will always run out of cards first (you play that fancy land remember).

    Your time involved in the game each turn should be limited to 5-10 seconds. Simply mill their threats at the end of their turn, untap, draw, reveal top card, play drawn card, pass. Done in 5 seconds. They faster you can at physically move your hand around the table and touching your cards, the more time you save. Plan where you cards are on the table so that you can mechanically tap/untap them with haste. The more you play the deck the faster you get at performing these actions; the real catch is encouraging your opponent to play faster as well since they can't do anything and probably hate you. They could concede but for some reason a lot of people don't, expecting to draw 7 threats in a row...

  6. #46

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    The way you talk about this deck you make it sound as if it's unbeatable.

    In the hands of a skilled pilot, what is the win % of this deck? Over 80%? It sounds as if it's very hard to break out of this lock if properly piloted. How do you ever lose with this deck?

  7. #47

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    The way you talk about this deck you make it sound as if it's unbeatable.

    In the hands of a skilled pilot, what is the win % of this deck? Over 80%? It sounds as if it's very hard to break out of this lock if properly piloted. How do you ever lose with this deck?
    I don't have experience with the Legacy build, but one of my friends run this in Modern, and I've played against him extensively.

    You win by killing him before the lock is established, either by having a very fast clock, or by disrupting him with discard, counters or artifact hate so he can't assemble the full lock. If a skilled Lantern player finishes the "Lantern + Bridge + 3 or more mill rocks" setup shadowgripper mentioned then it's up to "can I break the lock or kill him with what I have in hand now?". If you can't, it's better to simply concede - the lock is a lot more solid then it seems, and if you don't realize this and try to "get lucky" with a draw you'll end up losing G1 after a long time and losing the match 0-1 after timing out on G2.

  8. #48

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    I don't have any experience or statistics for the Legacy Lantern, as I didn't think it existed yet. As for Modern, my win percentage in testing and tourney performance has been 80%+ in games. Burn is rough g1 and Zoo can be tricky if they draw well. Lantern deck loses if it draws poorly and the opponent draws well. Normally it's hard for the lantern to fail in the hands of a skilled pilot because of how consistently fast it can build together the lock.

    And for the record, I've never won a match because I won game 1 and didn't win game 2. I've completed every game I've started and only had a draw once. The draw was at GP Charlotte before people knew what this deck was, and opponent was on home-brew Burning Tree Shaman while I was having to deal with Sun Droplet life gain over and over.

    It's really easy to pilot this deck quickly and efficiently. It's up to the opponent's if they want to end on time or not. EDIT: And by easy I mean, to not take long playing cards or passing your turn. Decisions can be hard at times but once you get a feel for things, it all falls into place.

  9. #49

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    From my legacy experience it is very very easy to assemble the combo, especially with Field of Dreams serving as extra lanterns.

    Some issues that you may or may not be aware of in legacy:

    Delver is fast and filled with permission. Gurmag Angler ignores Abrupt Decay. Gurmag Angler is played very frequently in Delver decks. Ghoulcaller's Bell fuels the zombie fish. Young Pyromancer is a crazy fast clock and turn one delver can win on its own. If you can't resolve Ensnaring Bridge quickly, you're in trouble. Academy Ruins won't help you because it takes 2 extra turns. Even if you do land it, any cantrips or lightning bolts that you may not have been able to answer can turn into snapcaster/bolts for the finish. You're up against Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Daze to let your bridge resolve. This is why I like Energy Field. It's cheaper and you run them in addition to ensnaring bridge given you a similar consistency boost as the 8 mill rocks or 7 lanterns, but losing Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and the catch all Abrupt Decay hurts.

    RG Lands frequently makes a turn 2 Marit Lage via Manabond or Exploration; Life from the Loam messes the lantern combo up with Shredder and Codex and discard doesn't work against them. It's all in on Ensnaring Bridge or Surgical/Needle on Dark Depths/Thespian Stage. Plenty of action against it, but there is the potential to be dead before you blink.

    Elves starts with a grip full of beat down that can also combo out on turn 2 / turn 3. That means you are all in on Ensnaring Bridge even if you lock the opponent out. If they start with Green Sun's Zenith, they can get Reclamation Sage to address bridge (at least once). If they have Wirewood Symbiote and Green Sun's Zenith/Reclamation Sage, they can reclamation Sage every turn. Needle on Symbiote helps here, sideboard Grafdigger's Cage (Natural Order and GSZ) and Abrupt Decay in response to Wirewood activation. Discard is very good here too.

    Burn runs Price of Progress and Sulfuric Vortex, so it is a faster version than the modern version. Burn is already a troublesome matchup in modern so I expect it to be one in legacy too.

    OmniTell plays the cantrip cartel. It's difficult to control the top with Dig Through Time, Ponder, Brainstorm, Preordain and Gitaxian Probe. Discard is probably at its very best in this matchup since it needs to assemble the combo.

    Miracles plays counterbalance and top. You need to resolve your combo before they do. Abrupt Decay is the only card that can really get you out of this. Needle of SDT (preferably before Counterbalance can come down) is super important.

    From this assessment I'd say Energy Field shuts down burn, delver and RG lands immediately, whereas Abrupt Decay + black discard perform best against Miracles and Omnitell, arguably the two dominant decks together with Delver. Not sure which one is favored against elves.

    I will have to do several tests with multicolored energy field lists to see if I need to stay in monoblue to make energy field work or not. It would be great to have access to proper discard spells.


    4 Lantern of Insight
    4 Codex Shredder
    4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Lotus Petal
    1 Nihil Spellbomb

    3 Field of Dreams
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Infernal Tutor
    1 Surgical Extraction

    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Seat of the Synod
    3 Vault of Whispers
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    2 Academy Ruins

    Sideboard:
    2 Duress
    2 Sphinx's Tutelage
    2 Darkblast
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Trinisphere
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Arcane Laboratory
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Flusterstorm
    I know the sideboard is subject to change, but what would be your sideboard plan against Delver and Burn? Also, what's the role of Sphinx's Tutelage. Against what would you bring that in? Also, I don't think you run enough fetch to justify the 4 Brainstorms. IMO the manabase needs some work if you're going for Brainstorm. I really like the artifact lands because it makes assembling the lock on turn one possible. It actually happened to me more often than I'd imagine.

  10. #50

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgripper View Post
    I don't have any experience or statistics for the Legacy Lantern, as I didn't think it existed yet. As for Modern, my win percentage in testing and tourney performance has been 80%+ in games. Burn is rough g1 and Zoo can be tricky if they draw well. Lantern deck loses if it draws poorly and the opponent draws well. Normally it's hard for the lantern to fail in the hands of a skilled pilot because of how consistently fast it can build together the lock.

    And for the record, I've never won a match because I won game 1 and didn't win game 2. I've completed every game I've started and only had a draw once. The draw was at GP Charlotte before people knew what this deck was, and opponent was on home-brew Burning Tree Shaman while I was having to deal with Sun Droplet life gain over and over.

    It's really easy to pilot this deck quickly and efficiently. It's up to the opponent's if they want to end on time or not. EDIT: And by easy I mean, to not take long playing cards or passing your turn. Decisions can be hard at times but once you get a feel for things, it all falls into place.
    How did you not top-8 the GP with this deck?

    I hope to see this on the next Modern Pro Tour so I can see just how efficient a deck it is. I don't really have much experience with Modern myself but if you say it has such a high win percentage, it should be definitely possible to Top-8 the next Modern Pro tour with this deck.

  11. #51
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    How did you not top-8 the GP with this deck?

    I hope to see this on the next Modern Pro Tour so I can see just how efficient a deck it is. I don't really have much experience with Modern myself but if you say it has such a high win percentage, it should be definitely possible to Top-8 the next Modern Pro tour with this deck.
    12-2-1 at gp charlotte:
    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=86383

  12. #52

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I know the sideboard is subject to change, but what would be your sideboard plan against Delver and Burn? Also, what's the role of Sphinx's Tutelage. Against what would you bring that in? Also, I don't think you run enough fetch to justify the 4 Brainstorms. IMO the manabase needs some work if you're going for Brainstorm. I really like the artifact lands because it makes assembling the lock on turn one possible. It actually happened to me more often than I'd imagine.
    One of the problems of playing a brand new deck that wins by doing nothing is your opponent's may not see what you're up to and stall you out. I wanted the two Sphinx's Tutelage as a faster win con during testing period of this deck. It's likely they won't be needed.

    As for Brainstorm, you have to look deeper. The deck has many synergies which are hard to figure out without actually playing it. Every mill rock synergizes with Brainstorm.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    How did you not top-8 the GP with this deck?

    I hope to see this on the next Modern Pro Tour so I can see just how efficient a deck it is. I don't really have much experience with Modern myself but if you say it has such a high win percentage, it should be definitely possible to Top-8 the next Modern Pro tour with this deck.
    I lost two matches at the GP. One to GR Tron because I was in severe pain from a headache and shoulder tension. I couldn't concentrate and let him draw Ulamog instead of milling it, letting the reshuffle happen, then later killing him with Pyrite Spellbomb. I had needle on both Karn and Ostone so it actually wasn't possible for him to break out of the lock except for drawing Ulamog. Second loss was to Abzan CoCo combo, it was game 3 and he destroyed my bridge. My intention was to tap Opal and kill the lethal attacker with decay but for some reason I did not. I went to kill it during combat but could not because I did not have 3 artifacts in play. I suppose mistakes are bound to come up within 15rounds, it was the longest tournament I've played it and with probably the hardest deck to pilot. I could have won that game by getting bridge back then landing a Grafdigger's cage to prevent his options and deck from functioning.

    I did not get any feature matches at GP Charlotte, but Ali did at the Charlotte Open a week ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ort2OCYe2a4

  13. #53

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Since we are already experimenting with white and wanting a way to quickly end the game like Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths, how does trying Auriok Salvagers + Lion's Eye Diamond sound?

    Not only does Salvagers allow us to recur Pyrite Spellbomb on its own, we can also get Lanterns, Bells, and Opals back to re-establish a broken lock.

  14. #54

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Okay, so here's my take on the list again. I would love to have Abrupt Decay in the deck against Counterbalance, but I don't know how to fit it in yet. The alternative answer could be a Repeal, but I don't really like it.

    Discard 10
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Vendilion Clique

    Information 11
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Field of Dreams
    4 Lantern of Insight

    Millrocks 8
    4 Pyxis of Pandemonium
    4 Codex Shredder

    Protectors 11
    6 Energy Field and Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Black Eldrazi Enchantment if real

    Mana Sources 21
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Darksteel Citadel
    5 Swamp
    7 Island
    1 Academy Ruins


    --

    IF REAL, Not sure if new eldrazi enchantment is win more or not. It gets extra value out of Pyxis of Pandemonium.

  15. #55

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Took this to a weekly legacy event with 16 people. Lost to Elves round 1, won against Manaless Dredge, D&T, Omnitell other rounds. Score of 3-1.

    Against Elves I simply played poorly as I kept a hand with Academy Ruins, Mox Opal, Bell, Field of Dreams, Thoughtseize, other and never drew a third artifact or land or cast spells. Round 2 I had Grafdigger's cage in play but only ever found 1 mill rock and he found 4 of his sideboard cards right off the bat. I need more Darkblast in the board (just dont own any).

    Here's the list I played with:

    4 Lantern of Insight
    4 Codex Shredder
    4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Pithing Needle
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Nihil Spellbomb

    3 Field of Dreams
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Duress
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Infernal Tutor
    2 Surgical Extraction

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Seat of the Synod
    2 Vault of Whispers
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Breeding Pool
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    2 Academy Ruins

    Sideboard:
    1 Duress
    2 Sphinx's Tutelage
    1 Darkblast
    1 Disfigure
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Trinisphere
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Massacre
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Set Adrift
    1 Flusterstorm

    Overall I will likely swap the manabase and include Enlightened Tutor over Brainstorm/Infernal Tutor. The deck functions well except for lack of ability to find bridge quickly (no ancient stirrings like in modern), the tutors will find it very quickly. card disadvantage is not a problem for this deck, it merely wants to create a lock... not play magic.

    The sideboard needs more removal, darkblast. Tutelage is coming out (wasnt planning on keep it in).

    I'm going to continue to test this at events and make it a real deck. It does have potential, but needs a lot of refining. It took me a month to refine the modern list to create a consistent and powerful deck.

  16. #56

    Re: Legacy Lantern


  17. #57

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Nice result.

    Meanwhile im watching the modern gp. Lantern control in the finals.

    Could you share with us specifically how the omnitell matchup went, and how Brainstorm was against you? Also very curious about your match against manaless dredge.
    Last edited by bruizar; 09-13-2015 at 07:58 PM.

  18. #58

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Congratulations :)

  19. #59

    Re: Legacy Lantern

    @shadowgripper

    are you playing the shocklands because you dont have access to the duals?

  20. #60
    itsJulian.com - Legacy Videos
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    Re: Legacy Lantern

    Money on MKM and drinks don't mix well....I actually ordered three Field of Dreams yesterday before they are going to skyrocket.

    At least that's what I keep telling myself.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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