Page 19 of 19 FirstFirst ... 91516171819
Results 361 to 376 of 376

Thread: Esper Mentor

  1. #361

    Re: Esper Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    SFM isn't impressive in every match. Against Storm, it's not great and gets trimmed postboard.

    SFM is at it's best against Delver and aggro decks, although it's quite solid against control as well.

    Against Food Chain, SFM can be lackluster preboard. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great since it lets you swing past Baleful Strix and Misthollow Griffin while applying a major clock and draws a card.

    Against Miracles, it's a threat that puts them in a position where they have to make bad trades. If they kill it with Swords to Plowshares, they're down a card. If they deal with a Battersull germ token and SFM with Terminus, they're still down a card. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great. Even Jitte is pretty good, since an active Jitte can shut them down from playing Mentor.

    Glad to see that you enjoyed the deck, though.
    Wouldn't say stoneforge was bad, just it didn't have the raw power mentor do, and it's a bit Mana hungry.
    Yep I did all of these but keeping Jitte in g2vs miracle, will keep it next time.

  2. #362

    Re: Esper Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    So I lost against D&T at my LGS last night due to some fairly bad draws... mana flooded both games, little to no creature removal drawn, etc.

    At any rate, my loss to D&T got me thinking. While I've beaten D&T with Esper Mentor on more than one occasion, it's a fairly close matchup. On the other hand, I've played quite a bit with Bant Deathblade, and I crush that matchup everytime. TNN + Jitte is insane against them.

    So like I said, it got me thinking. I wrote a blurb in the Deathblade thread before about some of the various pros and cons for both Mentor and TNN, and while I'm firmly in the Mentor camp because Mentor is absurd... why can't I run both?

    I'm going to test the following list at my LGS next week:

    Lands (18)
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Marsh Flats
    2 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Scrubland
    2 Island
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp

    Creatures (13)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Monastery Mentor
    2 True-Name Nemesis

    Spells (29)
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Force of Will
    1 Spell Pierce
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Umezawa’s Jitte
    1 Batterskull

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Meddling Mage
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Disenchant
    1 Council’s Judgment
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Zealous Persecution
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Back to Basics
    2 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

    The debate for me was whether or not to cut a Pierce or a Jace from the maindeck, but decided that Pierce was only mediocre and Jace was incredible, so I trimmed a Pierce.

    Cutting down to 2 Meddling Mage to fit the Pierce in the board seems fine for me. I've been on the fence about the 3rd Mage for a while, and there are matchups where I want the 2nd Pierce, so I think I'm okay with making that adjustment.

    Thoughts?
    How did you do with the addition of TNN? Was it ok, or just too clunky?

  3. #363
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,378

    Re: Esper Mentor

    I haven't tried it yet. I won't get to try it until next week.
    Sligh
    Mentor Deathblade
    The Mind Harvester
    4c Nobleblade

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  4. #364

    Re: Esper Mentor

    New poster, lurked for a while. I brought Hanni's list to my LGS tonight, with a few changes to the sideboard.
    -1 meddling mage -2 EE -1 back to basics because I don't have these cards and spent my store credit on mentors
    +1 CJ to replace the "answer a problematic permanent" part of EE
    +1 Liliana the Last Hope to replace the sweeper effect of EE while also being strong against grindy decks
    +1 Vendillion Clique to replace meddling mage's "generally good vs combo" slot and give evasion vs elves, which is overrepresented here
    +1 Hydroblast because I like the card

    I went 2-0 vs merfolk 2-0 vs BUG delver 2-0 vs Elves 1-0 vs grix delver after an ID, so I'm obviously feeling pretty good about this deck. All day my opponents were telling me how strong mentor was vs their deck. I would be very hesitant to put TNN in this deck. Basically every deck has sideboard TNN hate that lines up very poorly vs mentor, like edict or -1 sweeper effects. I've also played a lot of D&T and a fair amount of bant blade, and I think D&T is favored in that matchup anyway, so equipment + TNN is not a sure thing to shore up that matchup.

    My sideboard plans today were:
    Merfolk: -2 pierce -2 jtms -2 fow / +2 CJ +1 disenchant +1 SoFI +1 deluge +1 ZP
    BUG Delver: -4 fow / +2 CJ +1 deluge +1 fluster
    Elves: -4 SFM -1 batterskull -2 pierce / +2 meddling mage +1 needle +1 deluge +1 ZP +1 lili last hope +1 clique
    Grixis Delver: we didn't play out boarded games but it would have been -4 fow -2 jtms / +2 CJ +1 fluster +1 hydroblast +1 ZP +1 deluge

    What do people think about those sideboard plans? Aside from missing EE which would have been nice in all of those matchups of course.

  5. #365
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,378

    Re: Esper Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by JacobRoberts View Post
    I would be very hesitant to put TNN in this deck. Basically every deck has sideboard TNN hate that lines up very poorly vs mentor, like edict or -1 sweeper effects. I've also played a lot of D&T and a fair amount of bant blade, and I think D&T is favored in that matchup anyway, so equipment + TNN is not a sure thing to shore up that matchup.
    You're right, Mentor is strong against alot of decks, that's why this deck is so good. Mentor is a rediculously powerful card.

    That doesn't make TNN any less good in a deck with equipment, though.

    The thing is, diversifying the threats has the ability to make this deck even harder to deal with. While there may be answers for TNN postboard, there are also answers for Mentor. TNN doesn't get hit by Abrupt Decay, for example.

    Mentor is much better than TNN in most matchups for this deck, but there are matchups where TNN is very strong. I still haven't tested the split yet, but I very much like the idea in theory.

    Also, D&T is definitely not favored against Bant Deathblade. I've never lost that matchup from the Bant Deathblade side. I'm not saying the matchup is unloseable, but it's a very favorable matchup.

    I don't think that it's going to change the D&T matchup from tough to favorable simply by squeezing in 2 TNN, but it will make the Jitte plan stronger against D&T, Elves, etc.
    Sligh
    Mentor Deathblade
    The Mind Harvester
    4c Nobleblade

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  6. #366

    Re: Esper Mentor

    @Hanni - Any chance you will type up a SB guide for your list?

  7. #367
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,378

    Re: Esper Mentor

    I have it on a word doc on my work computer, but I don't have a personal computer these days, and typing it all up on my phone would be a huge pain. So maybe at some point I will, but I don't feel like doing it right now.
    Sligh
    Mentor Deathblade
    The Mind Harvester
    4c Nobleblade

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  8. #368

    Re: Esper Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    You're right, Mentor is strong against alot of decks, that's why this deck is so good. Mentor is a rediculously powerful card.

    That doesn't make TNN any less good in a deck with equipment, though.

    The thing is, diversifying the threats has the ability to make this deck even harder to deal with. While there may be answers for TNN postboard, there are also answers for Mentor. TNN doesn't get hit by Abrupt Decay, for example.

    Mentor is much better than TNN in most matchups for this deck, but there are matchups where TNN is very strong. I still haven't tested the split yet, but I very much like the idea in theory.

    Also, D&T is definitely not favored against Bant Deathblade. I've never lost that matchup from the Bant Deathblade side. I'm not saying the matchup is unloseable, but it's a very favorable matchup.

    I don't think that it's going to change the D&T matchup from tough to favorable simply by squeezing in 2 TNN, but it will make the Jitte plan stronger against D&T, Elves, etc.
    Eh, my experience with TNN has been very disappointing, outside of delver decks where it can be a fantastic tempo play. I'm more against replacing mentors with TNNs than I am the idea of including TNN in general though.

    I've won more than I've lost on the D&T side vs bant. A normal bant 60 lines up extremely poorly with D&T's gameplan, except of course TNN + jitte/sofi specifically, and there are more opportunities for tight play on the D&T side than the bant side to win that fight. Post board, setting up a good ZP is very strong. So if I was going to try to improve the d&t/elves matchups, I'd just find room for another ZP in the board. But you obviously have a lot more experience with this deck than I do, I'm using your list after all. Let us know how the testing goes!

  9. #369

    Re: Esper Mentor

    So I've been testing a bit online with the thopter/sword package. I'm a little rusty in the legacy scene, so I feel my plays haven't been optimal necessarily (I'm especially bad with DRS mirrors), but at least I think my mentor play has been fine. A lot of my games have devolved into attrition/top deck wars, and I don't know, I've just been topdecking bad or something. Even with 18 lands, I feel I flood quite a bit, and I've been keeping one landers left and right. Variance, I suppose, although the deck is a little threat-lite, and weak to discard.

    The thopter package has been under-represented so far, because I haven't been assembling the combo as consistently as I would have liked, but when it does get together, it's pretty much gg from any fair deck. I'll test a little more, I probably just need more practice.

  10. #370

    Re: Esper Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by The Nobodys View Post
    So I've been testing a bit online with the thopter/sword package. I'm a little rusty in the legacy scene, so I feel my plays haven't been optimal necessarily (I'm especially bad with DRS mirrors), but at least I think my mentor play has been fine. A lot of my games have devolved into attrition/top deck wars, and I don't know, I've just been topdecking bad or something. Even with 18 lands, I feel I flood quite a bit, and I've been keeping one landers left and right. Variance, I suppose, although the deck is a little threat-lite, and weak to discard.

    The thopter package has been under-represented so far, because I haven't been assembling the combo as consistently as I would have liked, but when it does get together, it's pretty much gg from any fair deck. I'll test a little more, I probably just need more practice.

    I am playing the deck for around a week now and the part with the flooding get's better as soon as you lern how to manage your cantrips better in this deck, especially the brainstorms.

    I agree with your point concerning the attriton wars. If I struggle to close out games fast enough I will just be outvalued by pile etc. I feel the deck is very strong in the first 5-6 turns and gets weaker as the game goes on. If we manage to make enough value out of Mentor or set ourselfes up for a Mentor Play/Stoneforge Play until then we are likely to win.

    I started keeping track of my matchup data since yesterday (10 Matches played - 7-3 yesterday). I will update when i have about 100 sample matches at hand (maybe sometimes next week).

    The build I am running has the Standard 18 Lands, 4DRS, 4SMF+package, 3MM, 1TNN, 2JTMS as threat package. I am thinking about going up to a 4th mentor just because i want to see him as soon as i can cast him.

    I also decided to test daze in the deck because when my draws line up normally i won't go any higher than 3 Lands (4at max!) before i definetly have to cast my first mentor. Having the daze to protect him alongside FoW (and maybe pierce) can help out big time. I also started testing a 1of chrome mox to accelerate out a mentor (and if I have a Mentor/enough mana I just play it without an imprint for prowess).

    If intrested I'll post my list here tomorrow.

  11. #371

    Re: Esper Mentor

    @Hanni I've read that you have mentioned that SFM isn't a necessity for the deck, yet you really seem to like everything they bring to the table for a variety of matchups. I haven't tried the deck with SFM yet, but i've tried it with and without another 2 cmc must-kill threat. The deck functions so much better with a 2 cmc permanent that either demands an answer or it will take over the game. Jace, vryn's prodigy seems to fit nicely in the deck but i wanted to get other people's thoughts on it as well. It seems to have more synergy with monastery mentor since once it it is flipped it can often cast 1-2 spells triggering mentor. However baby jace has never truly found a home in Legacy, so idk if i just need to give up on him for SFM who has proven that it can be a force to be reckoned with. At worst, he is a big lightning rod for removal that would have been saved for mentor. Thanks for and advice or comments

  12. #372
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,378

    Re: Esper Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by webbwalker View Post
    @Hanni I've read that you have mentioned that SFM isn't a necessity for the deck, yet you really seem to like everything they bring to the table for a variety of matchups. I haven't tried the deck with SFM yet, but i've tried it with and without another 2 cmc must-kill threat. The deck functions so much better with a 2 cmc permanent that either demands an answer or it will take over the game. Jace, vryn's prodigy seems to fit nicely in the deck but i wanted to get other people's thoughts on it as well. It seems to have more synergy with monastery mentor since once it it is flipped it can often cast 1-2 spells triggering mentor. However baby jace has never truly found a home in Legacy, so idk if i just need to give up on him for SFM who has proven that it can be a force to be reckoned with. At worst, he is a big lightning rod for removal that would have been saved for mentor. Thanks for and advice or comments
    SFM isn't a necessity for Esper Mentor. The core is the cantrip package, Therapy, and Mentor. The rest of the deck can be designed in different ways.

    I personally prefer the Deathblade approach. I am also in complete agreement about having additional, on curve, high impact threats. I also like the fact that SFM dodges Red Elemental Blast. Jace and TNN still get hit by Blasts, but running SFM and Mentor significantly lessens the value of Blasts against this deck.

    I have not tried baby Jace, and I would much rather play SFM if I had to choose, but I would not rule it out either. Likewise, Bitterblossom is also a viable 2 drop alternative.
    Sligh
    Mentor Deathblade
    The Mind Harvester
    4c Nobleblade

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  13. #373

    Re: Esper Mentor

    My LGS has been starting a bi-weekly Legacy flight, and the minute I saw Hanni's list at EW I fell in love. I've been on Sultai Death's Shadow, but I'm taking a break. Due to card availability, I was going to try a slightly different version of the list you posted earlier with True-Name in it this weekend.

    Lands (18)
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Marsh Flats
    2 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Scrubland
    2 Island
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp

    Creatures (13)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Monastery Mentor
    2 True-Name Nemesis

    Spells (29)
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Force of Will
    1 Spell Pierce
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Umezawa’s Jitte
    1 Batterskull

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Spell Pierce
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Disenchant
    1 Council’s Judgment
    1 Zealous Persecution/Supreme Verdict
    1 Zealous Persecution
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Sword of Feast and Famine
    1 Flex: Containment Priest/Vendilion Clique/Gideon, Ally of Zendikar/Liliana, the Last Hope/Diabolic Edict/Karakas

    I'm changing around the board based on cards I have/what I expect the meta to be. There's only about a dozen people that have shown up since we started and the meta is something like; UR delver, Grixis Delver, 2x DnT, Lands, ANT, High Tide, BR Reanimator, BUw Tin Fins, Merfolk, Bant Deathblade, Spanish Inquisition. I don't have the Meddling Mages', Toxic Deluge, Back to Basics, or the Swords of Fire and Ice. Instead, due to the high number of reanimator/combo, adding in an additional Surgical and Flusterstorm, adding in either a Verdict or a second Persecution for additional board wipe for DnT/Fish, Feast and Famine for combo, and then a flex spot that's still to be determined.- probably throw them all in my backpack and see who shows up.

    From what I've read, siding out versus combo seems more straight forward in cutting the SFM package and siding in the hate. But I'm bit unsure how to board versus delver decks. On Sultai Death's Shadow (the only other legacy deck I have experience with) I'd typically cut my counter spell suite, but so much of the deck is built around resolving and holding onto Mentor, so we still want to side out forces here? Is a lot of the sideboarding more just shaving cards off the top, i.e.g -1 SFM, -1 JTMS, -1 TNN +3 sideboard cards, versus just

  14. #374
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,378

    Re: Esper Mentor

    Against combo, it's pretty easy to identify the bad cards to cut. Swords to Plowshares (unless against Reanimator), TNN, and SFM + equipment tend to be the worst cards depending on the specific matchup. I keep Swords to Plowshares against Reanimator and a 2/1 split of SFM/Batterskull against Storm. Jace isn't great against most combo matchups either (except Sneak Show), so he's another consideration if you need more to cut, but be mindful of your blue spell count.

    Against Delver matchups (not counting BUG Delver), Jace is the worst card. 4cc, sorcery speed, blue, and can be killed relatively easy. Past that, I've been cutting some Cabal Therapy. Usually I bring in 1 Flusterstorm, 2 EE, and 1 Toxic Deluge by cutting 2 Jace and 2 Therapy, although if the opponent has TNN, I cut a 3rd Therapy for 1 Zealous Persecution.

    BUG Delver is a different animal. Their postboard configuration changes them into a midrange BUG deck, so you have to board accordingly. That means keeping Jace, bringing in Back to Basics, Council’s Judgment, etc. The exact plan may differ depending on their exact list, but for the most part, I treat this matchup like Czech Pile postboard.
    Sligh
    Mentor Deathblade
    The Mind Harvester
    4c Nobleblade

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  15. #375

    Re: Esper Mentor

    In case anyone is curious, I was on camera playing this deck. My opponent, Tim, is one of the better players locally. Relevantly, I'm playing with 1 snapcaster main which has been absolutely fantastic. I lost this match but I think it was a good one overall, and if you care to, let me know what I did wrong

  16. #376

    Re: Esper Mentor

    I played a few games with the deck. My LGS event didn't fire, as there were only 5 of us that showed up so instead played a bunch of casual games with a few of the people.

    1-1 against Sultai Nic Fit. I'm new enough to the format that I had never played versus Nic Fit before, so it was pretty interesting. Game 1 I had problem drawing any action, cold drew all four basics very early on so didn't get any value even off his first Veteran Explorer, and by the time I had action he had a Pernicious Deed out. I tried to force him to pop it on a TNN with a Jitte after having to go through too many hurdles to even get that out, hoping to draw into a mentor and go around him. He dropped Meren of the Clan Nel Toth, popped his Deed, and then cast a large Green Sun's Zenith for Thragtusk that I wasn't able to recover from. Second game I had a lot more action, cabal ritualed his hand, got stoneforge down quickly, and after about 15+ cards finally hit Mentor and went off. Once the other player confirmed the event wasn't firing he packed up and left, and I moved on.

    1-1 versus Spanish Inquisition. I know what the player is on, and game 1 kept a hand without a land but 2 force 2 blue cards, SFM, batterskull, and cabal ritual. I successfully survived the first turn, and, after missing my first land drop and passing back, was in better position to rebuild. Eventually got to two lands, dropped stoneforge, stripped his hand, and built up a large batterskull with jitte. Game 2 I kept a hand that was something like cabal ritual, spell pierce, meddling mage, 2 lands, ponder, stoneforge, and kept. He killed me turn 1.

    2-0 versus Death and Taxes. Both games I got lucky and connected a Jitte to a True Name Nemisis. The rest is just window dressing. Game one I got to go off with a monk token with a jitte and a Jace on the board too, which was pretty fun. My opponent's list doesn't have prelate, recruiter of the guard, or council's judgment; instead with mirran crusaders and some other things (the 3/1 that stops people from drawing more than one card, that I'm not sure how standard it is). So Jitte just eats up his board, and he never had good responses to True-Name either. Both games my opponent also seemed relatively low on action of his own and that I was the beatdown, in game two trying to double Port me to keep me off black.

    I then played 6 games of 1-land Charbelcher vs Spanish Inquisition, which was hilarious, but irrelevant to testing the deck.

    My impressions: I enjoyed the deck a lot and will probably finish building it out. When the deck works, it works great. For a deck with 12 cantrips, some games I still feel I never draw any action, action is too expensive, or somewhat slow to setup, e.g. stoneforge, following turn activate to get batterskull, can't attack until the next turn; somewhat hesitant to throw out mentor unless I have mana for a follow up spell to get marginal value out of it, TNN is kind of slow unless it's carrying equipment. Part of it I think is just getting used to it relative to delver, which is all about hyper efficient threats. Also, the 1-of SFM equipment seemed to find natural draws into my hands more than Mentor did.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 1 guests)

  1. Shaka1333