THIS. This seems like the tech we need to keep up with shardless now. I'd love to see a decklist if anyone has one, or I guess I can wait until round 15 =POriginally Posted by grimskies
I am curious what their lists look as well. I am skeptical about painful truths actually being good. I considered it but then decided I would rather just have more ways to cast brainstorm and played more snaps, mini-jace and JTMS. Maybe I dismissed it too quickly though. Chapins manabase looks atrocious though; I saw at least 2 basics, 4 colors, karakas and scrubland.
The mana base was miserable, too many lands that can't cast Deathrite Shaman D=
Painful truths was compared to Shardless Agent that always hits ancestral visions, according to Chapin. Not sure how valid that actually is, but it can't be miserable.
I tested Painful Truth against Canadian Thresh in two games. It was miserable enough for me to scrap the idea but further testing would be needed. I might go back to testing it. Could I have a second opinion on using 2 Pithing Needle instead of 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Null Rod in the sideboard?
Also, that mana base sounds disgusting.
I don't think thresh is a matchup where you would want painful truths. Its too win more there. Against thresh if you are at a point in the game where you can safely resolve resolve powerful 3 mana spells, you probably are already winning. I could see it being good against midrange decks. Agent having a body is very relevant though and there are plenty of times where agent into goyf, or agent into decay are way better than agent into drawing 3 cards.
In my testing, I have not been a huge fan of deathrite in the deck, but I also prefer esper stoneblade over 4c deathblade for similar reasons. But the manabase I would use is something close to this:
20 Lands:
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Flats
3 Sea
3 Tundra
1 Bayou/Savannah
1 Tropical
1 Scrubland (maybe a basic plains or swamp in place)
1 Island
From my experience playing 4c Deathblade decks your first fetch almost always gets Underground Sea and you can almost never afford to fetch a basic so you just play all duals.
Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.
~ Mohandas Gandhi
Hi,
I have lately been playing with a list featuring quite a few new cards. While Painful Truths has been quite ok, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar has been the one I have been really impressed with. That card is a real powerhouse in Miracles match-up, acts a legitimate win condition and provides incidental like offsetting things like Night of Souls' Betrayal and Dread of Night.
The match-ups I have had most problems with are Show and Tell, Elves and random Blood Moon, Chalice etc. decks with multiple prison elements.
Lands (21)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
Sorceries (9)
3 Unearth
3 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
1 Supreme Verdict
Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Sideboard (15)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Extirpate
2 Bitterblossom
1 Null Rod
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Pithing Needle
That list looks interesting. How are the True-Name Nemesis, Unearths, and Wastelands performing in your variant? I am also curious if you find 3 Spell Pierce and 2 Counterspell enough disruption for your variant.
I think 4 Wastelands is probably too much, but they keep Spell Pierce relevant for a little longer. I think the lack of disruptive elements really shows when you are playing against Elves and Show and Tell. On the other hand, you don't get stuck with a Thoughtseize in top deck mode. Unearth is just great with Monastery Mentor and Snapcaster Mage (and baby Jace). I would play exactly one TNN. It is pretty great against Batterskull, a resilient threat against Miracles, and makes the Tarmogoyf decks commit a lot of creatures to the battlefield which you can sweep away with Verdict.
Intriguing, but not a huge fan of 4 wastelands. and not playing cabal therapy seems rather suspect.
Going forward, I think I wanna try the original list that sparked this thread, TheArchitect's list, along with 3 painful truths in place of DTT. Might be a good starting skeleton.
Team Ultrapro's Deck List is up. I do not like how it looks on paper honestly.
Deck List for Reference:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Council's Judgment
2 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
SB:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Misdirection
1 Notion Thief
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
I like the Council's Judgment main as an answer to problematic permanents but the sideboard seems to be a mess. Personally, I would not play less than 4 Cabal Therapy and without Meddling Mage in the sideboard.
Agreed with both of these points. Far too powerful to not be playing IMO
Well I have now tested some. The deck is very powerful in most mid game situations and has the ability to win on turns 5-8. Against Infect game 1 it's really hard because of having hands like Fetch, Top, Therapy, Myth, Tnn,Tundra,Brainstorm, Factory. If i'm on the play its beginning to get more clear that I need to start "aggressive" and go with a turn 1 Myth. It took probably 20 games or so to cement that idea in my head. Still with different options of "how am I going to work" being open on game 1/turn 1, it makes it difficult. I seemed to get Infect very easily after sideboarding (of course I can't do anything about the OOPS I WIN hands they get every now and then...)
In testing against stoneforge decks I found that game 1 is a grindy battle which they can get due to having equipment for their TNNS to outlcass my TNNS. If I stick the "combo" of Mentor + Top etc.. I can get the games, it really feels like an even match up to me.
Miracles I just outclass due to the Myth/Standstill package. Kind of funny to watch standstill do so much work against Miracles!
That is all I have tested against so far. I plan on hitting up the local shop in Columbus Ohio tomorrow for more testing! I will post once I get the deck more exposed to other match ups.
Played in a local last night. Ended up going 1-2. Win was against infect barely got it 2-1, just got all the control aspects I needed in time. Lost to OmniShow 2-0; game 1 he was on the play and when I see his hand on my turn 1 off probe I see fetch, force, cunning wish, show and tell, emerkul, brainstorm and omniscience. when he had already cast a turn 1 ponder.... I had 1 fow but he drew into more counter magic and slams show and tell thru on turn 3 I loose...Game 2 I board in Humility and he runs a turn 2 pyromancer out, and a turn 3 pyromancer out and by turn 5 has out 8 tokens to do token beat down before I could get humilty onboard and stabilized.
The other loss I had was to a really good miracles player. I lost 0-2. Game 1 I didn't see any standstills or really any draw spells and he had the 1 for 1 answers on factories, myth realized, and councils judgement on TNN. Game 2 I was aggreviated and boarded incorrectly. When I cast E. Tutor I expected to see humilty but I had forgot to side it in and the next turn he bashed me in the face with monk tokens that were 5/5's. Game 2 went a really long time and I had him down to 5 before he stabilized. I had 1 huge turn left where I cast a TNN and tarpit in the same turn hoping to get there (this was right after he miracled a terminus so I thought I was ok and he found judgement and snapcaster on swords. His list runs 4 snapcasters which provided me with a LOT of headaches instead of the normal miracles builds. The deck held its own against Miracles and I know my match up is usually pretty good against it. The omni deck just rolled me over though and I couldn't do much.
very weird meta at the LGS! Only 1 rug delver deck, 2 miracles, and then it was everywhere, lol! 1 storm, 1 JunkLoam, 1 OmniShow, 1 infect, 1 EsperBlade, 1 EsperMentor, and 1 ANT. Plan on playing next week trying to get more testing in and seeing what changes I need to make if any. Still feeling things out. Painful Truths was suggested but a draw 3 for 3 just doesn't seem as strong to me in this type of deck when I'm running 4x brainstorm,4x standstill, 3x Probes, and 3 Tops.
I may test it but not sure what to really cut. In all games I did find that Myth was amazing and really can do so much work, especially against Miracles. Making them have to waste a 1 for 1 terminus on a 6/6 myth seems very good, especially when I had cantripped and had more threats to deploy as soon as it was dealt with.
I'm flattered ;)
You played really well, I just had a much better draw the second game. Cheers, was fun playing against you!
As for going forward with the list, I like myth realized a lot, it caused me many headaches, but I really do believe that Painful Truths is real, as I mentioned last night. Spent most of my afternoon prior to the event testing a Painful Truths build, and it felt really good, letting us go toe-to-toe with anything grindy, be it miracles or shardless. As for fixing Omni, you pretty much have to be playing some number of meddling mages, more therapies, etc. I would have a fair amount of sideboarded fast combo hate, as well as some grindy deck hate. Thankfully, there are some overlaps there, such as meddling mage and vendilion clique. Just some thoughts!
I like the idea of the deep green splash for decays, similar to how storm boards into one green source and multiple decays since decay is great against decks that don't attack our mana. I agree with your sentiments though, I would absolutely not be without Meddling Mage or 4 Therapies, they're the reason the deck remains in its colors and is still quite good right now, even though we don't see many Pyromancer-therapy shells anymore.
Recently, I have not been happy with Counterspell in the deck. It has been hard to integrate into prowess overruns and token generating chains and I often do not want to keep mana up for it. Has anyone else been having issues with it recently?
I recently tried a forceless, jaceless, and Snapcaster Mageless variant with 4 DRS, 1 Zealous Persecution, 2 Bitterblossom, 3 Lingering Souls, and Sorin, Solemn Visitor and with 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Cabal Therapy as the disruption package. Through some preliminary testing, I can see the appeal behind DRS in the deck yet I feel it cannot utilized it at full potential and is often underwhelming. The deck seems to be able to address the issue of not being able to pull ahead in some matchups by being aggressive enough to make it less likely that you reach that point in the game. Tempo decks seem to be an issue for this variant so far.
The Seeker of the Way variant that I tested had issues regarding Seeker of the Way consuming spells that Monastery Mentor could use so I backed away from that variant.
I am probably going to test a variant that uses Unearth, Fact or Fiction, and Flip Jace or Snapcaster Mage going forward.
I like Unearth and agree with the counterspell point. Shamans were to facilitate a better green splash as well as gain life, since we're falling pretty low with incidental damage and painful truths. I'm fairly certain that I'm always going to play JTMS in any blue deck I ever play, but that's likely just my miracles tendencies coming into play here. Unearth seems amazing though.
So yeah, Hall of Fame Patrick Chapin tried Esper Mentor and then did a Podcast about his understanding and playing at the GP.
http://www.toplevelpodcast.com/the-p...nastery-mentor
Hey there fellow Mentors!
I've been testing Team UltraPro's variant of our deck out a lot in the last month or so and have really enjoyed playing the deck, but come looking to you guys for some advice. As a quick reference, here's the list I played (a slight modification of the Chapin and friends list):
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Council's Judgment
2 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
3 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Misdirection
1 Back to Basics
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
So for quick reference, the mainboard is mostly the same. I have been tinkering with the idea of running another delve threat like Angler, since the graveyard tends to get filled up as you 'go longer,' plus the Angler is a Karakas hedge AND helps stem the tide of aggressive decks.
The side I changed up to run the Meddling Mages (threat diversity and hate diversity is great in the combo and control matchups). The Bayou goes with the Abrupt Decay, in that it gives more stable mana and lets me bring in an extra land against Wasteland strategies if needed. And in games where you want Decay and don't want the extra land, you can generally side out the basic Swamp (e.g. Miracles unless they have Blood Moon). The Back to Basics is a test spot that is very greedy on my part, and I haven't gotten to test a whole lot yet. Thusfar with my testing, I tend to do very decently against the larger part of the format. I have recently had some issues with RUG Delver and was wondering if you guys had any insight into the matchup? I've considered some other board cards like Bitterblossom, Liliana of the Veil, Innocent Blood, Murderous Cut, Disfigure, Lingering Souls, Timely Reinforcements, Umezawa's Jitte, and Toxic Deluge, but none of them 'feel right' in my head. I will move forward with testing some of these options out, but would love your opinions here before I proceed any further.
Anyways, thanks for reading guys, and I look forward to any and all discussion!
Last edited by One With Nothing; 12-08-2015 at 06:16 PM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote