I think running a big, non-blue Planeswalker is probably the best idea for this slot. It makes it harder to interact with on the opponent's side. I like the new Gideon in this role, though personally I have been testing Ob-Nixilis, Reignited. He performs well in these grindier matchups by letting you draw more cards Painful Truths style, or just comes in and nukes a Goyf. Plus if you do get him down on a stalled board, he's quick to ultimate and WILL win the game if that happens. Gideon is a nice trump to decks other than Shardless BUG, because they can amass enough creatures to attack him profitably. The other upside of Gideon is that you can pop him for an Emblem to take a dump on opposing Sulfur Elementals, Izzet Staticasters, Dread of Nights, and other such nonsense. Other contenders would include stuff like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, but I think 5 mana is already flirting with unplayability in most cases. I don't like Sigarda here because it's just so hard on the mana, but definitely see the appeal as it's a total bomb that takes over the board. Planeswalkers are great threats because they play nice with Monastery Mentor as well. There's even an argument for a BW Sorin (either one), but he doesn't do much by himself without some friends to tag along.Originally Posted by Berserking Now
Berserking Now -- How are you liking the extra Surgical? It seems like a very reasonable inclusion, especially on MTGO where there is a lot of Snapcaster and graveyard action going on.
theMonster -- I like the idea of the Delver version, but I think you want to capitalize a bit more on the cheaper/free spells. Maybe going up another Gitaxian Probe? The problem with this deck in the Delver shell is that it's harder to take advantage of the Mentor to apply pressure early. You need a Deathrite to get it going faster. The advantage of playing the current slower build is that once you can stick a Mentor and cast a few spells to get value, even if they kill it, the Monks you make are enough to win the game by themselves a lot of times. I also notice a distinct lack of Daze in your list, so I would recommending shoeing in those as well. In addition, you might want to consider going to the all dual land manabase. While it does open you up to Blood Moon, you will always have the right mana, which is way more important for decks that establish themselves in the early game like what you're trying to do. Besides, 4-color Delver decks do a fine job without basics already, and they're not too far from what you're trying to accomplish. I would recommend cross-referencing those lists with the Mentor ones you find here until you can come to a happy medium. Cheers though, and happy brewing!
The second Surgical Extraction has been performing well in my testing. The additional turn zero interaction for storm and reanimator style decks is beneficial and the four Cabal Therapies in my list give it plenty of support. I am still not a fan of Deathrite Shaman in this deck so the second one is a necessity for me.
i dont know how you can make this deck work without deathrite, the deck would be too slow. I am cure tly running 2 surgicals but considering swapping to 2 rip. When I played deathblade i had shamans and snapcaster but ran 2 rip and have good memories. For me jund loam and lands are just too bad to just play two surgicals.
Right now I'm on a split of 1x Surgical Extraction and 1x Containment Priest. This has been sufficient thusfar, but is a little weak to any of the harder graveyard strategies (e.g. Punishing Abzan, Dredge, Lands). The problem is, that I don't think much harder graveyard hate can be played in Esper Mentor without hurting our deck too much. One and done options like Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus seem decent, especially the former. I have also done a bit of testing with running 2x Leyline of the Void. This one is VERY good, but you have to have a meta that is very grave-centric for it to work out okay. All that being said, I like that we at least have Deathrite to help mitigate everything. I don't see it being very possible to successfully play this deck at all without everyone's favorite one-mana Elf Planeswalker.
Leyline seems like an incredible card against loam and jund, i might try it out. Recently I have been testing a single vendilion maindeck but So far I dont like it, maybe the 4 ponder or 3 cabal would be better. I still feel the deck a bit slow, maybe I am not playing it the correct way but My mentors dont seem to make a bigger effect than sfm despite it being a 3cmc card. On the other hand liliana and toxic deludge are being incredible and helping me get to the late game with advantage against many decks.
Oh and I want to cut my second basic island for an utility land, was consdiering creeping tar pit, any other ideas?
I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for Esper Mentor of the Delver variety or not. However, I went 3-0 tonight at my LGS with it and it felt really solid. List as follows:
4 delver
4 deathrite
4 mentor
2 gurmag angler
4 FoW
4 daze
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 StP
2 thoughtseize
1 cabal therapy
1 spell pierce
8 fetches
3 underground sea
2 tundra
1 scrubland
4 wasteland
First match: 2-0 vs dredge, his deck never threw up like it's supposed to. I had a very good thoughtseize game one, turn one (grabbed careful study) and he just never caught up. Game 2 all Bridges were on the bottom of his deck.
Second match: 2-1 vs elves, saved FoW for the Natural Order and got there with delver flipped game 1. Game 3, zealous persecution is the bomb dude, especially after they dump they're whole hand in 2 turns.
Third match: 2-0 vs tezzeret control, really good opening hands and draws in both games. I just had the counters to everything all match long.
I know 2 staples of the deck are Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy. However, in this build that runs stifle I feel like 8 cantrips is plenty. I'm not saying Probe wouldn't be better than stifle, but I feel stifle is necessary in a mana denial strategy. Now the Thoughtseize's were boss all night. Again, I understand that a late game Cabal Therapy is way better than Thoughtseize because Mentor and any tokens in play get pumped twice. But I really liked the outcome of being able to hand pick exactly what I needed to get rid of depending on my hand. Game 1 against Dredge for example, I would have never guessed careful study. That careful study getting snagged basically ended the game right there. Any opinions or thoughts are much appreciated.
What's your sideboard?
Don't u miss Painful Truths to draw more cards?
I agree that Thoughtseize is the better choice in your list due to the lack of Gitaxian Probe and sacrifice fodder. I like how daze and stifle do not become dead in the late game by being able to be used to fuel mentor. Regarding the number of lands, did you feel it was enough to cast mentor consistently?
I never had any problems casting Mentor. I regularly got to three lands and had DRS in play most of the time. However, 2 of the 3 matchup's were against decks not playing wasteland. This is another reason Stifle is important in this shell. I will say there were times I couldn't just slam Mentor b/c I had to play control and needed my resources. Then there were other times it's the last card in hand and you have nothing else to do but play it and hope for the best. With 18 lands I feel safe saying you can get to three no problem but, you got to be able to protect them if need be b/c only one game out of 7 I got more in play than that. Keep in mind some of this is a result of pitching unwanted lands back with brainstorm or casting ponder then fetching the 2 dead cards away.
Sideboard as follows:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
2 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Pers.
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Murderous Cut
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Council's Judgement
1 Disenchant
I don't know if this is "correct" or not. I need to play more events to figure out if this is best. I can say Zealous
Persecution is a must have. Other board sweepers seem bad like Supreme Verdict (too costly at four) and Toxic Deluge for anything more than 1 just wipes our board as well. Flusterstorm seems right even though I never sided it in, combo is on the rise I believe. Surgical is my favorite grave hate at the moment. I read earlier up the page the one guy was thinking rest in peace. I do not understand this. It shuts down DRS and all delve spells. Nihil Spellbomb is the only other grave hate I see playable. I guess Graffdigger's Cage is a thing. Some combination of Cage and the other mentioned could free up Containment Priest spots. Maybe just drop Priest all together for a third Mage and something else.
Almost forgot to respond to the Painful Truths question. I didn't think at any point "I wish I could find a Painful Truths" but my spell pierce could be replaced easily for 1. I mean 9 counters 8 cantrips or 8 counters 9 cantrips. It's worth playing with for sure, so I'll try it. Truths is probably better here b/c of its synergy with Mentor. In a delver shell, Ponder is a must of 4. You don't want too many cantrips b/c there is going to be times you need gas and not more draw spells. Truths is a sorcery so casting it can leave you vulnerable, remember hitting 3 lands is right around where you top out. Also making a slight change to side board:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Murderous Cut
+1 EE
+1 Meddling Mage
And what about green mana source to sideboard decays? You have deathrite too..
I don't think Abrupt Decay is warranted here. I mean the deck wants to do two things: disrupt your opponents mana base, and drop an early threat or two and protect them. Abrupt Decay is much more legitimate in Patrick Chapin's list. His list has a non-fragile mana base and he wants to control the board, not the opponents mana. Trying to stuff a forth color in my deck scares me greed wise.
not that i'm any kind of authority on Force of Will decks... but here is the list I've been playing the past few weeks:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Esper Charm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Unearth
1 Council's Judgment
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Disenchant
1 Serenity
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Misdirection
3 Meddling Mage
1 Esper Charm
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
And something else in the sideboard, although I can't remember what off the top of my head. I could see the last slot being anything of 1 Swords to Plowshares, the 2nd Surgical, or Jace.
Anyway, I've been running this with pretty decent success in my local meta. I'm usually a bit more of a combo player, so playing fair is a bit odd for me...
So, a few comments on choices I've made: Esper Charm over Painful Truths. Esper Charm has a lot going for it - the fact that is an instant is insane as well as all of the modes are very relevant. The card draw, while a card less than Painful Truths, I believe is mitigated both by the fact that it is an instant as well as doesn't cost any life. I originally started with some of the Painful Truths lists and found that the life loss was actually a pretty big deal against some of the more aggressive decks (grixis delver and burn in particular). The discard mode of Esper Charm is also quite good against most combo decks as well. The third mode is quite good against Counterbalance as well as Blood Moon. This actually decreases your reliance on cards like Abrupt Decay out of the sideboard as you have a lot of access to Enchantment removal.
Because of this, I get to run Serenity out of the sideboard which is more powerful against Chalice decks than Abrupt Decay is. I've been considering running the second Serenity in place of the 3rd Meddling Mage, as Esper Charm already helps against Combo decks to an extent.
Unearth might be more cute than good, but it is pretty nutty with Snapcaster Mage, and is pretty good against Lightning Bolt decks that kill your Mentors. It's possible that this slot wants to be the 4th Swords, however.
With the amount of Fetchlands I'm running, I felt that having at least 1 Delve creature was appropriate - I chose Tasigur over Gurmag Angler just because of his activated ability. It may be wrong - it may even want to be Tombstalker to have a big flier to block with at times. Not sure on this one.
Likewise because of the amount of fetches, Sensei's Divining Top seemed pretty bonkers as well - it's already stellar with Mentor, and the searching capabilities with 10 fetches is great. It occupied a similar slot as Ponder, so I just split the difference there. I have won a couple games at this point going nuts with 2x SDT and Mentor on the table.
Decks I've had some trouble with so far - Burn (although they've been close), UB Tezzeret (hence the want for another Serenity), and fast combo (TES thus far, haven't played much against SnT or Reanimator) has been sketchy. The 2nd Serenity could help with the prison decks, and a 2nd Surgical for the combo decks. I haven't played against a lot of Delver to date, but the 4th Swords probably wants a slot in the 75 for those matchups as well. Maybe in place of the 2nd Council's Judgment in the sideboard.
Anyway, I'm guessing most of you have more experience than I do playing fair decks but wanted to give my perspectives and see if anyone had any feedback.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
This is my actual decklist is like Megatron's list but with a few changes.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Serenity
3 Meddling Mage
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
Too much lands, grixis and infect in my local meta so.. I decide to include a darkblast and a Tsabo's Web.
The results are fine, but sometimes delvers doesn't flip and i'm not sure to change them for 2 snapcasters or for another spells like gitaxian probe or more discard spell.
@.dk I like the use of Esper Charm to reduce the reliance on Abrupt Decay in your list and I plan on testing them myself since lacks the unfavorable features of Painful Truths. In the past, I have tried SDT and it performed well but it was cut since Null Rod became a necessity for me. I prefer Gurmag Angler or Tombstalker over Tasigur since Karakas exists. 3 Swords to Plowshares seems too few against delver decks and I am a fan of a second Surgical Extraction in the sideboard. How is True-Name Nemesis performing? I was considering running one in my sideboard.
Yeah, the Unearth is probably a little cute and should be the 4th Swords. I haven't played against a lot of Delver (it's strangely absent from my local meta lately - just one match against Grixis).
What matches are you needing Null Rod in? While Miracles hasn't been stellar, I don't think it's awful either - particularly with Esper Charm.
And yeah, I get the reasoning with Tasigur as well, as I mentioned. His activated ability is really good, but maybe not worth the cost. Might try Tombstalker in that slot next.
TNN has been good in some matchups as a board stall, but overall hasn't been Stellar. That slot could easily become the 2nd Surgical, and then replace the Council's Judgment in the board with the 2nd Serenity.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Miracles has been very unfavorable for me recently. I like having Null Rod for death and taxes, blade control variants, MUD, ANT, DDFT, and painter variants. SDT might be correct if Null Rod seems excessive when testing Esper Charm.
Interesting - I think Miracles is a close matchup and there are likely other ways to swing it in our favor as well. Esper Charm is a good start - but Disenchant and Serenity are also quite good. The amount of pressure you can put on an opponent with Sensei's Divining Top seems worth it to me to explore other options.
For Death and Taxes - I've been less worried about Aether Vial itself. 2x Zealous Persecution in the sideboard as well as discard from Esper Charm has been enough for me in that matchup. Granted, I've only played it once or twice though.
I haven't played against any stoneblade variants yet, so I'm not sure there.
MUD/Tezzeret - these are matchups where Serenity shines. Not sure Null Rod is necessary here.
I don't think Null Rod is good enough against DDFT, myself. At least when I play DDFT, that doesn't scare me too much - there are so many answers that DDFT can tutor for here, either with Doomsday itself or with Burning Wish.
ANT is reasonable - although the 2 Surgicals and Meddling Mages can do some major work here.
Painter... that's fair. Particularly if they are playing Goblin Welder, Swords, Serenity, and Disenchant can only take you so far.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Pretty sure this will be my first legacy deck. I haven't heard a lot of talk about it recently though so I don't have a very good starting point. What have you all been testing?
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