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Thread: Spells and triggers

  1. #1
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    Claymore1's Avatar
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    Spells and triggers

    This past weekend, I was competing in Philadelphia's Eternal Weekend: Duel for Duals, I came across this situation, where I wanted to call a judge, however, since I had the game wrapped up anyway, despite how annoyed I was I let it go and just finish the game.

    I casted Rest in Peace, triggering 2 draws of the two enchantresses on the table, I asked the opponent if he has any response to either the trigger or the spell that is being cast, I didn't draw any cards yet because it was game 2. My opponent could have had a stifle to counter one of my enchantress's trigger. The opponent, said wait, picks up my card, and responds by saying it resolves, when I attempted to draw my two cards, the opponent said it was too late and I missed the triggers...

    Irritated, I went and cast Helm of Obedience for the kill anyway and just finished him off. However, how should I go about this next time so that situation like this could be prevented? I was worried about a judge being called because I was already warned for another game, not for the same offense though.

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    get outta here, humanity.
    iamajellydonut's Avatar
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    Re: Spells and triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore1 View Post
    However, how should I go about this next time so that situation like this could be prevented?
    Raise your hand and yell "judge" at the top of your lungs.

    If you had exiled the cards in your graveyard or if another card had been put into exile via Rest in Peace or if some other action occurred that would signify that Rest in Peace had already entered the battlefield, then, yes, you did miss your triggers. The game cares about verbal confirmation and "the point of no return". If something happens that couldn't have happened before Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, then it's assumed Rest in Peace had entered the battlefield and that you missed your triggers. However, in this case, as far as I can tell from what you wrote in the post, it seems like your opponent wrongly and arbitrarily decided you didn't get to draw your cards.

    Also, it's worth noting that you shouldn't ever be afraid to call a judge. Especially if you're calling a judge over for something as simple as missed triggers. The only way you'll get in trouble is if you repeatedly break the rules. And, if you break the rules and don't call a judge, you're in even more trouble. Judges are not your friends, but they're also not your enemies. They're an unbiased party here to help you out of situations like this. All you need to do is raise your hand, call, and explain yourself clearly.

  3. #3

    Re: Spells and triggers

    Every time you disagree with your opponent, you realize a mistake has been made or are unsure about an interaction, you should call a judge. In your current case it seems to have been a miscommunication between you and your opponent that led your opponent to believe there was a missed trigger. It is trendy to try to have your opponent miss his trigger. This combined with the usual low knowledge of tournament policies by players, the frequent changes in how missed triggers are handled and their different handling depending on the Rules Enforcement Level makes people believe it is easier than it really is to miss a trigger when you're aware about it. I'm not even talking about out of order sequencing.

    Triggers can only be missed when they would physically impact the game state. When you pass the priority to your opponent, the stack is spell with triggers on stack. When your opponent say it resolves he offers a shortcut to resolve the whole stack. If you draw the cards, you acknowledged the triggers and nothing was missed. If you don't draw the cards and trigger the Rest in Peace then you've forgotten them.

    I really disike this new tendency to misrepresent or obscure game states to make opponents miss or believe they've missed their trigger.

    In short, you don't have to mention it every times a trigger goes on the stack only when it will affect the gamestate. It should be noted that you've the whole turn to remember your mandatory triggers in a Regular Enforcement tournament.

  4. #4

    Re: Spells and triggers

    Your opponent had a very poor understanding of the rules. Or was just straight up trying to cheat, but that's very unlikely.

    Your opponent did what an opponent should do when they want something to resolve - for instance, if you want to prevent the other player from responding to their own spell. What happens when both players pass priority? The top item of the stack resolves.

    Your opponent may have mixed this up with missing triggers. That is not how missed triggers work. That is the opposite of how missed triggers work, as iamajellydonut explained.

    If you verbally asked if there were responses to the triggers, you demonstrated awareness of the triggers, and that's what the rules ask for. If you've demonstrated awareness of them, you don't miss them.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Spells and triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore1 View Post
    I casted Rest in Peace, triggering 2 draws of the two enchantresses on the table, I asked the opponent if he has any response to either the trigger or the spell that is being cast, I didn't draw any cards yet because it was game 2.
    Maybe I've been out of the paper game for too long, or I don't pay enough attention to specific wordings, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone phrase the stack this way. Usually the verbal transaction I recall is:

    "Cast Rest in Peace"
    "Enchantress triggers"
    "Enchantress triggers"
    "Pass priority/responses?/ok?/etc"
    Then resolve the first draw
    "Pass priority/responses?/ok?/etc"
    Resolve second draw
    "Rest in Peace good?" or equivalent
    Resolve RIP

    Your wording is very confusing to me. Unless there is an utterly complicated game state or combo interaction, it never hurts to take the time to spell things out extremely carefully and deliberately, especially in a tournament with higher stakes like Dual lands. I think shortcutting it leaves yourself more open to a possible miscommunication and/or misunderstanding of the rules. So I can see where your opponent could have gotten things either mixed up, or seen an opportunity to cheat.

    Regardless, you should have called a judge. I've had those moments too where I feel bad for not calling a judge, and I always regret it later, even if it was inconsequential.

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