Twin Combo vs Tyrant of Discord

[Julian23]

Earlier today Overvoltage tweeted an interesting question:



How would/should/could the situation be handled?

Bonus point if you come up with an elegant solution that doesn't involve bending the rules to find a compromise.

[rufus]

This (effectively) same question came up here a while ago:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...unts-of-Tokens

[Julian23]

I mean, this was an interesting discussion about three years ago when the card was spoiled. The answer has since been that since your opponent has to pick a conceivable number, any of the Google-able random number generators will do just fine.

https://www.random.org/

First result. Goes up to 100000000.

Yeah. But I was looking for an answer how to handle the situation, not how to in theory go about it, considering that the action is repeated every time a non-land permanent is chosen. I mean you could easily write a program that automates the entire process, but that's not what we're looking for here.

Judging by the link rufus posted, cdr advises: "In competitive REL, if a gamestate occured where an ability could not be resolved in a timely manner, the game would likely be a draw by a judge."

[iamajellydonut]

Yeah. But I was looking for an answer how to handle the situation, not how to in theory go about it.

Judging by the link rufus posted, cdr advises: "In competitive REL, if a gamestate occured where an ability could not be resolved in a timely manner, the game would likely be a draw by a judge."

Deleted my post as you were responding. I forgot about the "repeating" part.

[rufus]

Yeah. But I was looking for an answer how to handle the situation, not how to in theory go about it, considering that the action is repeated every time a non-land permanent is chosen. I mean you could easily write a program that automates the entire process, but that's not what we're looking for here.

There's no formal method for bulk resolving random events. There's an older versions of the issue where a player with Brain Freeze vs Emrakul, and it technically comes up with Frenetic Efreet + Chance Encounter.

In informal settings, if all the players agree on a fast resolution, you can use that.

[Julian23]

I understand this, but maybe I didn't phrase my initial question properly enough: how would a tournament setting handle this. Thus far the only practical answer I can see is cdr pointing towards a Draw.

[Ace/Homebrew]

How would a tournament setting handle this.

With jaws agape at a Modern Vial deck playing Tyrant of Discord.

spectators


twin



tyrant


spectators

[rufus]

I understand this, but maybe I didn't phrase my initial question properly enough: how would a tournament setting handle this. Thus far the only practical answer I can see is cdr pointing towards a Draw.

I'm not sure that's actually a practical answer without some other stuff. It effectively turns Frenetic Efreet into:


Flying
0: Draw the game.
2/1

[psly4mne]

I'm not sure that's actually a practical answer without some other stuff. It effectively turns Frenetic Efreet into:


Flying
0: Draw the game.
2/1

Not really. You can shortcut Frenetic Efreet by knowing that all the activations beyond the first to resolve will do nothing, just like activating Ghost Town a million times. If a Karplusan Minotaur is involved and life totals are high, a case could be made for a draw.

[cdr]

With Tyrant + sufficiently large quantity of permanents, yes, the game should be made a draw. There's no effective way to shortcut it with the means available in competitive REL.

I'm not sure that's actually a practical answer without some other stuff. It effectively turns Frenetic Efreet into:


Flying
0: Draw the game.
2/1

Unless there's an effect that depends on coins being flipped like Chance Encounter / Karplusan Minotaur, the Efreet's ability can be shortcutted into a no-op after the first one resolves and either phases it out or kills it. And even with the Minotaur, either it or a player is likely going to die pretty quickly.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I might be wrong but this could work.

Separate all lands, choose 1 at random; This gets hit first.
Look how many tokens are made, in this case 1 mio. Roll 6 d10 you end up with something like 387 498 divide through number of lands. So many tokens die
Look at how many nonland permanents are left. Roll for each if its higher than 387 498 /nr of lands they survive if not they die too.

Just from the top of my head, dont bash me if there is a logic flaw^^

edit: ok this doesnt work :(

[rufus]

...
edit: ok this doesnt work :(

The number of non-land permanents that gets hit before a land falls along a hypergeometric distribution. I don't think there's any fast way to work things out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperg...c_distribution

[Meekrab]

This "should" be handled by saying some percentage <50% of the twins die but the rest can still attack, because math.

In practice, a judge will probably rule it a draw, because "random."