This is true for most creatures. I believe that many people underestimate the power of Planeswalkers. An unanswered planeswalker wins games. The downside of Jace compared to other walkers is that it can be answered before you benefit from it, which would lead to card parity (still not a huge problem) due to summoning sickness. However, you get a lot back from it: an insanely powerful walker for only 2 mana that can run away if given a few turns unmolested. This is also true for JTMS, but paying 2Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
and getting it answered for
with Pyroblast is a -3 mana loss which hurts a lot more than a -1 mana loss. With Jace, you are much closer to mana parity if it gets answered. Imo, Jace should be played with cards like Burning Wish.
New Jace is better in Vintage than in Modern/Legacy because there are more instant/sorcery bombs, and less creature removal. It's much more likely to loot, flip and THEN actually have something broken to flashback (stuff like Gush with the alternate casting cost). Legacy/Modern care much more about the 2/1 body of Snapcaster.
Even still, there is a lot of talk about Jace in Vintage and not a lot of results. The hype right now is clearly due to Standard.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47811.120
5 pages about new Jace in Vintage! I'd love to try it myself but it is not like it's easy to test for me right now.
Yeah results are the other thing. It is not like there are a lot of relevant Vintage tournaments, though. I also remain sceptical.
Humphrey is always correct.
More like two guys.
Here.
Yes, there is certainly less creature removal in Vintage, making a flip much more likely. I think the key here is that in Vintage, he is very close to a two mana and wait a turn Planeswalker, because there is less chance he'd be killed. Also, never discount theX casting cost effect in Vintage, because this allows him to be played off a land and an off-color Mox (ahem, Dark Confidant). This makes him good in low mana decks (read: Gush) where the fact that his "Flashback" ability is very relevant in that it allows you to pay alternate costs. There is also a conspicuous lack of Abrupt Decays in Vintage right now, but this tend will probably not continue long. People saying he is better than Mindsculptor are definitely missing that baby Jace is only better in the Gush and low-mana combo decks he has been seen in. In Big Blue, there is zero doubt in my mind that Mindsculptor is still king.
What does this mean for Legacy? Well, these are not going to be givens in Legacy, since almost every deck starts with four Bolt, StP or Decay. He also is not a turn one play. Is he playable? Absolutely. Is he going to be a Legacy staple? I really don't think so.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Just so you know, vintage has never had this much creature removal in its entire history.
That is certainly true. There has been an incline in playing creature removal since Delver really started being played, to the "heights" we see know due to Mentor as well. I think people will once again be picking up BUG Fish, so there will be an even great push to play more removal.
Even so, there is nearly an order of magnitude of difference between the removal you'll see in Legacy compared to Vintage.
I left it out before, when discussing Mindsculptor and baby Jace's CMC, but there is a case where costing four mana is an actual benefit, that being Abrupt Decay, of course.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
In Vintage, repeal is also a problem for Jace. Regardless of monetary value or widespread diffusion/adoption, I think Jace ia a powerful role player. Just needs the right deck. Not as niche as Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, but also not as ubiquitous say Liliana of the Veil.
People misjudge the new jace because too many people try to draw comparisons to snapcaster because they both flash things back, but personally I think he is quite different to snapcaster and to other planeswalkers. If I were to relate him to any other planeswalker I would say he is most similar to lotv in that it is a very grindy card. He isnt a game ender like jtms, and although he has to be built around to an extent, I dont think he is super strong in a niche deck built around him like tezzeret. New jace is like a thorn in the sides that just keeps on poking, it isn't an 'answer or die' card but unless opponents are far ahead it is something that they will have to begrudgingly answer before it buries them in the incremental advantages it accrues. I think I have said before that he is a lot like Dark Confidant in that he trades the raw power of card advantage for a more versatile package of abilities.
In addition to the fact that print runs keep getting bigger, this card will likely be reprinted. I'll call this card being around $10 to $15 after rotation. It might still be good but standard wildly inflates prices - as we all know.
While I agree that his price is certainly inflated by Standard and that he will not hold such value post rotation, I whole-hearted disagree about his reprintability. We've actually never seen a DFC get reprinted (small sample size, of course) probably due to the monetary factor of there needing to be a whole sheet of DFCs for it to make an monetary sense.
The only way I can see a reprint happening is if they decide to do a DFC theme in a Modern Masters. Not out of the question, but not particularly probable, in my opinion.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
+1
I disagree with you on the Dark Confidant comparison. Baby Jace will provide you a loot and then if it stays in battlefield will allow you to cast an instant or sorcery card, which is quite different from an extra card in your hand. Which other ability is relevant outside of the -3 sorcery speed flash for Modern and Legacy format?
played against it, the card looks quite strong in vintage but I doubt it will have notable impact in legacy
It's funny when some of my local players talk about the Buzz surrounding Jace in Vintage as part of the reason why the price on him is durable. Like, there are more than enough Japanese foil Miscut Jaces to keep that crowd happy - they have little to no impact on the value of a card while it's in Standard.
I feel like it's overpriced in Standard right now, but when people think the best thing to be doing is casting a 5 mana, 5 color sorcery to get a Rhino, I have a hard time caring about the format. It's like the entire world turned into Johnnys...
Check out my Legacy UBTezz Primer. Chalice of the Void: Keeping Magic Fair.
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Playing since '96. Brief forced break '02-04. Former/Idle Judge since '05. Told Smmenen to play faster at Vintage Worlds.
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Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.
Regardless of true Eternal formats and Standard, Jace is still a powerhouse in Modern, and there's no denying that Modern prices are a legitimate thing. At the least he'll settle around $50-60 due to Modern play (right where Snapcaster is now), but likely $70+, similar to LOTV. She's a mythic from the same set as SCM, so there's less copies floating around. Remember, while Innistrad was around with a smaller player base, it is also a first set in a three-set block (which is drafted for 9 months), while Magic Origins is a summer Core Set that's only drafted for 3 months. So the general supply of Origins is lesser, which counteracts the fact that there are more players now.
Not very probable at all. They'd have to wait at least a few years for this to even make sense; reprinting Standard cards in Modern Masters sets seems like a bad idea.
I think the problem is that he's like a *bad* Dark Confidant in a format that isn't running him much. Bob punching for 2 is quite relevant and the fact he can draw instant speed stuff rather than turn instant speed things into sorceries is quite relevant.
Even so, Blue doesn't run Bob usually between SFM and Snap being immediate and reliable CA. Bob's CA isn't as popular because it requires a turn to set up. Even then Bob does it *every turn* as opposed to a couple of turns. Being unable to impact the board, pressure the opponent, or reliably draw while also taking a turn to set up make it require significantly more powerful spells than Snap to get the flashback to be worth it.
The fact he is anti-synergistic with Burn (slow), Counterspells (sorcery speed ability), Equips (0 power for Jitte, lost mana if you flip), and at best is a 4-5 turn 2 for 1 (maybe 3 for 1) when you could've just Hymned, SFMd, Snap'd, or Lily'd; had your impact *now* and be potentially game ending.
I don't see the attraction in Legacy. A free card every three turns or an ultimate ability that typically will kill you faster than your opponents isn't that good. He seems straight *bad* compared to just Grim Lavamancer; who is a 1-drop that takes a turn; but can not only end games, but interact at instant speed and gain CA every turn it's allowed to; while being synergistic with the decks colors no matter where he is. And he sees no play.
This all changes when you get to a faster format with harder hitting spells; but getting the occasional recursed removal or Brainstorm just isn't enough when it's that unreliable. Don't forget that the chance of seeing Spirit of the Labyrinth will start going up again, since non-blue will be entering the fray with conviction after being shut out for a year.
I'm not sure where you are getting the impression that Jace is a "powerhouse" in Modern. He isn't. He sees some play, but he's just not that big in the format.
The thing is, those cards you listed see substantially more play in Modern than Jace does. You're dramatically overstating how much play Jace sees in Modern. He isn't comparable to Snapcaster Mage or Liliana at all in terms of play.At the least he'll settle around $50-60 due to Modern play (right where Snapcaster is now), but likely $70+, similar to LOTV. She's a mythic from the same set as SCM, so there's less copies floating around. Remember, while Innistrad was around with a smaller player base, it is also a first set in a three-set block (which is drafted for 9 months), while Magic Origins is a summer Core Set that's only drafted for 3 months. So the general supply of Origins is lesser, which counteracts the fact that there are more players now.
Well first things first, dark confidant has a stronger ability of course, which is why it comes with a life loss clause. Jaces +1 ability is relevant against most decks, it a large portion of the anemic beats like delver, clique, ect and shrinks other fatties like goyf/angler/tasigur down significantly. I think most of the card choice you mentioned that you would run over jace wouldn't be in the same kind of deck, as they are all aggressive forms of CA. I think the jace would have to be put into a deck like landstill to be effective or some sort of dedicated control shell that has access to spells stronger than just cantrips.
As well as more Legacy and more vintage play than Jace does (At least SCM - Liliana is pretty weak at the moment, due to tokens)
Jace isn't as strong as SCM, even though he's insane with Gush.
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