Bant Retreat to Coralhelm

[Phoenix Ignition]

This deck is getting too much attention on MTGSal to get any cohesive design push.

The new card that is getting all the hype:


This card is actually really cool. It does lots of things, from enabling you to pretty much 1 hit kill with Knight of the Reliquary to turning every mana dork in your deck into a Lotus Cobra. It also just lets you find good stuff easily with scry, or taps down defenders. A lot of different directions could be taken with this style of deck, but I think 2 important things are necessary for it to be good:

1. The deck functions well without Retreat, and doesn't rely on any combo too much.

2. The deck can spend the mana well if it does get a Retreat and doesn't rely on KotR to win.

One of the coolest things a deck like this could do is Turn 1 Mana dork, Turn 2 Retreat to Coralhelm, Turn 3 fetchland -> 6 mana. I think building around this curve is necessary in the deck being good. We want 6cmc game changers. The one I'm thinking of is Primeval Titan since we'll already have a couple utility lands in the deck for KotR to work with.

Aside from that you can turn 2/3 a Knight of the Reliquary and then next turn drop Retreat to Coralhelm and go through your entire lands in your deck

The list I'm thinking of is something like this:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness

4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
2 Negate
2 Simic Charm
3 Primal Command

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
2 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Treetop Village
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Dryad Arbor

Where do you guys think we should take this deck? Sun Titans perhaps? It's pretty cool to have a deck that just has an instant win but plays like a normal bant deck until then.

[Mr. Safety]

No lands in your deck and a bunch of mana with Knight could lead to an instant win with goblin charbelcher. Its janky, but kinda cool.

[rufus]

As mentioned in the spoiler thread, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Hangarback Walker can be good at taking advantage of the untap effects.

Commune with the Gods could work for you since it will find either piece. Of course that could ruin the surprise.

Other possibilities for tap creatures

Fatestitcher is a good utility tap card.

Jace's Archivist could be funny...

Tideforce Elemental also combos to grow the knight

[Phoenix Ignition]

Hmm, maybe Jace or Hangarback... I'm not a fan of just having Hangarback to exploit the untap, but since the plan is to generate a lot of mana anyway then maybe it's worth using. I guess I'm leaning more towards not using Hangarback just because without Retreat it's going to be very underwhelming, whereas other cards will be better.

Jace might be worth it, but I think a big part of him being good is having the instants to fuel his -3 ability. Right now I'm running almost none.

And I don't think we can really get rid of every land in the deck... as funny as belcher may be.

[rufus]

...
Jace might be worth it, but I think a big part of him being good is having the instants to fuel his -3 ability. Right now I'm running almost none.

Yeah, it would require a different approach to the game with more proactive instants and sorceries like commune and serum visions or something.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I've done a little testing with the list posted above and maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been winning on turn 3 really consistently. My experience thus far has been that Primeval Titan hasn't been necessary. I also didn't really care for the Dispels in the main. I figure Dispel is there primarily to protect your Knight of the Reliquary from removal. If that's the case, then I think Vines of Vastwood or Apostle's Blessing are probably better options. I'm also not really impressed with Bant Charm. One card that I do like which I slotted in in place of 2 of the Rhox War Monk is Undergrowth Champion. As you start to combo of with KotR, you generate mana and can cast the Champion. If Champion is in play, your opponent has to answer your KotR immediately. Otherwise, you're left with a huge Champion as well. My last concern/thought is that it'd be nice to run more basic lands or, dare I say it, possibly some of the BFZ "battle/tango" lands, as generating mana during the combo with shocklands means paying a lot of life. I'm almost tempted to run a Crucible of Worlds in the list as well, as comboing off and then not winning leaves you without the ability to trigger further landfall or generate much mana.

I definitely think this deck is REAL and is worth exploring.

[Seraphix]

...

One of the coolest things a deck like this could do is Turn 1 Mana dork, Turn 2 Retreat to Coralhelm, Turn 3 fetchland -> 6 mana. I think building around this curve is necessary in the deck being good. We want 6cmc game changers. The one I'm thinking of is Primeval Titan since we'll already have a couple utility lands in the deck for KotR to work with.

...

Could Sovereigns of Lost Alara + Conscription be the 6CMC "game changer" here? Maybe with a few copies of Geist and Sigarda thrown in?

Putting Conscription Geist or any hexproof creature is obviously pretty good, and it also turns your pile of mana creatures into potential threats. Geist has always felt bad in Bant as opposed to WUR because even though you can cast him on turn 2 you basically had only 4 Paths for removal so random blockers were pretty good against you unless you had a bunch of exalted triggers. Now with Retreat you can probably tap blockers for days and just Geist people out of the game. Another card I think can fit well with this plan is Simic Charm. It can protect Knight/Retreat/Conscription/non-hexproof dude with Conscription, push damage, and Unsummon can come in handy too.

I guess the downside of Sovereigns VS Prime Time is that it takes more slots up, is clunkier (drawing Conscription kinda sucks) and is probably an easier plan for the opponent to interact with.

Another card I'm wondering might have a place here is the new Kiora. I don't know if there's room for her, but all the abilities seem relevant.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm really hesitant about Sovereigns, I think our 5-6 drop slot needs to have an immediate impact for when it eats a Terminate/Path/Liliana trigger or whatever. Ojoutai can at least avoid everything except sweepers/edicts and Thrag/Titans have an immediate impact. Drawing Eldrazi Conscription is pretty terrible too, as you said.

I'm kind of shying away from Geist in this deck, I guess I really shouldn't be since getting through blockers is what Retreat does and having exalted is great too, but I just think we can do better right now.

New kiora doesn't seem as good as something like old Elspeth. Jumping a creature, especially KotR or Rhox or Primetime, seems like it'd be one of the best planeswalker modes out there for us. Tokens are always decent too.

Minamo is pretty sweet with Dragonlord Ojutai, somehow I've been missing that interaction. Probably unncessary since we could just save a fetchland with Retreat, making Ojutai even more enticing.

[Seraphix]

I'm really hesitant about Sovereigns, I think our 5-6 drop slot needs to have an immediate impact for when it eats a Terminate/Path/Liliana trigger or whatever. Ojoutai can at least avoid everything except sweepers/edicts and Thrag/Titans have an immediate impact. Drawing Eldrazi Conscription is pretty terrible too, as you said.

I'm kind of shying away from Geist in this deck, I guess I really shouldn't be since getting through blockers is what Retreat does and having exalted is great too, but I just think we can do better right now.

New kiora doesn't seem as good as something like old Elspeth. Jumping a creature, especially KotR or Rhox or Primetime, seems like it'd be one of the best planeswalker modes out there for us. Tokens are always decent too.

Minamo is pretty sweet with Dragonlord Ojutai, somehow I've been missing that interaction. Probably unncessary since we could just save a fetchland with Retreat, making Ojutai even more enticing.

My problem with Primeval Titan is it doesn't seem "unfair" enough. There are no Amulet/Valakut shenanigans or the like here and I don't know how good the Wolf-Run plan actually is in a format with efficient removal like Modern. I think Sun Titan might actually be higher impact in this sort of shell. Granted, my only experience with Prime Time/Wolf-Run is from Standard, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Without testing I don't know how viable Geist actually is in conjunction with Retreat, but I think its worth exploring. I still suspect you would need to play other cards that make Geist good, which might not make him worth running.

I hadn't noticed the Retreat interaction with Ojutai. That plus Knight for Minamo makes Ojutai look very appealing in this shell. I think you want another big win con though since you can't play too many copies of Ojutai.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Well the real point of Prime time is that he turns every mana dork you own into a need-to-be-removed threat. Kessig + 6 lands is pretty scary pretty fast, so if your opponent isn't blowing removal on your mana dorks you're going to be killing them pretty quickly. One of the best ways to beat a control deck is to make them waste removal on your mana dorks, I've won games off of Assault Formation with Birds of Paradise because being able to hit for 2-3 damage a turn does warrant removal.

Primal Command is another great card for an additional threat. It would allow us to just play 1 of a large number of threats, when we figure out which ones are the best. Ojutai is great but there could be better finishers out there. Ojutai + kessig wolf run makes me smile.

EDIT: updated OP with decklist I think is better than previous. Still no real testing yet.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I'm kind of shying away from Geist in this deck, I guess I really shouldn't be since getting through blockers is what Retreat does and having exalted is great too, but I just think we can do better right now.

Agreed 100%.

New kiora doesn't seem as good as something like old Elspeth. Jumping a creature, especially KotR or Rhox or Primetime, seems like it'd be one of the best planeswalker modes out there for us. Tokens are always decent too.

I put an Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the one flex slot I had left after retooling and she has been amazing for all the obvious reasons.

Minamo is pretty sweet with Dragonlord Ojutai, somehow I've been missing that interaction. Probably unncessary since we could just save a fetchland with Retreat, making Ojutai even more enticing.

I came to the same conclusion, that just fetching a land and using the Retreat to untap things is better than running Minamo, as this deck sometimes wants to keep 1 land hands and that only works if the land produces green.

Here's the list I've been jamming since last night. I'm very happy with it. The sideboard is loose and not finalized by any stretch.

Bant Retreat
CREATURES
1 Baneslayer Angel - some decks just can't beat Baneslayer
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix - super helpful when you've taken a lot of damage and assemble the combo, as it keeps you alive
1 Dragonlord Ojutai - a total bomb. Sigarda, Host of Herons could fill a similar role, but Ojutai's Anticipate is generally better
1 Fauna Shaman - with so many 1-of bullets, why not a 1-of tutor for them?
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Lotus Cobra - this snake does broken things and makes it really easy to get sufficient Wolf Run mana
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Primeval Titan
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many - this deck is looking to 1-shot kill and Rafiq makes it happen
2 Rhox War Monk
SPELLS
1 Dromoka's Command - utility at its best (not much cant walk away from a fight with KotR or Prime Time)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Path to Exile
1 Primal Command - utilitutor
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
LAND
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Breeding Pool
1 Dryad Arbor - mostly insurance against Liliana of the Veil in grindy matchups
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run - necessary in many games, even if just for the trample, but usually a pump for a few as well
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Slayers' Stronghold - a real powerhouse here; haste + vigilance (see Amulet Bloom)
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Eternal Witness
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Glissa Sunseeker - this might be too "fun," but going machine gun on Affinity feels nice (Glissa does a reasonable Goblin Sharpshooter impression
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Plow Under
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

The only card I'd really like to fit into the maindeck yet at this point is Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion. It would probably have to be the 24th land, as its colorless mana production is limiting. It's also a little awkward to generate the sufficient mana at times, as you're almost exclusively in the market for it the same turn that you're activating Slayers' Stronghold, though Primeval Titan's attack trigger can untap 2 mana dorks via Retreat (or a KotR, which will work out the rest).

[Phoenix Ignition]

How has Rhox been? I want to up the Primal commands since they're devastating against most slow decks, and can be played turn 3 without much trouble here. It gives us game against Tron if we don't see our combo, and +7 life against burn is game over if they don't Skullcrack in response. If I'm running that many Primals I think it's safe to drop Rhox.

Primal would also take over Fauna Shaman's slot, who seems fine but not as good as Primal due to the swiss army knife style of the card.

Is lotus cobra necessary? 8 Mana dorks is already going to be gumming up the works if we hit mid/late game, and doesn't accelerate us into our 3 drop which is the main problem I have with it. My main focus is to not have too many dead cards in here.

Have you ever used Slayers Stronghold for the haste? It seems very niche since you'd need 3 lands in addition to whatever you're casting. +2/+0 is fine, but all lands must be scrutinized since the manabase is going to be very important to the combo.

Speaking of, have you ever run into a situation where Liliana hits something other than a mana dork? I'm just wary of the hands where you have to play Dryad Arbor early and it just eats a bolt, or even worse a Pyroclasm.

[CaptainTwiddle]

How has Rhox been? I want to up the Primal commands since they're devastating against most slow decks, and can be played turn 3 without much trouble here. It gives us game against Tron if we don't see our combo, and +7 life against burn is game over if they don't Skullcrack in response. If I'm running that many Primals I think it's safe to drop Rhox.

Rhox has been good. I'm going to try cutting down to 1 and adding the Suhome.

Primal would also take over Fauna Shaman's slot, who seems fine but not as good as Primal due to the swiss army knife style of the card.

I like Primal Command over Fauna Shaman in general, but I thought having another cheap play might be advantageous.

Is lotus cobra necessary? 8 Mana dorks is already going to be gumming up the works if we hit mid/late game, and doesn't accelerate us into our 3 drop which is the main problem I have with it. My main focus is to not have too many dead cards in here.

Cobra isn't "necessary," but it's pretty good. I doesn't accel into 3-drops, but it does allow for as much as 8 mana on turn 3 (T1: land, dortk T2: Cobra, fetch land, Dork, crack the fetch, dork, dork T3: tap 3 dorks, play/crack a fetch, tap 3 lands). Hence I'm only running 2. We could try just running 1, but then it's so infrequently seen early that it's probably not worth it.

Have you ever used Slayers Stronghold for the haste? It seems very niche since you'd need 3 lands in addition to whatever you're casting. +2/+0 is fine, but all lands must be scrutinized since the manabase is going to be very important to the combo.

Yes. I find myself using Slayers' Stronghold for haste in most games, ideally making Primeval Titan swing immediately but also sometime just letting a KotR immediately get active. It's also really nice with Ojutai (vigilance = hexproof).

...have you ever run into a situation where Liliana hits something other than a mana dork? I'm just wary of the hands where you have to play Dryad Arbor early and it just eats a bolt, or even worse a Pyroclasm.

I've saved a big KotR by fetching Dryad Arbor once against Jund. They had bolts for my mana dorks and I needed to chump block a Goyf, but I played a KotR with a fetch up.

[Jon]

I'm surprised to see the dislike of lotus Cobra from some of you, all my testing has lead me to a mythic bant style deck with retreats .


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I think it's just me. I've tried him out a lot, every time I get him he's a win-more or do-nothing with exactly zero in between. If you aren't playing something very similar to my decklist it's probably going to be completely different, but I've been thoroughly unimpressed.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Lotus Cobra is a really unique card. The margins between it being Mediocre, Great, or Win More are very narrow. I like it. I think of it as another mana dork that provides all colors and occasionally allows for ridiculous things. It also draws your opponent's removal, as no one has ever tried to do anything fair or reasonable with Lotus Cobra. That said, it is fragile, is another poor top-deck later in the game, and isn't the best in combat. I think there are reasonable arguments either way and individual builds will affect that a lot. I actually got it in my head the other day to try a build with more Cobras, Eldrazi Conscription, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Academy Researchers, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, and a few other powerful auras...then I regained my sanity.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I actually got it in my head the other day to try a build with more Cobras, Eldrazi Conscription, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Academy Researchers, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, and a few other powerful auras...then I regained my sanity.

This sounds awesome, but yeah, really all-or-nothingy. If only they had Hexproof...

I've been testing a Mythic Bant style deck And have found it superior to Hooglands list.

I consider myself pretty literate in magic-talk and have no idea what you're saying here. What Mythic Bant deck and I don't really follow hoogland, care to explain?

[CaptainTwiddle]

I don't know if this is something I necessarily want to pursue with the current builds being discussed, but it was brought to my attention that Ruin Ghost + Retreat to Coralhelm (and a land that enters the battlefield untapped and produces W) = infinite landfall triggers, which can translate to just about anything: infinite P/T, life gain, life drain, mana, etc.

Ruin Ghost is incredibly fragile, so it's not something that I would really want to build around directly, but if it could be included to provide reasonable utility outside of the combos, then I'd be interested. The fact that Ruin Ghost is a Spirit may be of some relevance.

Just food for thought at this point. If I come up with a brew around this, I'll probably start a different thread.

[Jon]

I've been testing a Mythic Bant style deck And have found it superior to Hooglands list.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[foilpollouteddelta]

In my build I'm playing 2-4 coiling oracle 2 scavenging ooze 4 noble heirarch 4 knight and a spicy 4 of vinelasher kudzu. The kudzu has impressed me alot when I combo off due to being an auxiliary knight I'm also playing 2 oujatais command to rebuy value 2 drops.

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