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Thread: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

  1. #21
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    You may lose flash but you get to play Knight, which is a real magic card, as opposed to exarch and twin which do nothing on their own.

  2. #22
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Ah, the question more precisely is: where this deck uses knight/retreat, what would the games have looked like if you were casting splinter twin on pestermite/exarch. What match-ups were more favorable with your approach, and what challenges did you face by losing the 3-drop's flash and opening yourself up to yard hate.
    Combo pieces being not dead by themselves plus tons of shuffle effects for Brainstorm/JMS/Library definitely seems stronger than a Twin approach.

  3. #23

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Thanks y'all.

    I posted a couple responses/comments by re-editing the main thread.

    I don't know if the deck is good. The biggest problem is that Knight is Plan A and Knight is Plan B. I tested Sylvan Safekeeper as extensively as anything (it was literally the 61st card until a couple days ago), but almost always hated it, even against the BUG decks. I could see a Maverick-y-er version (with Mom) being good or even better, but that's not what I wanted to play.

    In my testing, Wolf Run is necessary, and alternatives are bad. A normal combo turn generates 10+ mana with a dork, 5+ without, and not having KWR means opening yourself up to several DRS activations keeping you from a lethal attack, TNN, et. al blocking the way, and Batterskull life gain (or early StP) putting their life out of reach. Moreover, you need a balance of fetches (which are important for fixing and Retreat-without-Knight) and forests/plains to get. If you run out of the later, on combo turn, you have to end your combo by turning your real lands into Wasteland and Karakas and Wasting yourself to get Knight high enough. If something goes wrong, that's real bad. Moreover, Wolf Run is a solid Knight target in many matches for getting in an extra few points or avoiding pesky chump blockers (TNN/Pyromancer tokens/Elves).

    Finding Retreat (as only a 4-off) was not really a problem, and I might try 3. If I have an active Knight, I'm usually doing something I'm okay with, and (especially post-board) can usually do something to combat what they're doing. apple713's comments that it isn't a comment deck are correct, but I don't think the deck is bad without the combo. It might be bad overall, but not seeing the combo doesn't do that alone.

    I didn't test against infect. I'm all for tutor targets, but, I don't think it's probably that bad. I have like 8 removal (counting EE/Staticaster, not counting Pridemage/Grip/Needle/Judgment) post-board, 7 counters, and can win quickly. Maze is probably real good.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  4. #24
    Joe Cool Above All
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Stoneforge probably takes up too much space for a plan B, but could two TNN work? Big congrats on the finish!

  5. #25

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by HSCK View Post
    Stoneforge probably takes up too much space for a plan B, but could two TNN work? Big congrats on the finish!
    3-drop clumping is already pretty rough, though, a secondary plan that dodges removal is nice. To wit, I considered taking a page from the Modern brewing and playing 2ish Geist, which synergizes well with Retreat (clearing blockers), Maze, Exalted, and Force, and provides a pretty reasonable clock compared to the alternatives.

    I usually hate SFM in Bant decks, since it feels like the momentum of having 8-dorks is all but lost when using the.. slowest.. threat.. ever. TNN obviously changed that in big ways, since it stopped being a choice between accelerating into a good 3-mana thing (Knight) and a super-slow-but-good 2+2/3+2 mana thing (SFM+sword) and became a great 2+2/3+3+2 (SFM+TNN+sword) mana thing. Without TNN, SFM is still relevant (and equipment soups up mediocre threats like Pridemage), but it is really a lot of slots.

    It's probably not Tarmogoyf, but, if the deck changed dramatically (i.e., played Ponder), it could be.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  6. #26
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Just wanted to pop in here and say grats on T4, and sweet brew! Was catching some of your matches when I could! Looked super fun!
    Find me on Twitter: @beanaman

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  7. #27
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesian View Post
    Maybe maindeck Meddling Mage might be a possibility, against Abrubt Decay?

    Nice run and deckcheck. I also like these quotes:
    "Yeah, so the deck's actual name is..." and "I play no Modern at all."
    Yes!

  8. #28
    Emptying the Warrens

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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Hello! Loving the deck. Absolutely sold on it, and want to play it at GP Tacoma. I have a few questions for you:


    Why are you playing envelope? What matchups does it come in for?

    What are you doing to combat combo decks? I mean, force of will is decent, but I feel like you're really lacking post-board.

    What is your sideboard plans for miracles?

    What would you suggest I focus on in my practice with this deck?

    If you aren't playing staticaster anymore, what are you playing?

    Actually, what's your sideboard plan for the general meta?
    Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!

  9. #29
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Congrats! It's cool to see the Knight + Retreat combo perform well and how streamlined the maindeck has become.

    Does someone have the link to the future match somewhere? The link in the original post point to the deck tech.

  10. #30

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Nicely done. Seeing decks change and improve over time is one of the best parts of the game.

  11. #31
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Awesome job.

    I wonder if this deck might take the Shardless BUG approach -- play a fair midrange game 1 (with the added potential to just combo off) and then run your anti-combo cards in the sideboard. GSZ definitely seems under-played and is one of the best tutor cards available in Legacy. So perhaps Daze and FoW might end up in the SB alongside Meddling Mage.

    I'm curious, how much would the current build suffer if I played 4 BoP instead of Hierarchs? NH is the one legacy staple I currently don't own as I sold them way back when I stopped playing Maverick.

  12. #32

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by monovfox View Post
    Hello! Loving the deck. Absolutely sold on it, and want to play it at GP Tacoma. I have a few questions for you:


    Why are you playing envelope? What matchups does it come in for?

    What are you doing to combat combo decks? I mean, force of will is decent, but I feel like you're really lacking post-board.

    What is your sideboard plans for miracles?

    What would you suggest I focus on in my practice with this deck?

    If you aren't playing staticaster anymore, what are you playing?

    Actually, what's your sideboard plan for the general meta?
    So, big-picture, I hopefully can slow combo decks with counters (and I guess Clique) to the point of doing something more winning-y - either GSZ'ing an effective win-con, landing a Knight that can tutor out the right land, or combo'ing off. This can go poorly, and my T8 match ended quickly after mull'ing to mediocre disruption was beaten by his disruption->fast combo in all 3 games (I should have lost game 2 as well). Storm can be okay (9 counters, 2 cliques, grave hate, teeg), but those games weren't close.
    Take, e.g., Show and Tell. I don't have any dedicated board slots for it, but post-board I have 9 counters, 2 Cliques, Karakas, and Crop Rotation + 4 Knight + 4 Zenith to find Knight->Karakas. That's 21 slots I'm very happy to see, and resolving Show and Tell while I'm holding Knight probably (not always) favors me.

    Envelop is fantastic. When considering Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, and Swan Song, I prefer the latter 2 when (a) Miracles is prominent, (b) it hits the main pieces of the top-tier combo decks, and/or (c) recent prominence of Pierce means its getting played around more. The third one is hard to judge, but most SnT decks accept some number of sol lands, so that's fine. The first two leave it perfectly-timed: Miracles is quite common (and Terminus is terrible with all the mana dorks), and hitting SnT, storm's tutors, NO/GSZ in Elves, and most reanimation spells is perfect. Many of those are coming from decks with the ability to pay through soft counters if they expect them, and an unconditional counter for their most important spells is huge. You leave behind the ability to counter Jace or random things (blood moon), and miss the parts of some combo decks (infect), but I'm mostly fine with that. I've considered a split with flusterstorm. As gravy, Envelop hits Ancestral Visions, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Pulse, and Deluge from Shardless. Again, Pierce/Flusterstorm on Visions is terrible. It comes in for Miracles, Shardless, and sorcery-driven combo.

    This points toward a lot of my fair-deck boarding plan, which is to cut force against most fair decks and not worry too much about protecting Knight. Daze sometimes usually stays on the play, but I see so many Knights/Zenith that I'd rather make them have it repeatedly than lose cards to Force. This could be wrong. I'm going to at least consider dropping the number of maindeck FoW, maybe to 0, though I dodged a lot of combo this weekend, so that's skewed.

    I've totally split on miracles, and whether I want the combo. Probably I think they can stall for long enough to just win with terminus if I go all in, so if I keep it, it might mean not activating for such a large swing (since ending with Taiga+KWR in place of real lands, with no lands left in my deck, and my guys on the bottom of my deck, is brutal). I want Envelop, Pridemage, Teeg, Grip, and Needle (6) at least, and probably EE and Judgment. I either cut the package (4 retreat, 1 steppe, 1 kwr) and 2 swords OR -3 Daze -2 Force -3 Swords on the play, -4 Force -1 Daze -3 Swords on draw.

    Not sure about staticaster. It is good, and good against a lot (tokens, elves, dnt, infect), combos with retreat, and isn't terrible on the mana. I only know, for changes, that I want Maze and a 2nd Crop Rotation.

    Practice combo turns, and (like with storm or something) assume they have creature removal, enchantment removal, flash blocker, 25 life, etc. See first post.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  13. #33

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    Awesome job.

    I wonder if this deck might take the Shardless BUG approach -- play a fair midrange game 1 (with the added potential to just combo off) and then run your anti-combo cards in the sideboard. GSZ definitely seems under-played and is one of the best tutor cards available in Legacy. So perhaps Daze and FoW might end up in the SB alongside Meddling Mage.

    I'm curious, how much would the current build suffer if I played 4 BoP instead of Hierarchs? NH is the one legacy staple I currently don't own as I sold them way back when I stopped playing Maverick.
    FoW may well belong in the board. Daze is still pretty good - lots of mana guys means we often get a strong t3/t4 play and it's fantastic with the tap-out aggro openings.
    Hierarch is real good.. Bird's not terrible, but Clique/Pridemage win more than you might expect.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  14. #34

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Congrats! It's cool to see the Knight + Retreat combo perform well and how streamlined the maindeck has become.

    Does someone have the link to the future match somewhere? The link in the original post point to the deck tech.
    Streamlined from?
    Some one mentioned that they saw some dailies, but I haven't seen other (legacy) lists. Would love to compare.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  15. #35

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    "It's not the name, but we're calling it Reliquary Retreat"

    Ahhh scg, back to their old bullshit again.
    Nothing quite like forcing out community nomenclature with words that are Wizard approved for representing color combinations!

  16. #36
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    I've been trying this deck in the bant deck after some suggestions from Anwei

    More often than not, you are winning off of exalted creatures.

    I still believe 4 retreats are too much.

  17. #37

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by anwei View Post
    So, big-picture, I hopefully can slow combo decks with counters (and I guess Clique) to the point of doing something more winning-y - either GSZ'ing an effective win-con, landing a Knight that can tutor out the right land, or combo'ing off. This can go poorly, and my T8 match ended quickly after mull'ing to mediocre disruption was beaten by his disruption->fast combo in all 3 games (I should have lost game 2 as well). Storm can be okay (9 counters, 2 cliques, grave hate, teeg), but those games weren't close.
    Take, e.g., Show and Tell. I don't have any dedicated board slots for it, but post-board I have 9 counters, 2 Cliques, Karakas, and Crop Rotation + 4 Knight + 4 Zenith to find Knight->Karakas. That's 21 slots I'm very happy to see, and resolving Show and Tell while I'm holding Knight probably (not always) favors me.
    ...
    I wonder Leyline of Sanctity might be an alternative or supplemental combo hate option. (It's not terrible if it only blanks the opponent's discard or edict effects.)

  18. #38

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I wonder Leyline of Sanctity might be an alternative or supplemental combo hate option. (It's not terrible if it only blanks the opponent's discard or edict effects.)
    It's obviously a fine card, but it's tough competition for slots when any land or green creature gets a virtual 10/5 copies. Even something like Dryad Militant, while much less powerful overall against storm, becomes relevant 5x as often. Obviously, there are diminishing returns on having Teeg+Militant, but, toolboxing is addictive and ruins me on other sideboard options...
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  19. #39

    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    Quote Originally Posted by anwei View Post
    It's obviously a fine card, but it's tough competition for slots when any land or green creature gets a virtual 10/5 copies. Even something like Dryad Militant, while much less powerful overall against storm, becomes relevant 5x as often. Obviously, there are diminishing returns on having Teeg+Militant, but, toolboxing is addictive and ruins me on other sideboard options...
    I guess the answer is just that this kind of deck just isn't going to be great against storm combo since you can get a whole lot of equity in other match-ups with the toolbox.

  20. #40
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    Re: Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

    When I see this it reminds me to the days of New Horizon. I honestly see that to be the best route of the deck. Running stifle and playing a more controlling list. Stifle seems to be a good fit in this deck and the return of terravore. Congrats on the finish! After playing Bant CBT to NO Bant To NO RUG ORDER to playing Rug Delver for the longest time, I can now break out my tundras again. Thank you!

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