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Thread: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

  1. #1

    [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    This deck originally came about when I decided to build Death and Taxes and realized I hated the deck. No, really, D&T is a terrible deck; play something better.

    Regardless of what the deck WAS, what is is now is a boat full of hate, capable of playing through almost anything to lock an opponent out of the game and kill people dead. It has game against every single tier-one deck, most of them with extremely positive matchups, and is just generally brutal against Legacy as a format. The game plan is fairly simple: Get to three mana (preferably turn one), play a game-breaking hate card, kill your opponent. The deck plays a powerful and diverse hate suit, and plays it more effectively than any other deck in the format.

    With that out of the way, here's the current list:

    // Deck: Moxen Mass (NoG Mass) (60)

    // Lands
    1 Ancient Den
    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Ghost Quarter
    4 Glimmervoid
    1 Great Furnace
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Vault of Whispers
    4 Wasteland

    // Creatures
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Notion Thief

    // Sorceries
    4 Day's Undoing
    4 Vindicate

    // Enchantments
    3 Ghirapur Ęther Grid

    // Artifacts
    4 Chrome Mox
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Mox Opal
    3 Trinisphere

    // Planeswalkers
    1 Dack Fayden
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 Academy Ruins
    SB: 2 Aura of Silence
    SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
    SB: 1 Dack Fayden
    SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
    SB: 2 Meddling Mage
    SB: 2 Spellskite

    The Card Choices
    Maindeck
    The Mana
    Wasteland & Ghost Quarter: These are your primary mana denial plan. Also phenomenal at killing utility lands of all stripes. Ghost Quarter are wastelands 5-8; any deck that GQ isn't a strip mine against has plenty of utility lands that you want to kill anyway or plays Blood Moon (or is called Miracles, but we'll get to that.)
    Artifact Lands (Seat of the Synod, Great Furnace, Ancient Den, Vault of Whispers): These help fix your mana, turn on Mox Opal, give you lands to hit with Tezzeret, and kill people with Grid. Worth considering playing more that 4, but null rod is a real card and we only want to get blown out so much.
    Ancient Tomb: The Sol Land of choice. The life loss is non-ideal, but it's one last way to hit three mana turn one, makes 4 mana turn one much more feasible, and helps you power out rocks and spells under a 3ball. Also helps get you where you need to be if they play Null Rod//Chalice on 0.
    Glimmervoid: Effectively a zero-downside rainbow land. There will be awkward hands where getting your turn one play forced means losing your Voids. This just hammers home how important sequencing is with this deck.
    The Hate
    Aven Mindcensor: The keystone for the land destruction package. The search hate is effective and unavoidable, Flash gives it the surprise and post- Day's Undoing play. This will be a three-mana white Vindicate surprisingly often, but that isn't a negligible effect. Also a very valid kill condition.
    Notion Thief Absurdly powerful and heavily underrated because of it's mana cost. Very capable of locking opponents out of the game, especially when they're on the "keep an ok hand and brainstorm" plan (ridiculously common) or when their deck depends on cantrips (Hello, Storm!) Combos beautifully with Day's Undoing (No hand or graveyard for you, 14 cards for me) and Dack Fayden (You discard two, I'll draw two. Every turn. Forever.) Makes JTMS and Brainstorm actually terrible, great at assassinating all the walkers, ponder, preordain and git probe are all extremely suboptimal once this is on the board, griselbrand is just a fat lifelinker... The possiblities are endless and beautiful.
    Vindicate Your All-Purpose NO button. The only permanents in the format this DOESN'T deal with are Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Blightsteel Colossus, Nimble Mongoose, True-Name Nemisis, and Inkwell Leviathan. Two get owned by dack, one gets eaten by EE/Chalice post board, and ALL of them are useless in the face of Ensnaring Bridge. On the upside, this'll blow up the lands they need to get to any of the above, fair magic or not.
    Ghirapur Ęther Grid Wrecks creature strategies of every stripe. Anything that plays creatures and doesn't lose to this loses to Ensnaring Bridge and/or Trinisphere+Land destruction. Kills people and planeswalkers. Makes that chrome mox you dropped with no imprint to turn on Metalcraft relevant, and lets all those other hate permanents and lands kill your opponent and his creatures/walkers. Incredibly powerful with the mana base and hate suite.
    Crucible of Worlds: Cements the wasteland/GQ lock, helps stabilize the mana, just generally good.
    Ensnaring Bridge: Stops those big, terrible things sneak and show, reanimator, telve post and mud do from mattering, Also happens to make Goyf and Gurmag Angler fairly irrelevant. And, really, with the way this deck empties it's hand, it also stops elves, pyromancer, delver, TNN, batterskull... do I really need to keep going?
    The Dig
    Day's Undoing So, all that card advantage you're giving up to get three mana early? Want to recover it? How about locking your opponent into hellbent with no graveyard? What about forcing them to mulligan that perfect seven they ripped into whatever the hell they draw off a new shuffle? Day's Undoing does all of these things, and more. The card advantage is real here. Emptying your hand is disgustingly eary with this deck, even with a 3ball on board, and Day's undoing lets you reload into all of the hate while wiping out their yard. You'll cast this with a 3ball and opponent at no land a LOT. It does work.
    Trinisphere: The almighty 3ball. An absolute beating against the format, especially T1 backed by wasteland + crucible (game over?) This does actual everything for you: It's a must-counter against a huge portion of the format, which lets you bait counterspell like a boss (Then play the piece of hate that actually ends the game), or resolves and makes their counterspells useless or the opponent's rocks useless, or their delvers terrible, or... I mean, the list just goes on and on and on. Iit really is the almighty 3ball. This is basically ALWAYS a good play.
    Dack Fayden: Primarily for the dig. Helps with several problem permanents, either by grabbing them for sacrificial blocks, game ending returns, or simple hate. Beautiful combo with Notion Thief for card advantage and opponent discard, but be careful of Bolt/STP in response. Very good for baiting counterspells and great fixing on a Chrome.
    Tezzerert, Agent of Bolas: Card advantage, dig, board presence, and a lethal ult that also lets you stabilize; Tezz is ALL value here. Very powerful card.
    The Board
    Academy Ruins: Helps keep the hate flowing through Abrupt Decay and Force of Will decks. Bring it in if you expect a heavy midgame or lots of grips/decays/forces/claims.
    Aura of Silence: Proactive AND reactive hate against the other artifact decks of the format. Kills needles, null rods, and a host of other annoying permanents that make your life difficult, and makes them much harder to get out to begin with.
    Chalice of the Void: This is probably the best Chalice deck in the format. Chalice on 2 is as viable as on 1, and nearly as easy to play. Game ending against about half the format.Much better on the play than the draw, but usually worth bring a few in anyway.
    Dack Fayden: Extra for the SFM/Midrange/MUD/D&T. Also good against anything you think will go long and want the extra card filtering in.
    Engineered Explosives: Good against Elves, D&T, and as a general removal spell (Pithing needle, I'm looking at you). Not as good as it normally is against Tokens because of the high number of 0-mana permanents you have in the deck, but still a good 'oh shit' button..Comes in any time you want more removal or expect permanent-based hate.
    Meddling Mage: Generally good card against the format and good at stopping Abrupt Decay.
    Spellskite: Great against Infect and Burn and helps keep those pesky abrupt decay decks from wrecking your face. Makes the Bolts they kept in extremely sub-optimal. Blocks like a champ. Recurrable with Academy Ruins.

    Matchups
    Infect
    One of the more difficult tempo matchups. Wasteland and qhost quarter are quite powerful here, as their low mana count lets us lock them out of the game fairly often, and stops Inkmoth and Pendlehaven from killing you. Be careful not to get blown out by a crop rotation or Vines. Day's Undoing plays interestingly; casting it when they have an infecter on board is usually game over, but casting it before will let you reload in relative safety. Grid locks them out of the game hard. Trinisphere is much more relevant than you would intially expect, but remember that Become Immense gets around the tax effect. Don't be afraid to flash in your creatures to assassinate theirs. Ensnaring Bridge is surprisingly useful; keeping your hand empty to kill their main plan goes a long way. They will kill you with nobles if you can't find an answer. Post board, watch out for Needles and their glut of artifact/enchantment removal. Spellskite is an all-star.
    Delver
    Generally favorable. Abrupt decay from the Green variants is a pain. Significantly more favorable on the play when you can lock them out before they play a threat.
    Canadian Thresh
    Probably our best Delver matchup. Day's Undoing does a lot of work here, putting Goyf in range of Grid and shrinking Goose to a tiny threat. Extremely vulnerable to the land destruction plan, keep an eye on how many colored sources they have left in the deck and consider sandbagging Day's if it means giving them back their mana base. Ensnaring bridge is a great way to stay alive, but beware of dropping to death by bolt. Your creatures do a lot of work assassinating theirs, shitting all over their game plan, and absorbing bolts you don't want pointed at your face. Tezzeret clogs up the ground very well and his ult helps keep you out of bolt range. Post-board, beware the artifact removal. Chalice on one wins games, Skite blocks for days and absorbs kill spells, and Engineered Explosives kills all of their threats. Beware of Life from the Loam making your mana denial plan ineffective. Their glt of counterspells makes Academy Ruins a very strong card.
    BURg
    This version is probably the most difficult variant. Gurmag Angler is a quick clock that avoids the 3ball tax but gets stalemated by Bridge and Tezz. Deathright is a bit of a pain, but fairly slow to kill you. Grid is an all-star. Otherwise, plays like every other delver matchup without the annoyance that is the hard-to-kill Mongoose. Watch out for discard post board and make sure your hand can survive a turn one Thoughtseize, whether from the card itself or a lucky Therapy. Chalice is great, as always, and EE helps keep their board steady and under control. Spellskite helps mitigate the ten billion Decays and keep Thieves/3balls/Chalice alive.
    Patriot Delver
    Needs testing. Can't imagine it's bad. Boarding is probably much more reminicient of Stoneblade than other Delver decks.
    Team America
    Needs testing. Probably very similar to BURg without the reach of Bolt and more Decays.
    Miracles
    Ridiculously good. Grid kills all their wincons except Entreat; preboard Ensnaring Bridge stops that plan, and post board EE blows them all to hell. Their best game plan is an early entreat. Don't be afraid to Vindicate solitary Angel tokens. Notion Thief laughs at Jace. Be careful if you lock them out with Bridge; Notion thief can turn it back on for them. Don't be afraid to kill your own thieves with Grid if you have to. Council's Judgement is annoying. Don't be afraid to aggressively play redundant hate. Mostly, they can't put an effective clock on you. Punish them with a slow death by Grid.
    Storm
    ANT
    Ridiculously good. Like infect and other fast combo decks, they can still get under you, but their window is VERY small. Day's Undoing is suprisingly safe, as they often need to sculpt a fresh seven to go off and removing their yard resets a lot of their prep. Notion Thief, 3ball and Mindcensor all wreck their day. Dack is great for forcing them to pop their rocks early once they realize what you're doing. Post board, beware of turn one discard wrecking your hand, early Empty the Warrens forcing you to go deep on Aether Grid, and ten billion abrupt decay. Chalice and Aura of Silence do work here.
    TES
    See above, but be even more scared of early Empties. Mana destruction is absurdly good. (I have very limited testing here; other opinions are welcome.)
    Burn
    Needs more testing. Trinispher acts much like Rule of Law against them, and often slows them enough for you to stabilize or lock them out. Prioritize Tezz, his ult makes him a must kill. Post Board, Chalice and Spellskite do work.
    Go Big Combo
    Ensnaring Bridge is the name of the game here. As soon as you can land it safely, do so.
    Sneak and Show
    Needs More Testing. Often worth keeping your Bridge for when they Show. The overwhelming majority of S&S decks simply can't beat it pre-board. Like most combo matchups, Notion Thief does a ton of work, with the added benefit of making Gdaddy laughable. As always, be careful to keep your bridge online when Notion Thief is out. Mana Destruction and 3ball will hopefully slow them down enough to let you find the Bridge. Remember not to scoop until you're dead; you'll often find a bridge in the turns they spend looking for a fatty after a successful Sneak activation. Aura of Silence post board makes Sneak much more difficult. Get a clock on them ASAP. Chalice is good but not unbeatable here.
    Reanimator
    Needs More Testing. See above, but with the added benifit of Day's wiping out their yard and the annoyance that is Decay post board. Skites over Aura on the board and be careful against the turn one thoughtseize. Remember that Mindcensor shuts off Entomb. Chalice is significantly more effective against them, and you are one of very few decks that can quckly, easily and profitably set it to 2.
    MUD
    Needs more testing. Pre-board they generally won't know to set their chalices at 0, so that helps. The coin flip is very important. Dack is an all-star. Aura out of the board is highly profitable. You play 8 strip mine, use them.
    12Post
    Needs More Testing. Another deck where your 8 strip mines do work. Dack-ing Candelabra can put a huge dent in their plans, and, as with miracles, clever timing with Dack and Mindcensor can force them to bury their Top. Much more effective here where they need their lands in the face of your mana denial. Boarding in Aura is probably worth it.
    Midrange
    These all need more testing. Most of these decks love abrupt decay, which is very annoying. Spellskite is good post board for clogging up the ground and keeping their decays ineffective. Mana Denial is huge, because almost all these decks are incredibly greedy with their mana bases. Think before you kill their Bob if their mana is tied up hard; card advantage isn't as big a deal when you play Day's undoing. That said, Notion thief is very good at flipping CA swings on their heads and locking an opponent out of the game, and is possibly the best response to JtMS ever printed. Grid, Thief and Tezz tend to define these matches. You live and die on the sequencing of your threats; save the highest impact for last unless you expect to get Thoughtsiezed or Hymned. Trinisphere is generally lower-impact but problematic enough that they almost always burn the counterspell on it and makes them much harder to play if they don't, so it's generally the best first threat. Practice, learn to read your opponent, and practice more. These decks are designed to be 50/50 against the field and let you capitalize on player skill. Make sure you aren't at a disadvantage on that front. Remember they play thoughtsieze when deciding whether to mulligan.
    Esper Stoneblade
    Revel in their lack of Abrupt Decay, and punish them for trying to play a more stable mana base. Dack their equipment to suit up your guys for fun and profit. Grid continues to over perform. TNN is a pain and puts you on a Bridge or Die plan very quickly, although you can often race it, especially if they're playing Bob. Watch out for Needle effects post-board
    Deathblade
    Same as above, but with a shittier manabase. Prioritize keeping them off green to make Abrupt Decay a non-issue.
    Shardless BUG
    The Blue Jund Menace. Trinisphere is much better here because of it's interaction with Cascade. Notion thief-ing Ancestral is almost as good as notion thief-ing brainstorm.
    Punishing Jund
    Trinisphere, LD and Ensnaring Bridge are your most powerful cards. Punishing Fire makes your creatures significantly less effective, don't be afraid to trade them for your opponent's often and early. Notion thief is especially useless, although it does turn Library off.
    Stompy
    Death and Taxes
    The plan here is to go under them. Their lock takes time; don't give them any. Revoker is annoying and should be killed on sight whenever possible. Grid is a house and post board EE does work. Ensnaring Bridge is very good here. Again, Notion thief isn't very effective and will often be flashed in to block and kill something annoying. Dack does a lot of work. Aura of Silence comes in to soak Revokers and delay/kill other annoying permanents (Looking at you, Vial.)
    Fish
    No testing, very dependent on the fish build.
    All other Stompy Decks
    You are generally just faster than they are, so try to go under them. Ensnaring Bridge tends to be difficult for them to deal with. Post board they WILL chalice on 0, so be prepared for that. Aura of Silence helps a lot
    Lands
    No testing at all.
    Combo Lands
    Mindcensor shuts off their tutor package when it lives, Day's Undoing wipes out their yard, and you play more Wasteland effects than they do. The coin flip seems incredibly important. Not gonna lie, this is probably not a great matchup, but I have zero testing to support. Post board they have a billion Grips and you have Spellskite and Chalice on 1 & 2.
    Control Lands
    See above but much slower, and they're likely to have chalice of their own. *shug*
    Elves
    Limited testing. Grid does work and Ensnaring Bridge makes their endgame plan rather wobbly. Post board chalice and EE do work.
    Painter
    No Testing. Blood Moon seems very mediocre. Keep Painter killed dead. Welder is probably very annoying, especially with an artifact land in the yard.
    Dredge
    Manaless
    No Testing. Day's Undoing should do work, and Notion Thief stops them from turboing their deck into their yard. Grid lets you kill your own creatures to blow their bridges and maybe snipe narcomebae before they can profit too greatly.3ball stops flashback shenanigans and Ensnaring Bridge hampers their plan B.
    LED Dredge
    No Testing. See Above, but notion thief is twice as good and they won't be able to combo kill you through a bridge as often.
    T1 Glass Cannon Combo
    No Testing. Get that T1 3ball. Post Board, chalice on 0 stops a lot of the nonsense at the cost of slowing you WAAAAAAY down. Sequence appropriately.

    I do not have unlimited time, money, or access to the entire format, and as such my testing hasn't been exhaustive. If you have other matchup info to contribute, please do.

    Other Card Choices

    Reforge the Soul, Diminishing ReturnsThese are the other playable Wheel effects in the format. Of them, I've found Reforge to be the most effective by a lot.
    Leonin Arbiter: The other 'No Search' effect. I found Flash and Flying to be more relevant, and they can pay the tax about as often as they find something in the top 4 through the Mindcensor. YMMV.
    Erayo, Soratami Ascendant: Ridiculously easy to flip. Might be better in the board than Meddling Mage, which hasn't been ideal for me in playtesting.
    Rule of Law, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Arcane Sanctum, Ethersworn Canonist: I don't think these do anything for the deck that Trinisphere doesn't already do. Combo with Erayo to effectively completely lock your opponent out of the game, but 3ball and Crucible do that too,
    Dust Bowl: An alternative to some number of Ghost Quarter in the main. The mana cost is steep and the card plays best with Crucible in play. Probably worth testing.
    Phyrexian Revoker: Another alternative to Mages, and our preferred Needle effect. Probably a meta call, although the meta seems real good for it now. YMMV.
    Scourglass: I think the timing restriction along with the mana cost makes this unplayable, but people have liked it against the midrange decks and heavy creature matches. YMMV.
    Nether Void: For when our almighty 3ball just isn't enough. Six mana can very realistically lock you out of the game too. YMMV.
    Rest in Peace, Tormad's Crypt, Leyline of the Void:Extra grave hate. I haven't particularly wanted it in any of my matchups. Leyline is probably the best of these, especially since it's relatively easy to hardcast in this deck.
    Slaughter Games Uncountable way to permanently get rid of things that are annoying or problematic, like abrupt decay, life from the loam, and clutch combo pieces. Possibly better than meddling mage purely because of how hard it is to stop.
    Stranglehold: Another 'No Search' effect. Notable for also negating Emrakul's cast trigger. Probably not good enough unless someone makes a legacy viable Taking Turns brew.
    Karmic Justice: An interesting solution to the Abrupt Decay/Pernicious Deed problem. May also be good against general artifact hate. Probably worth testing in the Aura of Silence slot.
    transmute artifact: tutor engine. Turns useless hate into super effective hate. Not too difficult to hit the 5 mana needed to turn dead moxen into 3balls or bridges or crucible. Needs testing.
    Last edited by angelbaka; 12-06-2015 at 08:11 PM.

  2. #2
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    Manaless
    No Testing. Day's Undoing and Ensnaring Bridge should do work, and Notion Thief stops them from turboing their deck into their yard. Grid lets you kill your own creatures to blow their bridges and maybe snipe narcomebae before they can profit to greatly.
    Ensnaring Bridge doesn't do shit vs. Manaless. They like to finish by Dread Returning a Balustrade Spy, flip the library, DR a Flayer of the Hatebound and finally DR a 30/30 Golgari Grave-Troll. It also doesn't necessarily care about Bridge from Below to combo out.

    Day's Undoing is a killer though, setting the deck back to turn 1 on the draw. Trinisphere is also a wonderful card in that MU, forcing them to take the route vulnerable to Ensnaring Bridge. But don't try to depend on Bridge alone.

    Seeing as you run no 1-drops, you might want to maindeck your Chalices.

  3. #3

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Ensnaring Bridge doesn't do shit vs. Manaless. They like to finish by Dread Returning a Balustrade Spy, flip the library, DR a Flayer of the Hatebound and finally DR a 30/30 Golgari Grave-Troll. It also doesn't necessarily care about Bridge from Below to combo out.

    Seeing as you run no 1-drops, you might want to maindeck your Chalices.
    The only person I know who played manaless played the quad lazer version with 4 ichorid. I don't exactly go out of my way to keep up with dredge tech. I also don't expect bridge to be the best card ever, but it DOES shut down their back up plan fairly effectively, and anything that interacts with dredge meaningfully game one is a plus in my book. Fixed the wording to make my intent more clear there.

    Trinisphere is better against the format as a whole than chalice is, so trinisphere gets the main deck slots. It is something I've considered, though, and in the right meta I'd even recommend maining chalice instead.

  4. #4
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    The only person I know who played manaless played the quad lazer version with 4 ichorid.
    Each and every Manaless build runs 4 Ichorid... It's what you actually kill your opponent with while threatening with the combo finish, but it's in no way necessary to ever attack your opponent when on Manaless. But I understand the sentiment . It's not something you'll face on a regular basis.

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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    How does Miracle MU is good ?! Did you ever played against it, really? Basically you are running 7 must counter spells. Which all of them can be spell pierced:
    3 Ghirapur Ęther Grid
    1 Dack Fayden
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    1 Crucible of Worlds

    3 of them can be just killed by Clique (walkers).

    So with so low thread density you will be trapped in hole name Stompy. Your power play will be good only on play if opponent doesn't have FoW.

    I also want to point out that CB / Top with cmc=3 is mostly game over, all your protection is just Trinisphere which can be ignored if not played turn 1-2.

    I like concept with use of cheap artifacts + Day's Undoing + 3 Ghirapur Ęther Grid, but for sure Miracle MU isn't favorable. I would change CotV MD to improve a lot of MU (combo, tempo, almost 75% of meta is hurt by chalice, so if your deck can run it MD - DO it).


    3 Aven Mindcensor - I would rather use Leonin Arbiter then censor, easier to cast on early turn, and probably better with GQ.
    3 Notion Thief - too qute to works

    Generally I would advice drop all creatures and try Stranglehold (it's same color as Ghirapur Ęther Grid) I can see that color requirement can be painful with so low color sources.

    4 Chrome Mox - how many times you don't have card to imprint ?
    Imprintable cards:
    1 Dack Fayden
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Notion Thief
    // Sorceries
    4 Day's Undoing
    4 Vindicate
    // Enchantments
    3 Ghirapur Ęther Grid
    20 cards so 1/3 cards, shouldn't be so bad, but how many times you imprint your all-star card just to land turn 1 Trini ?

    Second thing which I found trying to assamble Day's Undoying Stax - it's a problem after you reset hands, with Trini on table. Vintage stax can easy put next Shop as land and cast Mox same turn with a thread, here you don't have shops, best shot will be sol lands, which are turn to late to cast mana + thread same turn, that's why we don't have good stax in legacy.

    Ghirapur Ęther Grid could help if you could play artifacts on instant or are able to untap Trinisphere works like old good artifacts (tapped doesnt work :-)), you could make it less double side weapon.

    At the end - find solution to Pernicous Deed it's one side apocalypse. Needles or Karmic Justice is needed.

  6. #6

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    How does Miracle MU is good ?! Did you ever played against it, really? Basically you are running 7 must counter spells. Which all of them can be spell pierced:
    3 Ghirapur Ęther Grid
    1 Dack Fayden
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    1 Crucible of Worlds

    3 of them can be just killed by Clique (walkers).

    So with so low thread density you will be trapped in hole name Stompy. Your power play will be good only on play if opponent doesn't have FoW.
    Add Ensnaring Bridge and Trinisphere to this list. Miracles has real difficulty actually winning against this deck once Bridge resolves, and trinisphere makes it so they have a hell of a time actually stopping anything else. Spell Pierce is relatively easy to play around and Miracles gives me all the time in the world to do so. I actively encourage Miracles players to add to that time by killing Dack. Notion Thief is also a fair headache for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    I also want to point out that CB / Top with cmc=3 is mostly game over, all your protection is just Trinisphere which can be ignored if not played turn 1-2.
    I'd like to point out that this is basically the same game plan Sneak and Show runs against them, and even with Karakas (which is essentially a 'free' answer to their primary game plan) they are still weak enough against that deck that they want to board in several more answers to it, and even with that it's considered a mediocre matchup. Forcing a shuffle out of a Miracles player isn't hard with GQ and the LD package.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    3 Aven Mindcensor - I would rather use Leonin Arbiter then censor, easier to cast on early turn, and probably better with GQ.
    3 Notion Thief - too qute to works
    Generally I would advice drop all creatures and try Stranglehold (it's same color as Ghirapur Ęther Grid) I can see that color requirement can be painful with so low color sources.
    Notion Thief's biggest problem in the rest of the meta is it's cost - that's not a problem here. Arbiter is a fair trade for Censor, but flash and flying are incredibly relevant and the mana cost really is fairly negligible with this style of deck. It sucks when they hit their search in the top four, but it sucks when they can pay the Arbiter tax too. Almost every deck that Chalice is good against, Thief is good against. After all, 70%+ of the format plays Brainstorm. The internal synergies with the Thief are very powerful and Thief is a more versatile card G1.
    I have 19 T1 sources of every color of mana, not counting Chrome. Colors aren't really difficult to hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    4 Chrome Mox - how many times you don't have card to imprint ?
    Imprintable cards:
    1 Dack Fayden
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Notion Thief
    // Sorceries
    4 Day's Undoing
    4 Vindicate
    // Enchantments
    3 Ghirapur Ęther Grid
    20 cards so 1/3 cards, shouldn't be so bad, but how many times you imprint your all-star card just to land turn 1 Trini ?
    I used the same math for Chome and Diamond that people use when determining if Force of Will is playable with x number of blue sources. I will have the turn one rocks more often then you will have the T1 force. That said, it's probably worth testing +2 Dust Bowl -1 GQ -1 Chrome (or -1 Petal). It'll hurt your T1 consistency though. Also, this IS a stompy deck at heart. Mulligans are important, and Day's Undoing lets you be much more cavalier with them than you would with other decks. It should be noted that you can play chrome without imprinting, which often lets you empty your hand, turn on metalcraft for the opal, or get in that extra damage with Grid or Tezz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Second thing which I found trying to assamble Day's Undoying Stax - it's a problem after you reset hands, with Trini on table. Vintage stax can easy put next Shop as land and cast Mox same turn with a thread, here you don't have shops, best shot will be sol lands, which are turn to late to cast mana + thread same turn, that's why we don't have good stax in legacy.
    I play about the same amount of land that every other deck in the format does. We'll both have trouble developing our mana under a 3ball. My deck is designed to accommodate this, and generally make it even more of a pain for you than it would normally be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    At the end - find solution to Pernicous Deed it's one side apocalypse. Needles or Karmic Justice is needed.
    NicFit is the only deck that plays Deed and is generally considered a T2 deck at best. My solution is to dodge the hell out of it.
    That said, this is one of the best arguments for Revokers in the board. If Deed is a thing in your local meta, well.. honestly, I wouldn't play this deck if Deed is a big thing in your local meta. But by all means, board Revoker. I'd drop the Mages. They're probably the weakest card in the board.

    Stranglehold and Karmic Justice are both interesting cards. They've been added to the Other Cards section, along with Aribiter.

  7. #7
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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    Add Ensnaring Bridge and Trinisphere to this list. Miracles has real difficulty actually winning against this deck once Bridge resolves, and trinisphere makes it so they have a hell of a time actually stopping anything else. Spell Pierce is relatively easy to play around and Miracles gives me all the time in the world to do so. I actively encourage Miracles players to add to that time by killing Dack. Notion Thief is also a fair headache for them.
    Do you ignoring Jace, TMS ? He will win even with Bridge resolves. Deck contains 2 Bridges (most miracles runs 1 Council's Judgement MD), note that Mentor versions rise with popularity which can give them decent clock, with Trini your moxes will also not easy to cast, with Prowess on instant it's not hard to pump them in combat after decelerating attackers.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    I'd like to point out that this is basically the same game plan Sneak and Show runs against them, and even with Karakas (which is essentially a 'free' answer to their primary game plan) they are still weak enough against that deck that they want to board in several more answers to it, and even with that it's considered a mediocre matchup. Forcing a shuffle out of a Miracles player isn't hard with GQ and the LD package.
    Ignoring FoWs, Spell Pierces many times Misdirection and some Flusters as protection with 10-12 cantrips to sculpt isn't fair analysis. If your deck doesn't run CQ (cantrips) you need more more thread density/protection to win vs permission deck.

    Really make testing, it really opens eyes. If you can't find decent players near you use some Cockatrice or MTGO.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    Notion Thief's biggest problem in the rest of the meta is it's cost - that's not a problem here. Arbiter is a fair trade for Censor, but flash and flying are incredibly relevant and the mana cost really is fairly negligible with this style of deck. It sucks when they hit their search in the top four, but it sucks when they can pay the Arbiter tax too. Almost every deck that Chalice is good against, Thief is good against. After all, 70%+ of the format plays Brainstorm. The internal synergies with the Thief are very powerful and Thief is a more versatile card G1.
    I have 19 T1 sources of every color of mana, not counting Chrome. Colors aren't really difficult to hit.
    Though the biggest problem is that it comes to late (which can be connected with your argument) vs used brainstorms/open mana with removal, you cant protect it, so basically with so low creature count it will just get removal.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    I used the same math for Chome and Diamond that people use when determining if Force of Will is playable with x number of blue sources. I will have the turn one rocks more often then you will have the T1 force. That said, it's probably worth testing +2 Dust Bowl -1 GQ -1 Chrome (or -1 Petal). It'll hurt your T1 consistency though. Also, this IS a stompy deck at heart. Mulligans are important, and Day's Undoing lets you be much more cavalier with them than you would with other decks. It should be noted that you can play chrome without imprinting, which often lets you empty your hand, turn on metalcraft for the opal, or get in that extra damage with Grid or Tezz.
    Yes but then it doesn't give mana which is probably main aim to achieve. I would try Dust Bowls, or change 1 Chrome/Petal for one more Crucible of Worlds 1 is for sure too less.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    I play about the same amount of land that every other deck in the format does. We'll both have trouble developing our mana under a 3ball. My deck is designed to accommodate this, and generally make it even more of a pain for you than it would normally be.
    Many players forgot that Trnisphere doesn't resolve threads from opponent (maybe with storm exeptions), it only make them slower develop.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    NicFit is the only deck that plays Deed and is generally considered a T2 deck at best. My solution is to dodge the hell out of it.
    That said, this is one of the best arguments for Revokers in the board. If Deed is a thing in your local meta, well.. honestly, I wouldn't play this deck if Deed is a big thing in your local meta. But by all means, board Revoker. I'd drop the Mages. They're probably the weakest card in the board.

    Stranglehold and Karmic Justice are both interesting cards. They've been added to the Other Cards section, along with Aribiter.
    Don't be surprised when Shardless BUG or Jund side in Deeds. It's still most universal sweeper in BG colors.

    Make decent test, with real opponents.

  8. #8

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Do you ignoring Jace, TMS ? He will win even with Bridge resolves. Deck contains 2 Bridges (most miracles runs 1 Council's Judgement MD), note that Mentor versions rise with popularity which can give them decent clock, with Trini your moxes will also not easy to cast, with Prowess on instant it's not hard to pump them in combat after decelerating attackers.
    Ensnaring bridge is useful vs Infect. Stopping Mentor tokens isn't any harder, and that's assuming mentor even lives. Mentor miracles has a single, if any, viable wincon through Grid, and the deck is STILL slow enough that I have no problems finding and sticking one. But, yes, Day's undoing does require forethought. Blindly casting it every time you draw it will loose you the game, doubly so when Ensnaring Bridge is all that's keeping you alive. I recommend looting it with Dack, imprinting it with Chrome, or otherwise not keeping it in your hand in those situations. If you have a 3ball on board and you cast Day's undoing, they very rarely have enough mana to do anything productive, much less leathal, afterward, and your entire deck and game plan is based on exacerbating that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Ignoring FoWs, Spell Pierces many times Misdirection and some Flusters as protection with 10-12 cantrips to sculpt isn't fair analysis. If your deck doesn't run CQ (cantrips) you need more more thread density/protection to win vs permission deck.
    Planeswalkers are very easy to kill here. Vindicate, 2 flash creatures, Grid and Tezz animates all kill walkers very effectively. That's twice as many answers as anything else in the format. Actually, that's kinda my point. I play more than twice as many must-stop spells as a comparable, slower T1 gameplan successfully plays with cantrips and Force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Really make testing, it really opens eyes. If you can't find decent players near you use some Cockatrice or MTGO.
    Miracles is one of a small handful decks I DO have extensive testing with. I promise the matchup is heavily in my favor.
    Also, suggessting Cock as a good test platform makes me giggle. Have you ever actually used it? Most people who play legacy there are absolute scrubs, and those that aren't are usually testing some other off the wall brew. I need to test against T1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Many players forgot that Trnisphere doesn't resolve threads from opponent (maybe with storm exeptions), it only make them slower develop.
    No, but the entire rest of the deck does, and Trinisphere + massive mana denial DOES stop your opponent from ever attempting to resolve those threats. Maybe I should play those together? Oh, wait...


    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Don't be surprised when Shardless BUG or Jund side in Deeds. It's still most universal sweeper in BG colors.
    All the recent jund and shardless lists I've seen play Deluge or other sweepers that give them a better chance of keeping their own threats alive through it and aren't useless against Delver's Stifles. But I'll keep that in mind.

    At this point, I'm gonna ask that you actually sleeve up and play the deck before I listen to more from you. You very obviously haven't played with it, and while your ranting is occasionally constructive (Karmic Justice really is nifty, thank you for that gem), it's also annoying. I hope you have fun destroying your local miracles players when you do decide to give it a shot. It's pretty satisfying.

  9. #9
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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    At this point, I'm gonna ask that you actually sleeve up and play the deck before I listen to more from you. You very obviously haven't played with it, and while your ranting is occasionally constructive (Karmic Justice really is nifty, thank you for that gem), it's also annoying. I hope you have fun destroying your local miracles players when you do decide to give it a shot. It's pretty satisfying.
    Not enough Hatoraide to fit in one deck, ya gotta share it with the rest of us too?

  10. #10

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by jrsthethird View Post
    Not enough Hatoraide to fit in one deck, ya gotta share it with the rest of us too?
    You know what they say. Misery loves company.

    But seriously, it's really fun seeing the look on a miracles player's face when they have no control of the game. Only other time I've seen anything like it was beating Joe Lossett to death with a turn one magus of the moon in a Win and In for an SCGIQ.

  11. #11
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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    A deck that seems to lose to pithing needle/phyrexian revoker doesn't feel like a good space to be in. Otherwise it just feels like white stax/pox in that you seem to be able gain control but can't close fast enough for it to matter.

    Personally I also don't like that chrome mox seems forced to remove the few minor threats available. I play parfait most commonly so I'm not really sure what to suggest here. I play silver bullet hate with massive card advantage and a protected combo kill. That seems better then dump hand and give my opponent a new 7.
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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Also, suggessting Cock as a good test platform makes me giggle. Have you ever actually used it? Most people who play legacy there are absolute scrubs, and those that aren't are usually testing some other off the wall brew. I need to test against T1.
    Probably last BoM winner wouldn't agree with you :-). If you have good friends even far away on different continent I don't know better free platform for testing. Just don't play with randoms.

    I will test this deck in battle vs miracles and post my feeling after, maybe I'm wrong, but from my point of view you strongly reliable on Bridge in creature-based MU, which isn't best after SB in artifact theme deck.

    -----------------------

    Round 1 First game vs Sneak 1-2 (on draw)
    Game 1
    He played twice tomb, which I waste, then City, I assamble Trinisphere from petal. Then he play S&T and put Emrakul, I didnt had bridge.
    Game 2
    I cast turn 1 Meddling Mage pithing S&T, which get stay. Turn 2 I resp to his brainstorm with Notion Thief which give me game.
    Game 3
    Had problems with 3rd mana, had Petal, 2 nonartifact lands and Opal (keep hand bacause of Bridge which wasn't shown G1/G2). He played some fetchlands, then I tried Aven which get FoW he cast Sneak turn 3 with Petal and Tomb, then draw 7 from Grisel. Bridge couldn't resolve.


    Round 2 (loosing bracket always comes some weird deck) - UW Tempo with delvers, SFM, Stifles and Geist 2-1 (2-2).

    Game 1
    Loses to turn 3 Geist, my Bridge was countered, Resolved two plainswalker before it, animated land get StP, then just stifle Angel tokens kill me enough fast.

    Game 2
    I crush him with fast trinisphere, then Vindicate land, ended with Day's Undying 7v0, he concede.

    Game 3
    Crucible was enough to keep him on 2 mana, he resolved Meddling Mage naming Vindicate, then Stony Silence, which was not bad for him (worked only on Tomb Gimmervoid and waste), killed him with Aven mindcensors. With keeping on bay his creatures under Bridge.

    We also played Game 4 for testing, this time he kill me enough fast with Stony Silence (turn 2), then Geist finish.

    Round 3 Mentor Miracles with Black for Therapies, Shamans and wastelands - Terminus on SB (1-2)

    Game 1
    Quite standard, he keep hand without FoW, Turn 1 Trinisphere, with few moxes, then Aven with GQ and waste was enough to keep his multicolor manabase

    Game 2
    Trinisphere get FoWed, then my moxes get EE for 0, I kill Jace with Vindicate, he needle wasteland, and Council my Crucible, ended without fuel, refill with Day's Undying (he had SDT on table so topdecking wasn't an option), drew only Vindicate with few moxes, which was therapied out after Probe. Funny fact he never drew his mentors, I was Jaced out of the game after second EE for 0. Note

    Game 3
    This was sad game had not bad hand, but only Opal and Tomb as speed up. He had 3 wastelands, then Council my Crucible (again similar like in G2). Ended screwed on color mana with not working Opal for enough to be dead.

    That ends my tournament.


    I found that AEther is really slow, played only 9 games but this was the worst card in deck.

    MVP most games was Crucible, Trinisphere, Tezzeret and Bridges. Mox Opal and Chrome Mox was twice bad (couldn't get mana from them when I wanted).
    Creature package was surprisingly good specially Aven Mindcensor, he was good in 70% of situations 3 times on 10 opponent found what he wanted, had once problem to cast Thief missing B mana.

    If this deck wanted to fight against any tempo it needs as hell more bridges in 75 and probably More Tezzeret's. Dack was not bad but probably without any targeting spell he is just a filter.

    This deck needs some needle against EE for 0. Bad news - Stony Silence is sometimes a problem. Loam decks are a problem after SB (mostly R/G lands) repeatable wasteland with exploration/manabond is a problem.

    I would focus more on U/b/w mana base with Tezzeret's Bridges and full stax gameplan etc. AEther can be on SB as alternative wincon.

    ------------------

    That what I would change in this deck:


    1 Ancient Den
    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Ghost Quarter
    4 Glimmervoid
    2 Seat of the Synod
    1 Vault of Whispers
    4 Wasteland
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    2 Notion Thief
    3 Day's Undoing
    4 Vindicate
    3 Chrome Mox
    3 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Diamond
    2 Mox Opal
    4 Trinisphere
    3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    3 Leonin Arbiter
    //SB
    1 Academy Ruins
    2 Aura of Silence
    3 Chalice of the Void
    3 Meddling Mage
    2 Spellskite
    2 Karmic Justice
    2 Ghirapur AEther Grid


    Changed Grid to SB and only 2 vs some weenie decks, added Karmic Justic vs EE, and bump up Meddling Mage.

    MD:
    +2 Crucible
    +1 Bridge
    +1 Tezzeret
    +3 Leonin Arbiter as additional Hoser on start
    +1 Trinisphere
    +1 Synod

    - 1 Chrome Mox
    - 1 Mox Opal
    - 1 Notion Thief
    - 3 Grip
    - 1 Furnance
    - 1 Dack
    -1 Day's Undying (4 is to much, it's situational card which I want draw after you gain control).
    Last edited by Fatal; 11-28-2015 at 05:41 PM.

  13. #13

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Thanks for giving it a shot, and the matchup info.

    I have definitely noticed that you very often want to aggressively mulligan for turn one action. Playing with the deck more to get a feel for when you can and can't keep a shower hand will help a lot, but consistency has been a bit if a problem there. Dack is mostly there to help with exactly that, and yeah, he's basically just a repeatable looter. Probably the least objectively powerful card in the deck.
    Grid really shines in the delver matchups and against legends miracles. Give it a few more tries before you dismiss it completely.

    Again, thanks for the report!

  14. #14
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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    i really like the engine of the deck but i don't like the strategy. (moxes, artifacts, days undoing) Have you considered doing something else with it? like combo?

    artificer's intuition seems like a great card that would give access to

    altar of the brood
    chalice of the void
    artifact lands
    grafdigger's cage
    grindstone
    any of the spell bombs
    pithing needle
    relic of progenitus


    even if you choose not to combo that kind of toolbox is perfect for the deck because of all of the extra moxes.

    If you decide to go combo you could consider grindstone / painter or helm of awakening + SDT + Altar. Really you could even go Bomberman strategy by including Auriok Salvagers with artificer's intuition.

    Also, combo would love tezzeret the seeker as well.
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  15. #15

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Playing both Chrome Mox AND Mox Diamond in the same deck? I don't think that has ever worked or ever will work until they print colored lands in the future.

    The fundamental problem with "Answer / Solution" decks like this is that they draw the wrong answers. What if you draw your ensnaring bridge against Storm combo or if you draw your Trinisphere against Sneak and Show? What if you draw Mindcensor against a deck that doesn't search the library, or if you draw Notion Thief against a deck like Lands that doesn't draw extra cards? You have no way to filter like a blue deck (brainstorm) and you have no way to tutor for things to compensate.

    "Answer" decks don't ever really work well unless they have access to tutoring for specific answers, or if they are just highly redundant on hate - i.e. Death n Taxes plays 4 Wingmares AND 4 Thalias, and plays 4 Wasteland AND 4 Rishadan Ports. All of their hate is concentrated into mana denial. All of the hate in this deck is just a disparate collection of silver bullet answers without any filtering or tutoring to access those answers when needed. The 2 Tezzeret is simply not enough, not only due to the low count but because it can't tutor for specific non-artifact hate such as the Notion Thieves and Mindcensors that you lean on heavily in the blue matchups.

  16. #16

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    Playing both Chrome Mox AND Mox Diamond in the same deck? I don't think that has ever worked or ever will work until they print colored lands in the future.
    Wouldn't help, unfortunately. Chrome specifies non-land, non-artefact. Otherwise I'd be playing arbor and coloured artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    The fundamental problem with "Answer / Solution" decks like this is that they draw the wrong answers. What if you draw your ensnaring bridge against Storm combo or if you draw your Trinisphere against Sneak and Show? What if you draw Mindcensor against a deck that doesn't search the library, or if you draw Notion Thief against a deck like Lands that doesn't draw extra cards? You have no way to filter like a blue deck (brainstorm) and you have no way to tutor for things to compensate.
    The point of the build is to have my hate be as broadly applicable as possible. And I've mostly succeeded in doing that. My LD package is more effective than d&t's, but the rest of my gameplan is much more powerful than a collection of white bears and doesn't lose to sweepers.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    "Answer" decks don't ever really work well unless they have access to tutoring for specific answers, or if they are just highly redundant on hate - i.e. Death n Taxes plays 4 Wingmares AND 4 Thalias, and plays 4 Wasteland AND 4 Rishadan Ports. All of their hate is concentrated into mana denial. All of the hate in this deck is just a disparate collection of silver bullet answers without any filtering or tutoring to access those answers when needed. The 2 Tezzeret is simply not enough, not only due to the low count but because it can't tutor for specific non-artifact hate such as the Notion Thieves and Mindcensors that you lean on heavily in the blue matchups.
    Tezz only hitting specific pieces of hate is why I only play two. This isn't an "answers"deck; it's a hate deck. It's not trying to stop what you've already done, it's trying to stop you from doing it at all. Vindicate and ęther grid are concessions to the fact that that's incredibly hard to do and I may need to clean up the pieces that fall through. All of the hate is either good against the format as a whole (trinisphere,, vindicate; bridge and crucible to lesser degrees), or serves more than one purpose (win condition, killing other creatures, dealing with problem permanents). Tutors are a valid point, and I'll be testing transmute artifact. It's been added tip the other cards list.

    The deck is trying to play a faster Stompy game with more consistency and a broader range of good matchups.

  17. #17
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    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    The deck is trying to play a faster Stompy game with more consistency and a broader range of good matchups.
    If that's true I would expect to see a faster clock... or a clock at all. This deck is reminding me more and more of MUD minus it's tools and facing the same problem of lack of consistency while also just beating itself with its own plan.

    I guess as a short question why play this over a stompy build in the first place?
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  18. #18

    Re: [Primer] Hatoraide (Moxen Mass / NoG Mass) - Fair Magic in the most unfair ways

    Quote Originally Posted by angelbaka View Post
    Wouldn't help, unfortunately. Chrome specifies non-land, non-artefact. Otherwise I'd be playing arbor and coloured artifacts.
    The point stands - playing Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond in the same deck has never worked and never will work because you need lots of lands to make Mox Diamond work, and you need lots of non-artifact/land cards to make Chrome Mox work, and you only have 60 cards in a deck.

    You are currently playing only 20 cards MD that can pitch to Chrome Mox. And all of them are business cards - if you pitch one, that's one less threat you can play that game, and with the vast amount of mana acceleration you play, the threats will be few and far between.

    You are currently playing 19 cards MD that can pitch to Mox Diamond. Historically, successful Mox Diamond decks have played at least 24 or more lands to pitch to the Mox, because anything less than that will result in your Mox rotting in your hand or you missing your land drops to pitch things to your mox.

    The point of the build is to have my hate be as broadly applicable as possible. And I've mostly succeeded in doing that. My LD package is more effective than d&t's, but the rest of my gameplan is much more powerful than a collection of white bears and doesn't lose to sweepers.
    But if you read my statement, you'd realize that "hate" simply isn't broadly applicable. The only "hate" that is broadly applicable are counterspells, in that they are generic answers to most threats, but even then, recent counterspells have been alot more conditional than in the past.

    Draw a Notion Thief against Lands, or against RUG/BUG Delver, or against MUD, or against Death n Taxes. It's a 3/1 guy with flash for 4 mana. Against Delver decks you hope you can cast him before they play one of their FOUR Brainstorms. That's it, otherwise he's a 3/1 for 4 mana.
    Draw an Ensnaring Bridge against Miracles, or Storm. It's a complete blank.

    Tezz only hitting specific pieces of hate is why I only play two. This isn't an "answers"deck; it's a hate deck. It's not trying to stop what you've already done, it's trying to stop you from doing it at all. Vindicate and ęther grid are concessions to the fact that that's incredibly hard to do and I may need to clean up the pieces that fall through. All of the hate is either good against the format as a whole (trinisphere,, vindicate; bridge and crucible to lesser degrees), or serves more than one purpose (win condition, killing other creatures, dealing with problem permanents). Tutors are a valid point, and I'll be testing transmute artifact. It's been added tip the other cards list.

    The deck is trying to play a faster Stompy game with more consistency and a broader range of good matchups.
    Hate = Answers. That's the definition of hate in Magic terminology. You're hating on strategies by answering their powerful engines with a specific targeted counter-punch for each engine. Playing things like Chalice of the Void is no different from playing a counterspell - they are both answers to threats. Chalice/Trinisphere are simply proactive whereas a Counterspell is reactive. Both proactive and reactive answers are still answers.

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