Page 1 of 12 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 230

Thread: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

  1. #1
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    [Primer/Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)



    Legacy Countersliver

    "Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.

    A Brief History of Countersliver (or "Back in the Day...")
    In 1999, Chris Senhouse and his team shook up the Extended format by garnering several top 8 PTQ berths with their “House of Slivers” creation, which was basically a port of the well-known Type 2 Countersliver deck. Employing the ever-potent trio of Crystalline, Muscle and Winged Sliver as his primary win condition, Senhouse filled out the rest of the deck with counterspells, card-drawers and utility spells. The deck was well-equipped to handle the powerhouse Extended decks of the time, with Crystalline/Worship lock to frustrate Sligh, countermagic to thwart High Tide combo, and countermagic + disenchants to combat Necropotence decks. While Senhouse's initial version ran just three colors (UWG), the deck eventually evolved (with the help of other innovators) into a 4-color variant with black for Hibernation Sliver, Duress and most importantly, the overpowered (and now banned) Demonic Consultation. Countersliver continued to have good success until mid-2000, at which point it fell out of favor due to shifts in the Extended metagame. Once the Revised dual lands rotated out of Extended in 2002, the Countersliver archetype rotated out with them.

    Put out to pasture in the Legacy format, Countersliver languished in obscurity for several years, barely played, but not quite forgotten. Around 2006, it reemerged as "MeatHooks," a moniker derived from the hook-like appearance of sliver appendages. Though it was never considered a Tier 1 power, it managed to gain some traction in the metagame for a while. Employing Plated Sliver alongside the usual cadre of Crystalline/Muscle/Winged, the deck's primary appeal was that it was very strong against Goblins, which was considered the strongest deck in the format at the time. However, metagames evolve, and it wasn't long before Goblins began to fade from power. As Goblins receded from prominence, Countersliver began to lose relevance. At the center of this was WotC's commitment to printing increasingly powerful creatures, such as Tarmogoyf. As individual creatures became stronger and more efficient, the hive strategy of slivers became less and less enticing. However, WotC wasn't done with slivers, and with M14 and M15 came a batch of new sliver cards for us to play with. M14 was particularly bountiful, providing highly useful new slivers in the form of Galerider, Predatory, Striking, and Syphon. Then a few years later came the Modern Horizons set to gift us with Cloudshredder Sliver and Unsettled Mariner. Combined with the printing of Cavern of Souls, Sliver Hive, and Unclaimed Territory to bolster a traditionally fragile manabase, there may now be enough tools to breathe life back into this dormant archetype.


    Building Countersliver
    Previous versions of Legacy Countersliver were typically built to operate on 3 colors (UWG) or 4 colors (UWGB). The manabase consisted largely of dual lands and fetches, with 1 or 2 basics and some mutavaults. Fill out the deck with the obvious core slivers, as well as aether vials, brainstorms, forces, dazes, and plows, and you had yourself a Countersliver deck.

    More recently, with the printing of a variety of new rainbow lands and efficient slivers, the deck has evolved into a full-fledged 5-color deck that eschews cantrips, plows, and non-Force counterspells in favor of cramming in as many good slivers as possible. Most notable has been the repeated success of Daniel Nunes with lists very much like the following:

    A modern update of the more traditional Countersliver build would look something like the one below. What makes it "traditional" is the complete lack of red, a high blue count, and the barebones fetch/dual/basic engine facilitating the inclusion of Brainstorm. The manabase is surprisingly robust. Any island + rainbow land casts every 2cc spell in the deck. With full sets of dazes and forces, this list packs a good amount of disruption.

    And here is a UWGR variant that forgoes Hibernation Sliver for Cloudshredder Sliver.

    And finally, if money is tight, you can start with the following list and work your way up to the Nunes "All-In" list.



    The Manabase
    You want to run 20 lands, give or take. Start with 4x Cavern of Souls, 0-2x Karakas, 0-4x Mutavault/Wasteland. For the rest of it, you have two choices: 1) fill up with more rainbow lands, or 2) cram in a fetch/dual engine so you can run Brainstorm. Look to the above lists for examples of both strategies.

    The order of preference for rainbow lands is Cavern of Souls >>> Unclaimed Territory > Sliver Hive > Ancient Ziggurat. Why Unclaimed Territory over Sliver Hive? Because Unclaimed Territory can name "Humans" for your hatebears out of the sideboard, and because you will *never* use Sliver Hive's tertiary ability in competitive Legacy play.

    As for Mutavault vs Wasteland, it's a matter of debate. Mutavault is a natural fit, but Wasteland is also good for all the reasons you'd expect Wasteland to be good. One observation I'll make is that Unsettled Mariner + Wasteland = good synergy. In any case, pick one or the other and run with it.


    Maindeck Choices
    Aether Vial: Put your slivers into play uncounterably and play combat tricks on your opponent. Automatic 4-of.

    Crystalline Sliver: Still the MVP. Listen to your opponent groan as it comes into play. Automatic 4-of.

    Hibernation Sliver: Provides resilience to Terminus and Wrath effects, as well as acting as sort of a poor man’s Crystalline. Also useful for dealing with Jitte, Deathtouch, Griselbrand, and other annoyances.

    Unsettled Mariner: This changeling gladly joins your hive and provides a bit of maindeck disruption against targeted removal, burn, tendrils of agony, and the like.

    Sinew Sliver/Muscle Sliver/Predatory Sliver: Lordy lordy, them slivers are beefy! Make room for at least 8.

    Cloudshredder Sliver: A 2-drop that gives your hive flying AND haste? Yes, please.

    Galerider Sliver: Flying breaks stalemates and delivers the coup de grace. Automatic 4-of.

    Striking Sliver: A nice one-drop that gives your hive first strike. Don’t knock it.

    Sidewinder Sliver/Plated Sliver: More one-drops to round out the curve. Both are solid, if not spectacular. Which one is preferred depends on your metagame.

    Force of Will: Puts the "counter" in countersliver.

    Brainstorm: Only viable if you're playing a fetch/dual manabase to support it. In fact, if you're playing fetches and duals but not Brainstorm, then what are you doing?

    Ponder: If Brainstorm is the best cantrip, this is easily the second best one. In some situations, it's actually better, as it allows you to potentially look at 4 fresh cards when searching for the thing you need.

    Swords to Plowshares: Again, only viable if you're playing fetches and duals. This card would be a secondary reason to do so. You probably don't want to play any more than 2 or 3 plows, and 0 is perfectly acceptable.

    Daze: In years gone by, this card was a staple in the deck. Its purpose was to help stick turn 1 aether vial or turn 2 crystalline sliver, and to buy you an extra turn against combo decks. It can still serve that purpose. However, you need to actually be playing islands for it to work. I wouldn't advise it in builds that run fewer than 8 islands or ways to fetch islands.


    FAQ
    Q: Should I keep this 1-land hand?
    A: A tricky question. If you have a vial and can play it, then probably yes. Otherwise, it depends. Sometimes you can get by with making one-drops for a couple of turns until you draw out of it. Sometimes you get wastelanded to death or take too long to find another land. Them's the breaks.

    Q: Merfolk does is better.
    A: That isn't a question. I can tell because there isn't a question mark at the end. But, yeah, okay, maybe. What of it?

    Q: What happens if I attack with flanking, and my opponent blocks with Ice-Fang Coatl or Baleful Strix?
    A: The deathtouch creature dies before it can deliver damage. Your creature survives, but is still blocked.

    Q: Does flanking stack?
    A: Yes.

    Q: Does Unsettled Mariner's effect apply to cards that say "without paying its mana cost?"
    A: Yes.

    Q: Does Unsettled Mariner's effect apply to spells that "can't be countered?"
    A: Yes, but they can safely ignore the effect.

    Q: What about this really awesome sliver that costs 4 or 5 mana?
    A: It's too difficult to cast. Even 3cc slivers are mostly unplayable.

    Q: Slivers are the coolest!
    A: Again, not a question. But yes, yes they are.


    Tournament History & Proven Lists
    mtgtop8.com <-- Select Legacy format and search for decks with maindeck Crystalline Sliver
    hareruyamtg.com


    Credits
    Chris Lennon (Volt)
    James Hammer (Pinder)
    Brian Crownhart (Maverick676)
    John Thomas (xsockmonkeyx)
    Gordy Goetz (Tosh)
    Sam Blau (Kronicler)
    and the rest of Team InfoNinja.

    Also, special thanks to Kicks_422, who coined 'MeatHooks' as an alternate deck name for Countersliver.


    References & Additional Reading
    Who's the Beatdown?
    The Secret Life of Slivers
    A Sliver Story
    Sliver Me Timbers
    Sliver Anatomy
    Prisoner of the Skep; or, How I Encountered the Slivers—and Lived to Tell the Tale!
    Tales from the Crypt Sliver
    Take the Sliver Quiz!
    Sliver Pâté
    This Hive is No Mos Eisley
    A Sliver of a Chance
    A Sliver of Direction
    Slivers
    Deck of the Day: Modern Slivers
    Treasure Cruisin' Pauper Slivers
    Modern Slivers with Modern Horizons
    Slivers Through History
    10 Strongest Cards for a Sliver Commander Deck
    Last edited by Volt; 04-26-2021 at 12:42 AM. Reason: new deck lists; fixed some broken links and added new articles
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  2. #2
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    How to Sideboard
    Much of your sideboard will be devoted to combo. In matchups where Force of Will is good, you want to increase your blue count after sideboard, or at the very least don't reduce it. Avoid siding out any of your "lords," i.e. Sinew/Predatory/Muscle. Most of the time, you'll be siding out things like Sidewinder, Striking, and Cloudshredder. Against the unfair decks, I tend to side out Cloudshredders first, as the one-drops smooth out your mana curve and generally do more for your clock.


    Matchups
    Under construction. If you want to help out with this endeavor, let me know in the replies.

    Generally, slivers do well against most “fair” decks, and so-so to poor against “unfair” decks.

    RUG Delver: positive/favorable
    Countersliver is about a 60/40 favorite here, give or take. If your opponent opens with turn 1 Delver, strongly consider Forcing it, especially if you're on the draw or have a slow start. Cavern of Souls is a juicy Wasteland target for your opponent, so keep that first Cavern in your hand until you're going to use it. If you're also playing Wasteland, you generally want to try to keep your opponent off red. However, I've found that using your first turn to waste your opponent's land is usually a losing play, as they have probably either cantripped or summoned a creature. If they used their first turn to play a volcanic island and bolt you, then go ahead and waste it, because they probably kept a subpar hand and their big plan is to play Dreadhorde Arcanist or Tarmogoyf next turn. Otherwise, spending your first turn wasting their land is likely just going to solidify their lead. Better to develop your board instead.

    Burn: negative/unfavorable
    This is a bad matchup, something like 70/30 against you, unless you're running maindeck Chalices. It's made worse by the fact that you probably don't have much help in your sideboard. Your best bet is to slow them down with Mariners, apply quick beats, and Force whatever you can along the way. Try to minimize your exposure to Price of Progress by fetching basics if you have them, and not playing non-basics that you don't need. If you're running Wasteland, play them out and keep them untapped so you can waste your own lands in response to Price of Progress.
    Last edited by Volt; 12-23-2020 at 11:51 PM.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  3. #3
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2012
    Location

    Vienna, Austria
    Posts

    17

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Welcome in the new thread, fellow Hivelords!
    Fitting for the new start, I fiel like I've never had this much fun before while playing Magic ^^

    This weekend is Nebraska's War in Italy, one of the biggest European Tournament weekends, and I got 10th out of 103 in the Trial for the Legacy Main Event tomorrow :D

    The List I ran was - as I suggested - a Merfolk-like take on Slivers. I really loved it <3

    Creatures (28):
    4 Galerider Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    2 Muscle Sliver
    2 Syphon Sliver
    1 Winged Sliver
    3 Phantasmal Image

    Spells (11):
    4 Force of Will
    4 AEther Vial
    3 Chalice of the Void

    Lands (21):
    4 Mutavault
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Sliver Hive
    3 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Island

    Sideboard (15):
    2 Harmonic Sliver
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Submerge
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Negate
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Chalice of the Void
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Containment Priest

    The Tournament was 7 rounds and then Top 8, which I obviously couldn't participate in.

    Round 1 against Nicholas with Aggro Loam: 2-1
    Game 1 I mulled to six and kept a mediocre Hand. After he started strong I conceded with him only seeing a Misty. Game 2 I simply spammed the board protected by Crystalline. Game 3 was close - after he discarded Crystalline Turn 1 and followed up with a turn 2 Liliana, I crawled back on Top of 2 Vial, a Hibernation and a Predatory, soon to be followed by a RiP and a Chalice on 2 (of which both didn't survive for long), staring at a Knight with Maze of Ith and no Lands to tutor up Depths for the Combo kill. When I finally drew more Slivers, I could overwhelm him.

    Round 2 against Frederico with Grixis Delver: 2-0
    Both very uninteractive Games. He won the Die roll, started both Games with T1 Deathrite into T2 Pyromancer, after which he dazed all my Slivers despite them being uncounterable through Cavern, just to get Tokens.

    Round 3 against Andrea with Miracles: 2-0
    Lost the Die roll again, oh well. He forced my Turn 1 Vial and didn't play anything else for the rest of the Game die to me slamming a Chalice on 1 Turn 2, except for a last effort Jace to bounce a Sliver. Didn't even buy him a turn. Game 2 it was Turn 2 Crystalline into Turn 3 Hibernation backed up by Lords, and I was able to Force a Terminus. These Games were over really quick.

    Round 4 against *didn't note the name* with Sneak & Show: 2-1
    Really nice guy, we had a lot of fun. I lost the Die roll again, and died to a Turn 2 Griselbrand. Game 2 I assembled a fast clock, and when he finally got a Griselbrand in, I copied it with Image from a Vial, he had to chumpblock, and I drew into a lot of cards, killing him. Game 3 was similar, only with a Containment Priest and a few Pyroclasms getting involved in the fun, making this Game 3 an extremely close one.

    Round 5 against Lukas with Storm: 0-2
    This guy ended up winning the Tournament. I finally won the Die Roll, but had to mull to 5 both Games into hands with no interaction. Game 2 I also made a silly misplay by countering the wrong Spell :/

    Round 6 against Lorenzo with Merfolk: 1-2
    Yeah, it really hurt to get pushed out of the Top 8 by the bigger brother. This Matchup feels like one of those that depends strongly on who wins the Die roll - which I lost.

    Round 7 against Luca with Storm: 2-1
    Lost Game 1, built a strong counterwall Game 2, and was really lucky Game 3 that he fizzled under a Chalice @0, while he had a Xanthid Swarm to blank my Countermagic.

    I was really impressed by the Manabase, never had any problems casting my Slivers. What was a Problem, on the other Side, was keeping UU open to double counter against Storm or Sneak Show. Because of that I'll try replacing the Negates in my board with Meddling Mages - especially against Storm I can put one Cavern on Human, easing her Manacost a bit. Creatures are easier to cast than Instants, with all those Caverns ;)
    The rest of my board seems fine to me.
    Syphon Sliver never did anything meaningful the whole Day, and I got suggestions to replace it with Darkheart Sliver, because this one should be faster. Currently, Syphon's staring, but Darkheart might at least be worth some consideration.

    Have fun Slivering :P

  4. #4
    Member
    Chronatog's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2015
    Location

    Berkeley, CA
    Posts

    82

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    Legacy Countersliver
    "Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
    Great prime on Slivers! Thanks a lot for refreshing and summarizing information on the deck. Like this new illustration of Crystalline Sliver, by the way :).

    Would like to share a few thoughts:
    1. Mutavault will not be able to block Progenitus as Progenitus has protection from everything.
    2. Winged Sliver still can be a good choice because of its mana cost - 2cmc. In case of using Chalice of the Void (most likely with one counter) and having no Cavern of Souls in play, we won't be able to cast Galerider Sliver. And in most cases our Aether Vial will be set for two. So we would be able to cast or sneak into play Winged Sliver much easier and it can be a great surprise at the end of Declare Attackers Step.
    3. Perhaps, it makes sense to add this link http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Slivers to help unfamiliar with the Rath block players understand the history of Slivers. Just for gameplay fun :).
    ---
    Carpe Diem

  5. #5
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Welcome to the new digs, guys! Make yourselves at home.

    Thanks, Chronatog, for catching my error regarding Mutavault and Progenitus. I will update the primer.

    I have some tournament results to report, myself. I went to my local Saturday night Legacy tournament at Time Vault, in downtown Portland, OR. Kind of a light crowd tonight, only 11 players, but they were all pretty solid, with pretty solid decks. This place basically is the Portland Legacy metagame, as far as I can tell. I decided to give ol' Chalice Slivers a go. Here's the list I ran:

    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    4 Galerider Sliver
    4 Muscle Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    3 Syphon Sliver

    4 AEther Vial
    4 Force of Will
    3 Chalice of the Void

    4 Mutavault
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Sliver Hive
    2 Ancient Ziggurat
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Island
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea

    SB:
    3 Containment Priest
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Harmonic Sliver
    3 Pithing Needle
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Submerge
    1 Vapor Snag

    The sideboard wasn't ideal. I threw it together at the last second. Anyway, on to the games.

    Round 1 vs Sneak and Show.
    G1: I don't know what he's playing. He mulls to 5, and I think "yay!" He casts Show and Tell on turn 2. I don't have Force. He drops Emrakul into play. There's no way I can deal with that, so I scoop.
    G2: His hand is slower this time. He does eventually cast Show and Tell again, dropping Emrakul into play again. However, he's at 10 life, and I'm able to swing with my sliver team and punch through exactly 10 damage.
    G3: I get quick sliver beats. Around turn 4 or so, he taps out to play Sneak Attack. It resolves. On my turn, I play Pithing Needle. Has has the force. Damn. I swing with my team, bringing him down to 1 life, and pass the turn. On his turn, he sneaks Emrakul in to play and swings, bringing me down to 4 life and wiping my entire board. I have an Aether Vial in hand, but no land. I top-deck a land and play Aether Vial. He draws nothing for the next few turns, until I vial in a Crystalline and kill him with it. Whew!

    Never saw Chalice, but 1-0

    Round 2 vs UR Splinter Twin combo
    So, um, yeah, he was playing an updated version of the Splinter Twin deck from Modern. I lost to it 2-0. Kind of embarrassing. Moving on...

    Never saw Chalice, now 1-1

    Round 3 vs Tin Fins
    G1: On the first turn, he plays Mox Diamond, Probes me, then therapies the Force out of my hand, then dark rituals Liliana into play. A couple turns later, I scoop.
    G2: I didn't do anything special. His deck just kinda shit on itself, and I won.
    G3: I land Containment Priest on T2 and ride it to victory.

    Again, no Chalice. Zero Chalices in 3 matches, but I'm 2-1.

    Round 4 vs Burn
    G1: I land turn 1 Aether Vial, turn 2 Chalice (about friggin time!) and coast to victory.
    G2: He Smashes my early Aether Vial, then lands a Sulfuric Vortex the turn before Syphon Sliver was going to hit the board. I get him down to 2 life, but he burns me out.
    G3: This looked bad. I mulled to 6 and kept a 1-land hand with Aether Vial. It stuck for 1 turn before he blew it up with an Ingot Chewer. I had 1 land and a Galerider in play, but Crystalline and lots of muscle in hand. I needed to topdeck a land NOW. Luckily, I did. Crystalline hit the board, followed by Sinew, Sinew, and I outraced him.

    And that was it. I finished 3-1.

    Comments: I saw one Chalice in 11 games, but it was amazing in that one game. Syphon Sliver almost mattered in one game, but otherwise was a no-show as well. I've really liked it in my on-line playtesting, but it was a non-factor tonight. I was pretty happy with the manabase. I upped the land count to 22, and included a couple of Ancient Ziggurats. The Ziggurats don't help with casting Chalice, obviously, but otherwise work pretty well. They're actually the best lands for casting hate-bears in games 2-3.

    Kind of a weird night as far as my draws, but a pretty decent result. Way too small a sample to make any sort of determination as to whether Chalice > Brainstorm in this deck.

    ED: Nice job on your tournament result, Khamul!
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  6. #6
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Paris, France
    Posts

    486

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Just to chime in, here is my latest build

    1 Ancient Ziggurat
    2 Horizon Canopy
    2 Mana Confluence
    2 Reflecting Pool
    2 Tundra
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Mutavault
    4 Sliver Hive

    1 Winged Sliver
    2 Muscle Sliver
    2 Syphon Sliver
    3 Phantasmal Image
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Galerider Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver

    3 Chalice of the Void
    4 Æther Vial

    4 Force of Will

    SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
    SB: 2 Echoing Truth
    SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
    SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 2 Meddling Mage
    SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
    SB: 2 Containment Priest


    I still don't know whether the mana base with fetch+blue dual lands is better than the one I use:

    - You might get flooded a bit more with my mana base (but I believe that the odds of drawing a business card instead of another land when it matters is after fetch n°3 or 4) but you will be able to fully use Mutavault (more likely to at least), every turn.
    - You are stifle proof with mine
    - I dunno what mana base is best for playing a hatebear oriented sideboard.

    Keep rocking guys !

  7. #7
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    I can tell you that I've tried Reflecting Pool before, with very mixed results. I suspect you'll find them unsatisfactory over the long haul. And pain lands? Man, I dunno. Good luck, though.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  8. #8
    Global Moderator
    mistercakes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Location

    Copenhagen
    Posts

    2,274

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    why not cut 1 pool, 1 zigg and play 2 more confluence? is the life that important in this kind of deck outside of the burn matchup?
    -rob

  9. #9
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Paris, France
    Posts

    486

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    why not cut 1 pool, 1 zigg and play 2 more confluence? is the life that important in this kind of deck outside of the burn matchup?
    As a matter of fact, yes.
    Hibernation Sliver is no joke and you end up using a lot its ability.

    @ Void:

    The 2 reflection pool are outstanding right now (I think 2 might actually be the best number to not be screwed):
    - you have very little odds to open a starting hand with the 2 of them and with so many rainbow lands your chances to be screwed by a wasteland are also pretty low.
    - as a matter of fact RP are rarely "wastelanded", so any rainbow land draw put you right back in the game.

  10. #10
    Global Moderator
    mistercakes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Location

    Copenhagen
    Posts

    2,274

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    As a matter of fact, yes.
    Hibernation Sliver is no joke and you end up using a lot its ability.

    @ Void:

    The 2 reflection pool are outstanding right now (I think 2 might actually be the best number to not be screwed):
    - you have very little odds to open a starting hand with the 2 of them and with so many rainbow lands your chances to be screwed by a wasteland are also pretty low.
    - as a matter of fact RP are rarely "wastelanded", so any rainbow land draw put you right back in the game.
    forgot about hibernation, good point.

    drawing 2 reflecting pools shouldn't be the only concern. drawing reflecting pool + mutavault can also limit you, there will be games when you only draw 3 lands, and if the only color producing land is wastelanded, that would be a bad way to lose.
    -rob

  11. #11
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?

    The main thing to figure out at this point seems to be exactly how to fill out the rest of the manabase, once you get past 4 Mutavault, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Sliver Hive. Ziggurats are pretty good, except you can't use them to cast Aether Vial or Chalice. I'm running 2 at the moment, but looking for better options. I doubt pain-lands are the way to go, but maybe it's the best of a bunch of less-than-ideal options.

    Also, I'd like to suggest that 22 might be the correct number of lands to be running, given our complicated color demands, lack of cantrips, and the amount of Wastelands in the format.

    I've updated the primer to include some discussion of Brainstorm vs Chalice.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  12. #12
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Paris, France
    Posts

    486

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?

    The main thing to figure out at this point seems to be exactly how to fill out the rest of the manabase, once you get past 4 Mutavault, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Sliver Hive. Ziggurats are pretty good, except you can't use them to cast Aether Vial or Chalice. I'm running 2 at the moment, but looking for better options. I doubt pain-lands are the way to go, but maybe it's the best of a bunch of less-than-ideal options.

    Also, I'd like to suggest that 22 might be the correct number of lands to be running, given our complicated color demands, lack of cantrips, and the amount of Wastelands in the format.

    I've updated the primer to include some discussion of Brainstorm vs Chalice.
    1) I'm running the 4th Chalice in the Board (instead of my lone Thalia). I don't know what to cut MD to play the 4th and I'm not sure the deck needs that kind of commitment.

    2) Ziggurat does not tap for Mutavault (as well). And this is rather annoying (this explains why I play only one).

    3) Pain lands are pain lands. I lost between 2 and 3 lifes on average using them. The earlier you get them the more they will hurt you (but fixing color is key). With your manabase, I would try -1 Ziggurat +1 Pain land/Undiscovered. It will ease casting chalice T2 (and echoing post board). I believe we can sustain no more than 2 pain lands.

    4) Playing a blue dual lands + fetch manabase might be the best choice in a vacuum but this has to be tested:
    - against stifle decks
    - against merfolk
    - against bloodmoon decks
    - against burn
    - against the meta

    I feel the key for Slivers to be T2 /1,5 lives within the manabase configuration; if we don't resolve a slivo per turn in the very first turns, we are doomed.

    We could proceed like that to determine the best manabase:

    What is mandatory to be cast ?

    T1= Vial / Galerider
    T2= Chalice / Hibernation / Crystalline (lords might not be mandatory here)

    Etc...


    5) I got flooded a bit last week-end playing my former 21 lands build (-2 horizon canopy +1 Trop +1 undiscovered paradise). So definitely a 22 lands config seems to be a "tad" much. To be explored anyway with 4).

  13. #13
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    I actually upped my Brainstorm build to 21 lands a while ago, and it never felt like too many. I figured if I'm cutting Brainstorms for Chalices, I really oughta add another land. But it's basically impossible to tell the difference one land makes. You can get mana-flooded running 20 lands, and mana-screwed running 21 lands. There's a lot of statistical noise in the short term. You have to play zillions of games to get a feel for what's right. Anyway, I'm encouraged by the progress we're making.

    ED: Let's discuss sideboarding strategy, particularly in regards to Chalice. When is it appropriate to side them out?
    Last edited by Volt; 12-07-2015 at 03:36 PM.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  14. #14

  15. #15
    Member
    Chronatog's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2015
    Location

    Berkeley, CA
    Posts

    82

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?
    I think 3 CoV in MD and 1 in SB is a good combination. My logic is simple - mana base is an issue and it is important to resolve Vial early in the game (turn one, ideally); and many decks play around CoV anyway so I wouldn't hold to it as a lifesaver.

    I'm still assembling my Slivers deck, so will be able to test it later. So please take my commentary as a theoretical exercise based on practical application in Merfolks.
    ---
    Carpe Diem

  16. #16
    Member
    Chronatog's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2015
    Location

    Berkeley, CA
    Posts

    82

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    I actually upped my Brainstorm build to 21 lands a while ago, and it never felt like too many. I figured if I'm cutting Brainstorms for Chalices, I really oughta add another land. But it's basically impossible to tell the difference one land makes. You can get mana-flooded running 20 lands, and mana-screwed running 21 lands. There's a lot of statistical noise in the short term. You have to play zillions of games to get a feel for what's right. Anyway, I'm encouraged by the progress we're making.
    Perhaps, if Braninstorm does not work well with CoV, we can try Impulse?

    But again, if we cannot win without CoV and it is so critical to have it, perhaps we need to adjust the entire strategy?
    ---
    Carpe Diem

  17. #17
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Impulse used to see play in Countersliver, actually, back before the deck graduated to Legacy. This will be giving away my old age, but I used to play Countersliver back when it was a Standard (or Type II, as we called it back then) deck. Also, Wall of Blossoms got played in that deck, so... Yeah.

    I don't think we "need" Chalice to win, at least not all the time. I mean, just look at my tournament report a few posts up. I drew it once in eleven games, which is kind of freakish, and still went 3-1 in matches. But, I mean, Chalice for 1 is such a goddamn beating against a lot of decks, especially in game 1 when they typically don't have an answer for it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind playing 3 and not 4. I mean, do we care that duplicates may be dead? As long as we resolve one, we should be favored. Delver decks, for example, just roll over and die if you stick a turn 2 Chalice. Then there's Elves, Burn, storm combo, etc. And even against decks where it's not so great, do we really think having that 4th Chalice in the main is going to be the difference between winning or losing game 1? I understand that 3 seems to be the accepted number for Merfolk decks (right?) but I'm not sure how that was arrived at.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  18. #18
    Bear Cub &gt; Tarmogoyf

    Join Date

    Jul 2007
    Posts

    775

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Might be time to update my sig here. I like to think my salvation sig is much more helpful, because it includes links like this:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=892927662

    I apologize if comparisons to other decks are getting old, but I feel like I should make them as long as they're relevant.

    3 Chalices main: the reason why Merfolk tends to run 3 main is because it also runs generic answer/threats in the form of Echoing Truth, Clique, Jitte, and Image. Running a fourth Chalice (1) increases the chance of opening on a pair (when you can't cast any T1) and (2) reduces the number of these arguably more generic cards that can be run (i.e. my sig). Do you really need the full playset in the main when you never need to see one one turn 1? I'd say no.

    Search/sift: Merfolk has Adept and Clique to draw and replace cards. Compared to us, I'd say they're slightly more redundant (the lords, Nemeses, Images, and Cliques all provide evasive beats, the Adept will often draw into evasive beats). As a counterpoint, we have beats, evasion, protection, but they're less redundant because they only come one at a time. In other words, we might have an ideal set of 4 creatures that's quite powerful, but most random selections of 4 creatures from Merfolk will be a pain. If we're to increase the consistency of our threat package, we may need to add some search/sift to ensure we can field the correct assortment of slivers.

    Second comparison would be to Death and Taxes, where all recent innovation has pointed towards splashing, and the primary reason why is for library manipulation.

    And lastly, it confuses me that Sylvan Library doesn't get any love here. I would play 2 Sylvan Library before even considering the first Impulse assuming we're on a fetchland manabase.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  19. #19
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Actually, I'd be willing to consider Sylvan Library, but you should realize our manabase isn't particularly good for casting colored non-creature spells. Especially non-blue spells. Impulse would be easier to cast, at least, but I don't think it's worth seriously considering.

    Quick note on Merfolk and D&T, since you brought them up. My playtesting suggests we have 50/50 or better matchups vs both. Doesn't necessarily mean we have a "better" deck vs the overall metagame, but just thought I'd point that out.

    I seem to be on the wrong/unpopular side of the Chalice debate, so I'll let it go. And by that I mean I'll try running 4, until enlightenment comes to me.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  20. #20
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Paris, France
    Posts

    486

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    I seem to be on the wrong/unpopular side of the Chalice debate, so I'll let it go. And by that I mean I'll try running 4, until enlightenment comes to me.
    Your list is running 3 !

    Chalice is there because with FOW we have 7 cards that matter against fast combo G1 (which could be seen as "enough" protection for a G1 or at least not completely naked should you face a nasty T1/T2 combo deck).
    Against fair decks chalice is just a mean to slow down the opponent's game's pace (At least enough for us to be able to build a lethal board).
    It can also be seen as virtual cards' advantage in a deck where we don't pack any draw spells.

    The main issue with Slivers is that we are (like Merfolk) a slow aggro deck. It takes time to build a board.
    Blanking on average 2 cards in an opponent's hand is virtually 2 cards advantage / 2 more turns to kill your opponent.

    If you take a sample hand of Slivers, you don't get to the lethal point until T6 /T7. Chalice gives us at least 2 more turns (and straight kill our opponent sometimes; that's what you get for playing unfair, niark)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)