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Thread: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

  1. #201

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Nobody saw this list?

    http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17133&f=LE

    Any comments on the Sliver Legion? Don't know if it's good. Funny that he replaced the brainstorms by 3 STP + Harmonic Sliver. I can understand it, more than once, the brainstorm didn't really help me or just locked me.

  2. #202

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Sliver legion is a quite good 7/7 creature with coat of arms effect!!!! but I think it's just for fun, I wouldn't include it cause it's extremely difficult to be casted. Yeah, you have caverns and plenty of duals but I prefer keeping my lands untapped to be able to cast a fow to protect my slivers...

  3. #203
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Legion looks like a spicy secret tech here, rarely castable and rarely useful. Long game? a vial to blow to 5? 1 open mana of each color? In need of a blue card to pitch to fow? well, go on and play legion...

    The manabase of this list looks fine tho!
    Still not a fan of the 12 lord (+legion lol) package
    STP why not? but i would go for cantrips instead, even if sometimes it can indeed lock yourself
    I play slivers on untap.in as usrdiane . Hit me up!

  4. #204
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Sliver Legion is interesting, I suppose; it seems like you would never actually cast it, but pushing Aether Vial up to 5 counters to sneak one in to break a board stall might be good.

    Seems a little win-more, though - I'm not really sure it's worth the room. Plus if I was going for one of the 5c sliver lords, I would go for Sliver Queen - pumping out additional dudes seems preferable to pumping existing ones. Legion requires you to have a board presence already, but Queen gives you one.
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  5. #205

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by kirbysdl View Post
    Speaking of Red, Hunter Sliver and Striking Sliver is a wonderful combo. You can easily kill utility creatures like SFM, DRS, Wirewood Symbiote, etc. I might slightly prefer Hunter over Venom, as you can then use your army as removal. Alternately, take out the single Winged and a Striking to run both Venom and Hunter, as any combination of Venom+Hunter+Striking removes much of the need for evasion.
    You can also play Quilled Sliver which combo's nicely with venom sliver as well and sentinel sliver if you want to get cute, but ultimately creatures aren't what this deck has problems with.

    The main problems that this deck has is dealing with Combo, IE S&S, ANT/TES, Lands / Turbo Depths. To fight this, I think an "almost all-in-slivers" deck is required, which can streamline the manabase as spells aren't being used. I want to try out a new mana base that is more akin to goblins / D&T, something like:

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadon Port
    4 Aether Vial

    4 force of will
    32 slivers (or 30 + 2 phantasmal images, which on hind site might be hard to cast with this mana base).

    Unfortunately we have to cut mutavault to make this work, and even though i love that card (its won me many many many many games), I think the added disruption will prove to be helpful.

    I think this will help to slow down the other decks while allowing ours to push through. Maybe some Thorn of amethyst in the side would be helpful as well against the other combo decks, With this mana base, thorn is preferred over Thalia although it won't work with vial (and will likely be hit G2 and G3 with incidental hate). Damping sphere might also just be the additional hate we needed to fight off combo but thorn might just be better (or run both). It also happens to shut slow down the lands from S&S if we can land it in time.

  6. #206

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by mambosong View Post
    You can also play Quilled Sliver which combo's nicely with venom sliver as well and sentinel sliver if you want to get cute, but ultimately creatures aren't what this deck has problems with.

    The main problems that this deck has is dealing with Combo, IE S&S, ANT/TES, Lands / Turbo Depths. To fight this, I think an "almost all-in-slivers" deck is required, which can streamline the manabase as spells aren't being used. I want to try out a new mana base that is more akin to goblins / D&T, something like:

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadon Port
    4 Aether Vial

    4 force of will
    32 slivers (or 30 + 2 phantasmal images, which on hind site might be hard to cast with this mana base).

    Unfortunately we have to cut mutavault to make this work, and even though i love that card (its won me many many many many games), I think the added disruption will prove to be helpful.

    I think this will help to slow down the other decks while allowing ours to push through. Maybe some Thorn of amethyst in the side would be helpful as well against the other combo decks, With this mana base, thorn is preferred over Thalia although it won't work with vial (and will likely be hit G2 and G3 with incidental hate). Damping sphere might also just be the additional hate we needed to fight off combo but thorn might just be better (or run both). It also happens to shut slow down the lands from S&S if we can land it in time.
    I think the manabase might give you problems. They aren't unsurmountable problems, just some issues. I can see sacrificing mutavault for wastelands or rishadon port, but not both. You lose too much ability to cast crystalline or hibernation on turn 2 to gain advantage. In an all-in build, we are trying to race an opponent and don't have the luxury of waiting around like D&T does setting up an aggro clock with hatebears.

    Here is Daniel Nunes latest All-In List. I have proxied it up (Karakas and FoW and a 3rd Ethersworn are all I need to finish it). It is part of the Legacy Meathooks Facebook group.

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Mutavault
    3 Ancient Ziggurat -- I use 2 Ancient Ziggurat and 1 Gemstone Caverns
    2 Karakas

    4 Galerider Sliver
    4 Striking Sliver
    2 Sidewinder Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    3 Muscle Sliver
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    2 Winged Sliver

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Force of Will

    Sideboard
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Containment Priest
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Darkheart Sliver
    2 Syphon Sliver
    2 Hunter Sliver

    This provides a quick enough clock forcing people to have it or not. It isn't perfect, but we have tools that help us in these matchups. Wasteland might be useful as well in place of mutavault, but it helps our aggro hands so much.

  7. #207

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by worldsaverinc View Post
    I think the manabase might give you problems. They aren't unsurmountable problems, just some issues. I can see sacrificing mutavault for wastelands or rishadon port, but not both. You lose too much ability to cast crystalline or hibernation on turn 2 to gain advantage.
    Has anyone actually tested it though or is all of this just conjecture? I don't plan on sitting around like DnT but instead to play them similarly to how goblins use them for disruption while still out aggro-ing the opponent.

    You are right in that it'll make the turn 2 crystalline/hibernation sliver play more difficult, but I planned on cutting 2 hibernation slivers for diffusion slivers anyways because I'm not super impressed with the card.

  8. #208

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by mambosong View Post
    Has anyone actually tested it though or is all of this just conjecture? I don't plan on sitting around like DnT but instead to play them similarly to how goblins use them for disruption while still out aggro-ing the opponent.

    You are right in that it'll make the turn 2 crystalline/hibernation sliver play more difficult, but I planned on cutting 2 hibernation slivers for diffusion slivers anyways because I'm not super impressed with the card.
    David Nunes has extensively tested his manabase. I am not sure he has tested yours. He just 5-0ed a league with his.

    I like Hibernation for things to do with Aether Vial. They are also 2/2 creatures which are relevant at times. I like being able to bounce a creature as a block and have it live or prevent lifelink or them gaining life. For example, you can block a thoughtknot seer and gain 2 life by bouncing the sliver until you get enough on board.

  9. #209

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by worldsaverinc View Post
    David Nunes has extensively tested his manabase. I am not sure he has tested yours. He just 5-0ed a league with his.
    Yeah, I saw that he did that which is great. I'm not questioning whether or not his manabase is solid. I'm just looking for some untapped innovation. I'm in the process of acquiring them in paper, which may take awhile but when i get around to testing it I'll post honest results of them. Unfortunately I don't have MTGO which would've helped speed up the testing progress since I only get to play paper legacy once a week at most.

  10. #210

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Do you think that some of the new slivers in horizons will make the cut to the deck?

  11. #211

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by alvoi View Post
    Do you think that some of the new slivers in horizons will make the cut to the deck?
    Cloudshredder sliver is a clear upgrade for Galerider Sliver. But I wouldn't cut galerider completely. Bladeback sliver and Tempered Sliver could make it in the deck as bullets. But test them out, then you'll know if they are worthy. Also Spiteful Sliver gives some more reach to the deck.

  12. #212
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklingske View Post
    Cloudshredder sliver is a clear upgrade for Galerider Sliver. But I wouldn't cut galerider completely. Bladeback sliver and Tempered Sliver could make it in the deck as bullets. But test them out, then you'll know if they are worthy. Also Spiteful Sliver gives some more reach to the deck.
    I would rather say it is an upgrade to "Winged Sliver" not Galerider. CMC 1 is the real deal.

    Unsettled Mariner seems to have some potential. Not sure it is Legacy playable but I could see a mix with Hibernation.

    Regards,

    Ralf

  13. #213

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Took the little buggers out to town yesterday. 30ppl, 5 rounds.
    R1 against Lands 0-2
    Both games stuck on land. G1 2 lands, G1 1 land. Both games I never had the chance to really play.
    R2 UR Delver 1-2
    G3 was very close, but a topdecked bolt killed me.
    R3 against Foodchain 0-2
    Both games were over very quick. G1 kill on T3, G2 kill on T5
    R4 against Burn 2-0
    He was stuck on mana both games
    R5 against eldrazi 2-0
    Quick beats of slivers are faster then an onslaught of Eldrazi.

    MVP: Cloudshredder Sliver
    Cons: the manabase and the combo MU.

  14. #214

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Posting my list to keep thread alive and get some input. There are facebook groups but most aren't that concerned with legacy.

    Manabase:
    4 caverns
    4 hives
    7 blue fetches
    2 tundra
    1 volcanic
    1 tropical

    nonslivers:
    4 vials
    4 fows
    4 brainstorms

    slivers:

    4 crystalline
    4 unsettled mariner
    4 cloudshredder
    2 hibernation
    4 galerider
    3 striking
    4 predatory
    4 sinew


    sb right now is a mix of stuff I am still testing

    force of negation
    leyline voids
    stps
    2 harmonic
    and whatever else i have to pad it out

    For the sb i think RIPS and surgicals may be great mix over the leylines

    harmonics haven't been great lately actually. FON comes in more when i have noncreature problems

    FON is great. I think all versions probably want 3 in the sb

    Mained- Hookman (settler) and cloudshredder are real deal. I honestly don't ever feel bad drawing multiples of the cloudshredder. It changes up the clock quite a bit and can just-vial sliver sliver turn 3 for the win sometimes.
    Hookman stops SO MUCH. Wasteland, removal, targeted discard, planeswalker activations, ports, thespians stage on our stuff

    I think red is the color to be now between Striking and Cloudshredder. Being white actually helps as we are majority UW even more so now. As much as I DO NOT want to remove the hibernations, I think it's probably the right call for mana base reasons. I think mutavaults in there somewhere might still be good, but with so many XX cost slivers you really need NOT colorless mana. Mutavaults probably go with more muscle heavy builds.

    First strike is relevant right now with Baleful Strix and Coatl surprises. Sidewinder could also fit there if insisting on NOT red.

    I think a list like:

    4 crystal
    4 hookmen
    4 sinew
    8 muscleys
    4 galerider
    3-sidewinder
    2 something else idk phantasmal image

    I may try that out too.

    I like fetches and duals over the 5 color mana base. It opens up the sb so much and hard casting Forces is real. Also if you don't have duals and fetches or $1000 to play decks like slivers then go 5 color mana base and dont worry about it

  15. #215

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    2 plated why nots

  16. #216
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    played last tuesday at my local with this version, which is extremely close to daniel nunes' lists. i spoke with him a little on fb and i think that helped iron out some of the deck construction.

    matchups:

    r1: infect (0-2)
    lost to blighted agent quickly in 2 games

    r2: rug breach (2-1)
    g1 lost to combo
    g2 and 3 i drew a combination of leylines, chalice, mariners (to protect the former 2), fow

    r3: eldrazi (2-0)
    striking sliver was very helpful here

    r4: miracles
    g1 i was overpowered by terminus and mystic sanctuary
    g2 and g3 were still close, but i had great draws and didn't overextend.

    thoughts:

    i might consider plague engineer in the sb. it can help in a lot of matchups and is very castable. i didn't mind having 1 karakas and also was fine with mana confluence, but my sample size in games is quite small. i would have loved to use sliver hive in the miracles matchup, but it didn't come up when i had enough mana to use.


    3 Cloudshredder Sliver
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Galerider Sliver
    3 Hibernation Sliver
    2 Muscle Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    2 Sidewinder Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    3 Striking Sliver
    3 Unsettled Mariner
    4 Force of Will
    4 Aether Vial
    2 Ancient Ziggurat
    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Karakas
    2 Mana Confluence
    3 Mutavault
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    SB:
    1 Unsettled Mariner
    3 Chalice of the Void
    2 Dismember
    1 Force of Negation
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Harmonic Sliver
    4 Leyline of the Void


    -rob
    -rob

  17. #217

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Hey all ! I wrote a Sliver primer on the french website Legacy France : http://www.legacy-france.org/index.p...46#entry291694

    Here is a google translation of the primer (I am lazy, I don't feel to translate it haha). So, sorry for the approximation. If you want me to translate it properly and make a real english primer, feel free to ask me.


    Welcome to this new primer on Slivers !


    The list having undergone many changes over the years, it is time to restore its coat of arms, dust the swarm and welcome the new slivers within it.

    1. HISTORY OF DECK
    2. PRESENTATION OF DECK
    3. WHY PLAY SLIVOIDES
    4. STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES OF DECK
    5. LIST OF MATCH-UP



    1. HISTORY OF DECK

    I will speak in this primer only of Slivers in Legacy.

    In its early days, the deck was called Meathooks, or Counter-Slivers. It was roughly a Merfolk list without Merfolk, with Aether Vial, Mutavault, Daze, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares and the whole package. The colors were Bant UGW to play the main slivers that were the Crystallines and the lords. Here is an example of a list from the period: https: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=115&d=108224&f=LE
    At that time, the deck never perfected and remained a "pet deck" like any other. All of the power in the deck lay in the Crystalline Sliver.

    Then the deck was relaunched in 2014 with the release of M14 and several predators joined the swarm of aliens: Galerider Sliver, Predatory Sliver, Siphon Sliver, Striking Sliver.
    Two years ago, the appearance of Cavern of Souls had already been an asset to the deck. The following year, at the end of M15, we discovered Sliver Hive. The deck could finally start playing 4 or more colors, and integrate the Hibernation Sliver.

    More and more "Full Slivers" lists appeared, like the one played by Daniel Nunes in 2015 (Brazilian player who has played Slivers for many years, and who is still to this day one of the only (the only one? ^^) regularly with Slivers):
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11139&d=263388&f=LE
    (Note the exclamation point at the end of the list title to show the pet deck dimension of the list !).
    This list was his first perf, and is relatively close to today's Slivers lists. We can see the appearance of the Karakas main deck. And no fuss: apart from the Force of Will, we are on fullsliversinyourface.

    Still a little weak manabase, but which is improved thanks to the appearance of Unclaimed Territory in 2017 with the Ixalan edition. That's it, the list is stable and begins to drip like this at the end of 2017 which finished top8 on 149 players, again piloted by Daniel Nunes: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17691&d=309605&f=LE

    Finally, the Modern Horizon edition brings in 2019 two new things that are now played main deck in most of the lists: I talked about Unsettled Mariner and Cloudshredder Sliver.

    Here is the latest list from Daniel Nunes:
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23913&f=LE

    2. PRESENTATION OF DECK

    Aggro, aggro, aggro and again aggro. Line up Slivers, see the flabbergasted looks of his opponents and hear the lamentations of their wives, dixit Conan the Barbarian who is an excellent Sliver player.

    In pure goldfish with nothing in front, the deck is about 80% T4 kill. And in fact, we also see that this T4 kill is regular even with the disrupt in front. It should be understood that the deck contains ONLY Slivers apart from the Force of Will, and that the exits are always very aggressive because all the cards are equal. The deck plays redundancy and regularity in its outputs. In the end, he does very few mulligans.

    So let's go for the presentation of the swarm.

    THE MAIN-DECK

    Crystalline Sliver
    The queen of the swarm. This card makes the deck unmanageable for most fair decks. If it hits the board, it's game breaker in a lot of match ups, starting with Delver. I have already seen Delver conceding against T2 Crystalline on Caverns of Souls. He is in x4 without asking any questions.
    Hibernation Sliver
    The cousin of the Crystalline, it is less good in terms of protecting the Slivos one by one, but it will allow to shave the board easily. Accompanied by a Vial at 2, it is unmanageable. It is also excellent for chump blocking creatures larger than him such as Griselbrand or other Tarmogoyfs inflated with steroids. Beware, however, of the loss of life points. It is in x3 or x4.
    Galerider Sliver
    A CCM1 which announces the color. Theft is the best escape ability in Legacy. Auto include in x4. And since there is never enough, it is accompanied by the
    Cloudshredder Sliver
    I sincerely think that it is this new sliver that allows the deck to take off. It is the first sliver to give a double capa flight + speed, fusion of the Winger Sliver and Heart Sliver. It makes aggro unmanageable and unpredictable, testing it is adopting it. It replaced the Winged Sliver as soon as it was released. I am surprised that it is only played in two copies on most lists.
    Muscle Sliver, Sinew Sliver and Predatory Sliver
    12 lords +1 +1, because there is never too much. Each in x4, but the latest lists tend to play the Muscle only in two or three copies, to replace it with Plated Sliver.
    Striking Sliver
    The initiative is good in these deleterious times when the Ice-Fang Coatl pululent. He is a key card in many match ups, starting with Eldrazi. In x4 most of the time.
    Unsettler Mariner
    The youngest. This changeling (which is therefore a sliver) was not adopted immediately, then ended up being played main deck in two or three copies in the majority of the lists. Bulk examples of its capacity: all discard and removals, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Flickerwisp, Jitte counters, Kolaghan's Command which costs two more, Liliana of the Veil, Intuition, Tendrils of Agony...
    Plated Sliver
    It increases T1, and is mainly played in a meta where there is Plague Engineer.
    Aether Vial
    No need to prove the usefulness of this card in a tribal deck.
    Force of will
    It is played main deck in all the lists (except mine haha).

    4 Cavern of Souls
    Because we like to be uncounterables and play 5 colors.
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    A cave of souls without the uncounterable side.
    4 Sliver Hive
    Another 5-color land, only for playing Slivers. But do not trust it: the capacity of this land is hardly ever useful because it is far too heavy to pay; maybe from time to time in late game ontre control.
    3 Mutavault
    It's been a while since, like in Merfolk, the lists only play three.
    2 Karakas
    All the lists today play two main decks. They don't penalize base mana at all, and almost never cause color death. Be careful to simply sequence the lands.
    3 Ancient Ziggurat
    Multicolored lands, but with the defect of not being able to play vial, activate mutavault etc.

    THE SIDE
    Mainly anti-combo oriented: Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, Containment Priest, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Force of Negation, and two or three Harmonic Sliver.
    Envoyer des commentaires


    3. WHY PLAY SLIVERS

    - Because we are in confinement and there is only that to do
    - To see his opponent's flabbergasted mine when he loses to Slivers!
    - Because nobody is prepared against and that legacy decks are mostly not built to beat pure aggro.
    - Because as a result, it is intrinsically built to beat fair decks.
    - Because it's style.
    - Because people have a priori on it and we have to defend diversity. The deck has really evolved over the past few years, but no one has really looked into it, considering it a losing pet deck on Wasteland and combo.
    - Because the deck has excellent match ups, and plenty to fight against combos.
    - And then it's the style.
    - Because it’s still hot, fresh from the egg of its Sliver Queen, and just waiting to be played, tested and worked.
    - Because it's still a cheap deck to buy.
    - And above all, it's the style.
    - Because it is an easy deck to play, which comes out easily and helps minimize play errors - which over a long tournament is good for bad guys like me.
    - Because there are lots of other interesting Slivers that are just waiting to be tested: Leeching Sliver, Homing Sliver, Necrotic Sliver, Dregscape Sliver, Lavabelly Sliver, Syphon Sliver. Bonus point if you play a 5 color Sliver.
    - Because you have to be one of the first to play it before people realize it's a solid tier 2 and really start to test it, and be able to say "I was there at the start, I was there when it is not performing. "
    - Because since it is only considered as a pet deck and few people play it, it only waits for a good player to perfer.
    - And above all it's style, don't look.


    4. STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES OF DECK

    STRENGTHS
    Well, it is strong.

    WEAKNESSES OF DECK
    Well, there is none.
    Ah yes, he loses on Glacial Chiasm, Tabernacle, Bridge, Humility, and Wasteland recursive if he did not have time to set-up. And then when the opponent is too naughty and he manages our slivers one by one or with a board shave, it's not very nice.

    STRENGTH IN THE META
    The deck currently benefits from a meta which is particularly favorable to it. Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista allow decks to have very easy access to basics, therefore less balance sheet, therefore less Wasteland, therefore less Blood Moon etc. And the slivos make fun of Oko.


    5. LIST OF MATCH UP

    From there, this is only my personal opinion. What, how has it been from the start?

    It should be understood that Slivers is a deck that is hardly ever played. As a result, it is complex to get accurate match ups based on games from hundreds of players around the world. We are only a handful of diehard Slivers !
    (You should be careful with the data below, which is based only on my own gaming experience and my own list, which is completly different from the others lists).

    I had to play IRL and online more than 200 games, and double it in goldfish. I keep a Google Sheet up to date with the different match ups I meet. I have counted more than 180 games to date. At the bottom, in sheet 2 "MATCHUPS", you have the percentage of winrate of each match up as well as the number of set played.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1696469013

    To whomever wants it, I am available to play games on Cockatrice in order to test and specify certain match ups. If you want more details on some match ups, don't hesitate.

    Here is a brief list of the different meta match ups:


    Delver
    Positive
    Each card in the deck is a sore for them. 8 essentials (Vial, Cavern), 8 to 11 protectors (Crystalline, Hibernation, Mariner), 8 flying (Galerider, Cloudshredder), and 12 lords, the match up is complicated for Delver.
    The Delver version that is most likely to get by is Grixis Delver, because he plays Plague Engineer. A Plague on the board is not such a big deal if you have at least one Lord or a Plated Sliver to protect, but two Plague and it will be game most of the time.
    Side: Chalice IN, Hibernation OUT (to use it is to lose PV and put us out of time).

    BUG, Bant, aggro Loam midrange decks and everything that plays Uro
    Positive
    It is mainly about revolving around Ice-Fangs (thanks to the Striking Sliver). Oko is not a problem, we can even ignore him and let him do his stuff, he does not catch up with the race.
    Side: nothing

    Miracles
    Balanced to positive
    Slivers is historically the predator of Miracles. But recent versions have more weapons with Oko, Ice-Fang and Mystic Sanctuary, and some vicious like play Blood Moon in side. The match up is not as simple as it used to be, and you have to know how to turn around the Ice-Fang and Terminus. A good knowledge of the match up is essential.
    Side: I would have said Calice before, but I'm less and less sure (the deck has learned to play against and now has a lot of weapons against).

    Food Chain / Aluren
    Positive
    We will play this match up in the same way as midrangs such as BUG Control. Watch out for Ice-Fang and Ballistas.
    Side: Harmonic Sliver, not sure.

    Death and Taxes
    Very positive
    A butcher shop, too bad the deck disappeared from the meta because of Oko, we would like to meet more!
    Side: We can, if need be, bring in the Harmonics, but it's not even necessary because win-more.

    Eldrazi
    Slightly positive
    The match up will really depend on everyone's exit. If they have a good outing with Mimic, Knot Seer and Smasher, it's going to be complicated. You have to be either more aggressive than them, or stay in defense in order to prevent them from attacking, gaining weight and then attacking them with a fly.
    The Sliver Striking is a key card in the match up: T1 first Strike, T2 lord and it is a wall that is difficult to manage.
    Side: nothing special

    Cloudpost
    Slightly negative
    Again, this is a question of exit. If we manage to be faster than them it's won, but if they manage to set-up with a Ugin shot or with an All is Dust well placed, it's over.
    Side: Harmonic Sliver

    Lands
    Unbeatable. You can concede and leave to cry in PLS by eating a Bigmac.
    Recursive Wasteland, Looping Punishing Fire, Tabernacle, Glacial Chiasm ... So many cards that crush us.
    Side: whatever you want, it's dead anyway.

    Burn
    Negative
    Burn is faster than us, the Eidolons really hurt us without the Vial, Price of Progress impaled us ... It's hard. He really has to have a soft exit to win. He's the attacker and we have to stay on defense.
    Advice: stay in two lands no matter what to minimize the damage of the Price. When I played Syphon Sliver main deck or Leyline of Sanctity on the side, the winrate was positive.
    Side: not even sure of the chalices. It's slow, it decreases our clock, it takes Smash to Smithereens...

    Moon Stompy
    Very negative
    Blood Moon, Bridge, Chalice 1 or Abrade on Vial, Karn, turbo Rabblemaster ... Each of these cards impaled us. It's very complicated, but good aggro and a well-placed Force of Will can make a difference.
    Side: Harmonic Sliver


    Dark depths
    Positive
    The match up is complicated for the Depths player: we manage Marit Lage quite easily thanks to Karakas and theft (bonus if Hibernation is there to chump block). You just have to plan the Marit Lage outings carefully and be careful to keep blockers.
    Side: nothing special

    Réanimator
    Positive
    Basic, just like for Marit Lage and Sneak Show, we have Force of Will, Karakas and fly + Hibernation which can always fly the game 1. Post side, we have antgrave.
    Side: antigrave

    Sneak Show
    Balanced
    Just like against Dark Depths and Réanimator, we have access to the game 1 Force of Will, Karakas and fly + Hibernation. Show and Tell gives us the opportunity to pose a threat for free, and I have won the race against an Emrakül several times, even after an annihilating attack.
    Side: Harmonic Sliver

    Dredge
    Positive
    As often, we will lose game 1 and then return from the antigrave. But even G1, if the Dredge has a slightly soft output we can win the aggro race.
    Side: antigrave

    ANT / TES
    Balanced
    I refer you to this game by Bryant Cook against Daniel Nunes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYoj...ohrF5Ore4kppAA
    The G1 is complicated (even if you can win it with Fow and Mariner + clock), and post side we take in all the haste in the world with Chalices, antigrav etc
    Side: Chalice, antigrave, and all that comes to hand! But be careful not to dilute your aggro too much.

    Bomberman
    Negative
    We have weapons against him: FoW, Chalice at 0, Harmonic Sliver, all that with a big aggro. But outings based on Mentor T1 are complicated to manage.
    Side: Chalice, Harmonic Sliver (for Bridge in particular, otherwise it's game).

    Elves
    Balanced
    Surprisingly, the Slivers are doing pretty well against green tights. We are negative in game 1, then we're favored in game 2 thanks to Chalice and Cage.
    Side: Chalice, cage, antigrave

    Infect
    Balanced
    Same observation as for Elves. The advantage of Infect is that it can do a T2 turbo kill, and the Blighted Agent is a real problem.
    Side: Chalice


    Presentation of my list.
    Well, maybe I will do it later

  18. #218
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    played last tuesday at my local with this version, which is extremely close to daniel nunes' lists. i spoke with him a little on fb and i think that helped iron out some of the deck construction.

    matchups:

    r1: infect (0-2)
    lost to blighted agent quickly in 2 games

    r2: rug breach (2-1)
    g1 lost to combo
    g2 and 3 i drew a combination of leylines, chalice, mariners (to protect the former 2), fow

    r3: eldrazi (2-0)
    striking sliver was very helpful here

    r4: miracles
    g1 i was overpowered by terminus and mystic sanctuary
    g2 and g3 were still close, but i had great draws and didn't overextend.

    thoughts:

    i might consider plague engineer in the sb. it can help in a lot of matchups and is very castable. i didn't mind having 1 karakas and also was fine with mana confluence, but my sample size in games is quite small. i would have loved to use sliver hive in the miracles matchup, but it didn't come up when i had enough mana to use.


    3 Cloudshredder Sliver
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Galerider Sliver
    3 Hibernation Sliver
    2 Muscle Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    2 Sidewinder Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    3 Striking Sliver
    3 Unsettled Mariner
    4 Force of Will
    4 Aether Vial
    2 Ancient Ziggurat
    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Karakas
    2 Mana Confluence
    3 Mutavault
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    SB:
    1 Unsettled Mariner
    3 Chalice of the Void
    2 Dismember
    1 Force of Negation
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Harmonic Sliver
    4 Leyline of the Void


    -rob
    Hello,

    I think Sidewinder overlaps too much with Striking. It is all for the offensive side and sometimes, I am on the defensive side. Especially early game because sliver needs to reach a critical mass to be deadly.
    My actual split is the following
    3 striking -> considering upping to 4 as you always want 1, especially with all those flying snakes around
    2 plated -> better overall than sidewinder
    2 venom -> deathtouch+first strike is real
    2 syphon -> Can't live without those. Building a board presence often means not chump blocking and when you finally reach the critical mass, attacking/defending while gaining back lost life is HUGE.
    2 cloud -> I was hyped but after testing I'll stick with 2 (as the old tech of 2 winged sliver). Haste is sometime needed but deck' space is tight...very tight. Evasion is sometimes needed but forcing your way through with pure force also works.

    4 Galerider
    4 Hibernation
    4 Mariner -> in some MU almost acts as a FOW, a stifle...swiss army knife.
    4 Crysta
    9 lords -> considering swapping 1 out for the 4th striking. Although I do like having 9/10 lords. Plated is a good improvement to be honest as they somehow act as "little" lord 9 and 10 (even more with striking + venom)

    No FOW and 4 vials (FOW in SB)
    Still trying to find what the best mana config should be. SB is up in the air.


    1) 14 CMC 1.Period. Having +90% odds to have a CMC1 in an opener is definitely where I want to be and participate @ building a board presence.
    2) Manabase is rough // tough. If you include SB strategy involving other color/creature type it gets even messier.

    Keep up zerging :p

    Ralf.

  19. #219
    Sushi or Meat and Eggs
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Here me out . . . . Lurrus. All your permanents are <=CMC 2, Lurrus would give you the ability to recur slivers that were destroyed etc, doesn't take up any room MD, etc. Although with Lurrus in SB, you might think about adding in Bauble and Petal . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
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  20. #220
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Hi all. Haven't played in a couple years, but I've been kind of keeping an eye on the Legacy scene. Thought I'd pop in to update the OP/Primer. Honestly, it could use a lot more fleshing out, but at least it's not so woefully out of date any more. Daniel Nunes' list looks really good. What are the current thoughts on Wasteland vs Mutavault?
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