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Thread: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

  1. #181

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    So with the return of dominaria. What kind of Sliver would be needed to be printed to make this deck even more scarier?

  2. #182

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Eldrazi Sliver 3

    Slivers get Annihilate 1.

    2/2

    What they'll actually print:


    Buscemi Sliver UUU

    Sliver Dinosaur Ninja Beast

    All your slivers have MegaEnrage (When this creature is dealt damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it.).

    1/1
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    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
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  3. #183
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by PuppyWuppy View Post
    So with the return of dominaria. What kind of Sliver would be needed to be printed to make this deck even more scarier?
    Meaning more than not scary at all? This deck is currently not competitive in the meta. Merfolk is the better Lord tribal deck, and even that is not tier 1.

    The problem with Slivers is twofold. First, card advantage. You need at least 3 slivers, and ideally 4-5 to make a really credible threat. However, that hypothetical 5-sliver army is easily 5-for-1'd with a Toxic Deluge, Terminus, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, etc.

    Not only that, but because you need critical mass on the field, you need critical mass in the deck. That means that for beef/power you're "wasting" 12 slots to Lords, whereas another deck can use just 4 slots on Anglers, Tarmogoyfs, Mentors, etc. and have remaining design space for disruption (countermagic/removal/etc.) and library manipulation (draw/cantrips/tutors). Merfolk has Lords, but their Lords also allow them to landwalk the most popular color in the format. That's "free" evasion for which we'd need an entire other card (Galerider). See the pattern? More deck space taken up. More overextension onto the board.

    Second, the manabase. Using more colors trades greediness for power. You're more easily disrupted with nonbasic hate, but you can make use of the best cards that your colors have to offer. However, there are so many critical colorless land like Cavern and Mutavault that the rest of the manabase cannot reliably support casting both colored spells and colored creatures. This is the reason for the recent uptick in "all-in" slivers, which is effectively kitchen table tribal: you take a pile of slivers, and a pile of land, smash them together and hope for the best. Compare to Merfolk, where they can actually run 10 or more basic Islands to cast their non-Merfolk spells. Ironically, while the point of going multicolor is to make use of the colors' best spells, it's the single color deck which is better able to actually consistently cast its non-creature spells.

    So, what can Wizards do to help Legacy slivers? Well, they can't print a sliver that fixes the fundamental manabase problems, and I bet they won't print slivers that have multiple roles, the way Lord of Atlantis has the multiple roles of granting pump and evasion.

    If they printed Deathrite Sliver, a 1/2 which casts for G or B and gave all slivers the abilities of Deathrite Shaman, that could actually help both of the problems above. Good luck with that.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  4. #184

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    They could print a couple slivers that would Slivers out.

    1. Graveyard hate sliver, probably on the side of the new dinosaur or mardu foe reaper, or hopefully Dryad Militant
    2. Taxing Sliver, probably like Judge's Familiar, Cursecatcher, Mauseleum Wanderer, although a cheap Thalia like sliver would be awesome. Non-Sliver spells cost (1) more to cast, and all slivers you control get this. It would help Sliver prison.
    3. Cantrip Sliver something along the lines of Silvergill Adept, Elvish Visionary would be good, a cheaper non-defender Dormant Sliver essentially, the other option is a Sliver like Sylvan Messenger or the Boros Ally one. On the low powered end, Scry might be an option.
    4. Cheaper utility slivers might help keep the curve low like a 2 mana haste sliver, 2 or 1 mana lifelink sliver, better keywords. Perhaps cheaper/better recursion of slivers in the graveyard.

    Unclaimed Territory will help all-in sliver lists.

  5. #185
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    1. Neat, but doesn't help with the two fundamental problems facing slivers. Yardhate has never been a problem in this deck.
    2. So with a taxing sliver and two muscles, everything else costs 3 more colorless? That will never get printed.
    3. If all Slivers Scryed for 1 as they entered the battlefield, that is NOT low powered. It would actually be kinda neat, but insanely powerful and I doubt it would get printed.
    4. We do have a 2-mana haste sliver; just not in our normal colors. https://scryfall.com/search?q=sliver%20o%3Ahaste Quick Sliver is on-color, 2 mana, and gives pseudo-haste as your creatures don't have to wait on board for an entire turn before attacking.

    I'd note that only your #3 solves the major problems I outlined with the deck, as a ton of scrying can help smooth out mana. 4 is pretty generic, so it could conceivably help the second problem I listed. Ultimately, we don't need raw power. We don't need better keywords. We need to run as effective a sliver army with fewer cards in the deck, and that requires individual cards that each fill multiple roles.

    By the way, all-in is not the way to go if you want to be competitive. There are a ton of moon effects now, and Miracles sometimes runs maindeck B2B. Printing cards that makes for better all-in sliver decks does not make for more competitive Legacy sliver decks. The best Wurm decks still do not get played in competitive Legacy even as they print more and better Wurm cards.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  6. #186

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Ok, I don't have the budget for CounterSliver, so I am going to keep playing All-In sliver varients until I do. Therefore I am interested in making All-In Sliver as competitive as possible.

    I think Scry might be very powerful to help out, but what do you think of Cursecatcher-like Sliver rather than Thalia. I would have to sacrifice the sliver to gain the effect for 1 spell. I think it could work. Scry plus Slivercatcher

    I find Scry is weaker than Cantriping directly like Dormant Sliver, so it has a better chance to make it. They are also doing alot of See the top 4 cards of your deck type effects which might get reworded for Slivers.

    Frankly, I would also like some of these for modern/pauper as well.

    Likely though we are going to be getting new keywords for Slivers.

    I would think the problem with Slivers is that they need perhaps better Hatebear-esque capabilities and Card Draw/Advantage. Anything like those two things might be relevant for any Sliver variant/format with Card Draw/Advantage being more important than Hatebear. Slivers are already better at combat tricks the most other tribes due to their keyword advantage.

    IF Merfolk is better at playing the Blue game as tribes and Elves at the combo game of tribes. Slivers should be better at something and I think that something should be Prison/Hatebear effects. Shroud on all your slivers is pretty powerful as is First strike, Flying, Anthems, bounce, lifelink, haste, flanking, etc.

  7. #187
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by worldsaverinc View Post
    Slivers should be better at something and I think that something should be Prison/Hatebear effects. Shroud on all your slivers is pretty powerful as is First strike, Flying, Anthems, bounce, lifelink, haste, flanking, etc.
    I take issue with the word should. No one says all tribes have to be competitive. Where's my tier 1 goat deck? I agree it would be awesome if my first competitive Legacy deck were once again viable, but Wizards doesn't have any obligation to make it so.

    A sliver powerful enough to make Legacy Slivers viable would also be usable in other decks, the way TNN is usable in decks outside tribal Merfolk, and the way Deathrite Shaman is usable in decks outside tribal Elves. What I'm saying is: such a printing would not just help slivers relative to the format: it would power creep the entire format, which is not a net win for Slivers.

    The problem isn't that we don't have enough effects. The problem is that we don't have enough slots in the deck. You can by all means include those tricky keywords in your sliver army, but you won't have room for the 12 Muscles, which goes precisely back to my point about card efficiency. Our cards don't do enough individually.

    This isn't D&T, where Mirran Crusader wearing Sword of Fire and Ice can singlehandedly do 24 damage in two swings (while drawing you 4 cards). This isn't Merfolk, where a single TNN can take the game with enough disruption backup. Slivers requires critical mass, and that in turn takes too many slots and makes it too vulnerable to removal.

    Edit: Before Predatory Sliver was printed, everyone was clamoring for more more Sliver Lords, and I was saying that extra Muscles wouldn't be enough. Here again I'm saying that more slivers the likes of which we've seen before will not be enough to make the tribe competitive. So go ahead, Wizards. Prove me wrong.
    Last edited by Curby; 09-21-2017 at 03:45 PM.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  8. #188
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    i played Meathooks tonight for fun at Mox Boarding House in Bellevue, Washington and finished 3-1.

    Lost R-1 0-2 Aluren (BUG variation)
    I messed up and FOW a Strix cause I was trying to aggro him out. If I would have saved it I may have been able to win if I counter the Aluren on the following turn. Game two he has a Jitte and I never find a Crystalline or removal for it. Match up seems rough.

    Won R-2 2-0 Four Color Loam
    I win game one fairly easily with early an Vial, Crystalline and lords. Game two I start off with Hibernation he goes for Punishing Fire, I bounce and then Surgical his Fires. Turns out his hand was another Fire a Grove and other lands. Win easily from there.

    Won R-3 2-0 Czech Pile
    Game one my hand is bonkers with a Vial, Cavern, Mutavault, Crystalline, Hibernation, and two lords. On the draw I get my third lord. My opponents first few turns start off with BS, then another BS followed by Ponder and then a Tasigur. I patiently waited to get Vial to two, landed Crystalline and overran with 6/6 and 5/5 monsters. Game two is the same.

    Won R-4 2-0 Miracles
    Another easy match up where I start off with an early Vial and Daze his FOW. I never commit more than two creatures to the board and just beat face. Terminus resolved once. I countered an Entreat and that's all she wrote. Game two I land an early Hibernation and they just can't beat this card. I protect from Swords twice, land a small army and when Terminus comes he just doesn't cast it cause he'd lose his Containment Priest and I had a Vial ready to go. Sees the writing on the wall and scoops.


    I played the standard UGW list with Daze, STP, FOW, BS and your standard Slivers. All in all, I had a great time and I'm sure I'll play this deck at random 4 rounders in the future.

  9. #189

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier of Fortune View Post
    i played Meathooks tonight for fun at Mox Boarding House in Bellevue, Washington and finished 3-1.
    Nice, I saw you wrecking aggro loam from across the table. I dont suppose you could post your list, Looked pretty slick. Been thinking about giving this deck a try at some point.

  10. #190

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Here is a budget list I think that could work now that Unclaimed Territory is being printed.

    4 Muscle Sliver
    4 Galerider Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    2 Winged Sliver
    2 Venom Sliver
    1 Sidewinder Sliver
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Syphon Sliver
    1 Bonescythe Sliver

    4 Force of Will
    4 Æther Vial

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Mutavault
    4 Mana Confluence

    Sideboard
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Phantasmal Image
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Karakas
    1 Syphon Sliver

    Opinions? Thoughts? It is definitely a work in progress. And it may not have enough interaction, but at least it has FoW mainboard. The sideboard could maybe take out the Syphon Sliver for something else, but I do see the deck having enough aggro to beat delver and other fair decks, but not fast enough for burn.
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  11. #191

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Epeirogeny View Post
    Here is a budget list I think that could work now that Unclaimed Territory is being printed.

    4 Muscle Sliver
    4 Galerider Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    2 Winged Sliver
    2 Venom Sliver
    1 Sidewinder Sliver
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Syphon Sliver
    1 Bonescythe Sliver

    4 Force of Will
    4 Æther Vial

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Mutavault
    4 Mana Confluence

    Sideboard
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Phantasmal Image
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Karakas
    1 Syphon Sliver

    Opinions? Thoughts? It is definitely a work in progress. And it may not have enough interaction, but at least it has FoW mainboard. The sideboard could maybe take out the Syphon Sliver for something else, but I do see the deck having enough aggro to beat delver and other fair decks, but not fast enough for burn.
    I might play more Harmonic Slivers, but it seems fine. Why the decision to have no Striking Slivers?

    Striking Sliver might be underrated and allows you to trade more efficiently with things especially with Venom Sliver. I might take Syphon/Bonescythe/Harmonic out of the main and replace them with Striking and you might not need 20 Lands or replace a Mana Confluence with a Karakas

    There is a Legacy meathooks facebook post which has similiar lists called All-In Slivers that might provide you good advice as well.

  12. #192
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    You might want more blue to fully enable FoW. I've heard 14 non-FoW cards is pretty much a bare minimum. I might have missed something but I count 10.

    I highly recommend NOT running singletons in a deck with no search. If it's good, run 3-4*. If it's very situational, run 2-4 in the board. (If this is just a casual deck and you want everything in, then that's another matter.)

    * 1-2 Winged is fine because you're really saying "5-6 Flying slivers."
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  13. #193

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by worldsaverinc View Post
    I might play more Harmonic Slivers, but it seems fine. Why the decision to have no Striking Slivers?

    Striking Sliver might be underrated and allows you to trade more efficiently with things especially with Venom Sliver. I might take Syphon/Bonescythe/Harmonic out of the main and replace them with Striking and you might not need 20 Lands or replace a Mana Confluence with a Karakas

    There is a Legacy meathooks facebook post which has similiar lists called All-In Slivers that might provide you good advice as well.
    Too many Harmonic Slivers hits our own Aether Vials since it is not a "may" trigger. I had no idea about Stiking Sliver, made the list off memory. Definitely seems good. Helps the curve out as well. I would agree to move a few of the random outliers for the Striking Sliver. One Karakas main is good, but not sure if Mana Confluence is the right land to cut. Maybe cut out a Mutavault since the deck is very color hungry.
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  14. #194

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by kirbysdl View Post
    You might want more blue to fully enable FoW. I've heard 14 non-FoW cards is pretty much a bare minimum. I might have missed something but I count 10.

    I highly recommend NOT running singletons in a deck with no search. If it's good, run 3-4*. If it's very situational, run 2-4 in the board. (If this is just a casual deck and you want everything in, then that's another matter.)

    * 1-2 Winged is fine because you're really saying "5-6 Flying slivers."
    I count 14 Blue spells, 18 if you include the FoWs themselves.
    4 Galerider
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    2 Winged Sliver

    The 1-of slivers are probably coming out for Striking Slivers now.
    Sideboard is not set in stone right now, but the deck is bringing in at least 4 piece of hate depending on the matchup. For example, it would bring in 2 Surgical Extractions and 2 Grafdigger's Cage for graveyard decks. Or 2 Mindbreak Trap and 2 Thorn of Amethyst for Storm. Or 2 Pithing Needle, a Karakas, and a Phantasmal Image for Sneak and Show. And so on. Whether it turns into 3 Playsets of hate along with one last 3 of a kind to make a 15 card sideboard I do not know.


    I am not playing this list actively, my main decks are Lands and Pox. I made this list to introduce another possible budget deck into the format. However, for the same price, perhaps Burn, Eldrazi, and/or Merfolk are better. Yet, I have not played any of those decks myself. I have only played against them.
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  15. #195

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Budget Mana Base Slivers List: some updates after testing.


    Deck: Slivers (Budget-like)

    //Main
    4 Muscle Sliver
    4 Galerider Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    4 Striking Sliver
    2 Winged Sliver
    2 Harmonic Sliver
    4 Force of Will
    4 Æther Vial
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Sliver Hive
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    3 Mutavault
    1 Karakas
    4 Mana Confluence

    //Sideboard
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Surgical Extraction
    4 Warping Wail
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Harmonic Sliver

    Display deck statistics


    Combo Decks
    1. Deck still has some issues against Show and Tell decks, especially the Omniscience builds. Karakas in the main should help, but it is minimal with only one main board.
    2. Striking Sliver is good, and works well with the curve. Sidewinder Sliver may have an argument if more Karakas come in the mainboard.
    3. Mindbreak Traps were better than Thorns of Amethyst against storm, because they are also blue cards to help Force of Will as well. It was a rare corner case, but I had two Mindbreak Traps in hand one game with little gas to put pressure on the storm player.
    4. Surgical Extractions seemed to be enough of a deterrent against Reanimator based decks. Dredge is fine if you cant hit Ichorids or Narcomoebas early, and if they get too many out to fuel to combo, it can hit combo pieces.
    5. Again, without Brainstorm the deck if very opening hand dependent. I did not like sideboarding to hate, but seemed necessary against combo decks.



    Fair decks
    • Delver decks were not too much of an issue. Though Force of Will against an Aether Vial can be devastating because it is one way to develop the board around their counterspells. Wasteland was annoying because it always went for the Cavern of Souls.
    • 4 Color Control/Leovold decks were okay because it can outspeed the Leovold and True Name Nemesis threat. However, the board wipes like Toxic Deluge and Pyroclasm were devastating. Learned to not overplay the flying slivers and hold them back for Force of Will fuel. Even Lingering Souls was annoying because it generated so many blockers.
    • It was difficult to out value the midrange and control decks. The deck really just needs to power out as many Sliver Lords and get swinging.


    Prison Control Decks
    Lands is a bigger issue than expected. Punishing Fire, Wasteland Lock, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, and Glacial Chasm are all real problems. It was tough to decide whether Pithing Needle should name Thespian's Stage or Wasteland some games.
    U/W Miracles/Control was surprisingly okay. Cavern of Souls is a life saver in the matchup. The deck is able to get enough pressure out quickly to prevent them from setting up. Yet, there were some games without a Cavern of Souls where they are just able to counter everything and by turn 4 they have turned the corner with Jace or just enough answers like Back to Basics and no Aether Vial on board for us.
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  16. #196

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Would Leyline of the Void be preferable instead of Surgical Extraction? It would stop some of the Lands shenanigans while also helping against Reanimator and Dredge.

    My version without FoW uses Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist to fight off storm.

  17. #197

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by worldsaverinc View Post
    Would Leyline of the Void be preferable instead of Surgical Extraction? It would stop some of the Lands shenanigans while also helping against Reanimator and Dredge.

    My version without FoW uses Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist to fight off storm.
    Perhaps, but if you draw into Leyline of the Void it is basically impossible to cast in this deck. Also if you do happen to have two Mana Confluence/City of Brass, Leyline of the Void is too late for Dredge or Reanimator by turn 4. Though both decks can go off turn 1, I would like to have something I could use outside of pregame.
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  18. #198
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    We need some decent, non red card advantage/tutor sliver AND/OR some better priced already existing slivers AND/OR some good taxing sliver (crusecatcher/thalia like).
    But my bet is that we are going to get some "non slivers ... get ... "

  19. #199

    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Is it really necessary to run 12 lord effects? What if you guys went down to 8 and ran 4x Recruiter of the Guard. I know its not a sliver, but it can help tutor for them and sideboard hatebears some of you run.

    Sorry if its been mentioned/tested before, just a fan of the deck and was passing by...

  20. #200
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by streetMage View Post
    Is it really necessary to run 12 lord effects? What if you guys went down to 8 and ran 4x Recruiter of the Guard. I know its not a sliver, but it can help tutor for them and sideboard hatebears some of you run.

    Sorry if its been mentioned/tested before, just a fan of the deck and was passing by...
    Thanks for folowing the idea! I have been playing 9 lords and 2 recruiters for a few months now and it works wonders!!
    quoting myself :

    "- Tutor your missing: Crystaline / Galerider / Hibernation / Phantasmal Image / Lord
    OR POST SB :
    Harmonic / Faerie Maccabre / Phyrexian Revoker / Thalia / Aethersworn Canonist ... You name it.
    - More space in the sb
    - Having a 1/1 non-sliver to block or sacrifice is often a good thing.
    - 2W is very playable especially through a cavern or a vial.
    - Can be copied with Phantasmal Image."

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