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Thread: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

  1. #41
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Khamul View Post

    Life Link is pretty relevant against Storm, that's why I'm currently even at Darkheart over Syphon (which can change soon, btw. But I feel more comfortable with Darkheart in the unfair matches) I boarded Syphon out because it's the slowest Sliver, and I'm unsure about boarding out Lords. Now I see that it's a mistake boarding out lifelink and agree with you that it should stay in.
    For boarding out lords, you really kill their Ad Nauseam with fast Aggro starts, but I can see no other slots, other than maybe 1 Galerider.
    I for my part don't like Echoing Truth against Storm at all, because it only works against Empty, a kill condition I'm naturally resilient against as I'm a swarm deck. Xanthid Swarm is annoying, but Truth just buys you a turn against it. Laying a Lord instead, making you faster might even provoke a block, if not outright kill the storm player. And with more than half of my hate being sorcery speed, Xanthid Swarm is not as backbreaking as it is for other decks.
    I usually just go for a kill as fast as possible, with a Chalice @0 and Force as Backup in the early turns, and after Turn 2 I can afford leaving 1 Mana open for Flusterstorm. Vial Turn 1 allows me to lay the Chalice @1 Turn 2 while still providing a very fast clock from Turn 3 onwards, something you couldn't accomplish with a start not having Vial. Yeah, you could just lay the Chalice @0 instead, but that gives them the opportunity to Brainstorm away the Petals and LEDs, while Chalice @1 completely shuts off their cantrips. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck to find out which one's better...

    Storm is a really tricky Matchup, and I really appreciate the input on that topic. It can just help everyone.
    I know that I don't devote that much of my SB against Storm, but that's mainly because I went through my boarding plans and found only a few cards to board out. With the input of you all I can see what you're doing different and may be able to adapt my playstyle to a better mode. Thank you all in advance :)
    Sure, let's keep talking about Storm as our approach is different.


    1) Against Fast Combo deck, I don't try to win fast. I am rather playing the control role here.

    That's why I like, the hatebear approach, better. Sure, a bunch of 2/2 is not a very impressive clock but 2 of them is already 4 lifes per turn, etc...
    Losing "Lords" is not very important as long as I prevent my opponent from winning.


    2) I've pondered a lot about the Chalice @ 1 or @ 0.

    Chalice @ 1 is far more effective against ANT, much less against TES.
    But Chalice @ 0 is my modjo.

    Why ?
    It just slows down the game to a pace where we can almost fairly win (by neutering the LED + IT non sense).
    It also make sure that you will get to cast those hatebears to further slow him down on his other victory route (DR, DR, CR, AdN etc...)
    Eventually, the more your opponent is spending turns digging, the better.


    3) Reactive cards (FOW, Fluster)

    These cards are hit by their conditional discard (duress) as Chalice and Thorn so we can call it even (between your version and mine).
    What I dislike is that:
    1) Fluster forces you to keep a blue mana open.
    2) And to keep a blue mana open (meaning you won't be able to slam a threat on T2 where I don't care as I will slam my Thorn/bear/slivo anyway for example), you have to keep your vial in, so that you can still advance your game while disturbing your oppo.

    This strategy is "viable" but you don't have enough reactive cards (to my taste) to fight back their discard engine.
    I would further add, the reactive strategy is even worse in a deck not playing BS.

    Those are the main reasons why I have forgo the reactive strategy and so why I am focusing on hatebears.


    4) Meddling Mage

    MM is currently in my sideboard as an experiment.
    As a long time Nic Fit player, I can say that it is our "Cabal Therapy":

    **You name whatever kills you**

    Nevertheless, I don't like him as you will never get to see your opponent's hand (unlike the white version of Shardless for example or any esperblade). So MM is just a freaking "life insurance" that hits or misses.

    Depending on the state board/hands, you will likely name the following (not ordered):
    - DR
    - Tendrils
    - Decay
    - IT

    I did name Tendril last time to just get killed by DR, DR, CR, AdN -> find decay for MM, kill you with Tendril...

    So MM alone does not win you a game.

    I will be testing Leonin Arbiter to see whether I can get more value out of him than MM (with a wider application against many more MU).

    Please also note that I truly think Canonist > MM. As you are not playing Canonist consider it before including MM (and don't raise the blue count issue because blablabla)


    5) Echoing Truth

    I agree ET is pretty much useless but as long as I am playing the control role, I'll pack them against Storm.
    Here are a few usecases that happened to me in the past (not all with Slivers)

    1) You can get a chrome mox responding to an IT (hilarious) for those storm decks that play it.
    2) I hate losing to Goblins and if you don't have Syphon in hand, you have 0.01% chance to win the race (mark my words).
    3) It pitches to FOW
    4)"EOT bounce COTV, replay chalice @ 1 during your turn" is one of those plays that makes your oppo cry hard.
    5) Bounce a hatebear/COTV/whatever bouncable to save it from Abrupt Decay

    I'll be posting my sideboarding strategy for 12 MU in the next few hours/days.

    Keep discussing !

    Ralf

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Some great discussion here, guys.

    @Khamul: Thank you for the tournament report and comments. The only thing I would say about your bad day is it happens. Look for ways to improve the deck and your strategies, of course, but don't overreact to short term results, whether they're good or bad.

    Regarding the manabase, we're going to struggle for a while to find the right balance. I'm not fully on board with Ralf's "play nothing but rainbow lands" idea, because there simply aren't enough good ones to make it work. That said, I think we can look a little bit beyond just Caverns and Hives, to some of the other rainbow lands that have been mentioned.
    • Ancient Ziggurat: Yes, it has drawbacks, which we've discussed. However, I think if you try playing just one, you'll find that it helps you a lot more often than it hurts you. After all, we do play upwards of 28 creatures. Also, this land is great for the hatebear sideboard strategy.
    • Reflecting Pool: Again, I think you can play one of these and be pretty happy with it. Ralf says two. I would be paranoid about drawing both of them and having clever opponents wasteland around them, leaving us with two dead lands, but maybe I should be bolder. In any case, I have no qualms about playing one, and you shouldn't either.
    • Undiscovered Paradise: Another great one to run as a singleton. Pain-free colored mana, with a drawback that usually doesn't matter.

    So, right there, we have three additional rainbow lands you can add to your manabase, all with pretty good utility and minimal fuss. Then you could move on to painlands like City of Brass or Mana Confluence, if you feel so inclined. Personally, I'm not a fan of those, but your mileage may vary.

    As for hatebears, I think I'm going to pass on Meddling Mage. As Ralf says, Canonist is significantly better. As is Thalia/Thorn of Amethyst. So, I think right this moment, I would suggest running a mix of Canonists, Containment Priests, Thalias/Thorns, and Revokers.

    You can take a look at my updated Chalice Slivers list in the primer, including sideboard. I'm always tweaking my list.

    Oh, and regarding the strategy for fetchlands, I think maybe we do need to be more fearless in the face of Wasteland, fetching duals more often than not. It's possible we might even want to ditch the basic island altogether. I do like having it against Burn, though. And it's probably good to have against Blood Moon decks.
    Last edited by Volt; 12-09-2015 at 03:00 PM.
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    Regarding the manabase, we're going to struggle for a while to find the right balance. I'm not fully on board with Ralf's "play nothing but rainbow lands" idea, because there simply aren't enough good ones to make it work. That said, I think we can look a little bit beyond just Caverns and Hives, to some of the other rainbow lands that have been mentioned.
    Since Gemstone mine and Undiscovered Paradise were suggested, perhaps Dromar's Cavern or Treva's Ruins should be considered in combination with Gemstone mine? Back in the day these lands worked well together.
    ---
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    Regarding the manabase, we're going to struggle for a while to find the right balance. I'm not fully on board with Ralf's "play nothing but rainbow lands"
    I disagree !!!
    I play 2 Tundra :-)

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    @Khamul: Thank you for the tournament report and comments. The only thing I would say about your bad day is it happens. Look for ways to improve the deck and your strategies, of course, but don't overreact to short term results, whether they're good or bad.
    Yeah, sucks to hear about the result that day but I'm sure you'll learn from it, and it's nice to know that your deck has untapped potential. To be honest, I'd rather have poor performance due to my skills than my deck. I can improve my skills with more practice, but if my deck is just plain outclassed by everything else in the room, that's a much harder problem to solve. (You can switch decks, but the goal here is to try to take Meathooks as far as possible.)
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    So, I thought I'd take a break from the discussion on perfecting the Chalice Slivers list and share a couple other lists I've been tinkering with.

    First, there's this:

    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    4 Plated Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    4 Predatory Sliver
    3 Muscle Sliver
    3 Galerider Sliver
    2 Winged Sliver

    4 AEther Vial
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm

    4 Mutavault
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Sliver Hive
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea

    Looks like a pretty standard modern countersliver list, except... Plated Sliver! A blast from the past, I know. It seems everybody couldn't get rid of this guy fast enough once Predatory got printed. What you might not have thought about is the fact that he typically speeds up your clock by a turn, sometimes two. And just watch your opponent try to figure out how to deal with your fat-ass slivers. As I used to be fond of saying, don't underrate the plate! I've actually been doing a bit of testing with this list, and it's pretty smooth.

    Then there's this somewhat unusual take on an Esper Countersliver list:

    4 Crystalline Sliver
    4 Hibernation Sliver
    4 Sinew Sliver
    4 Leeching Sliver
    3 Syphon Sliver
    3 Galerider Sliver
    2 Winged Sliver
    2 Phantasmal Image

    4 AEther Vial
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Swords to Plowshares

    4 Mutavault
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Plains

    Very experimental. Note the Leeching Sliver, which serves as a pseudo-lord. Since lords are in short supply in this list, we need Syphon Sliver's life gain to help us win races.
    Last edited by Volt; 12-10-2015 at 12:49 PM.
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Just checking: Leeching stacks? So if you have two Leeching Sliver that both attack in a turn, that's 4 noncombat damage right?

    P.S. What's the deal with that artwork? Humanoid body and face ... these aren't the Slivers that I'm looking for.
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by kirbysdl View Post
    Just checking: Leeching stacks?
    Yes, it does !

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Yeah, in the same way that Essence Sliver's effect stacks, so does Leeching Sliver's.

    Also, I totally agree with you, Kirby. These new humanoid-looking slivers are antithetical to me. Gimme back my slithery Giger-esque critters with their deadly meat hooks!
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    So, as promised:

    Elves

    -4 Hibernation Sliver
    -4 Force of Will
    -1 Winged Sliver

    or

    -2 Muscle Sliver
    -2 Syphon Sliver
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -3 Phantasmal Image
    -1 Sliver Hive

    or

    -3 Vial
    -3 Phantasmal Image
    -1 Syphon Sliver
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -1 Muscle Sliver

    +2 Containment Priest
    +2 Ethersworn Canonist
    +1 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Meddling Mage
    +2 Echoing Truth

    The main idea here is to go bigger than Elves.
    Remember that Phantasmal Image can be "king" or "shit" in this MU, as copying any Hoof / huge monster if you survive the attack phase might be enough to lethal strike back. But unfortunately, Image dies if it is targetted by Quirion or Symbiote.
    If you see Progenitus, keep some Image. If not...hmm definitely cut it.

    FOW / no FOW is something to be ferociously tested. As Elves will look for a T3 kill (T2 happens but very unfrequently), FOW might be mandatory.
    Any combination of Vial + Priest/ Canonist / MM (in this order) will usually put you in a very good spot.
    Chalice @ 1 will only soft lock your opponent until he can GSZ @ 3 for Sage.

    At last, Vial might not be fast enough (and a dead draw) and Elves might be treated as a combo deck against us (very much likely).
    Again the 3 configurations shall be tested (the last one being my preference).


    Sneak

    -2 Syphon Sliver
    -2 Muscle Sliver
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -3 Crystalline Sliver
    -1 Hibernation Sliver
    -1 Predatory Sliver
    -1 Sliver Hive

    +2 Harmonic Sliver
    +2 Containment Priest
    +2 Ethersworn Canonist
    +1 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Meddling Mage
    +2 Echoing Truth

    Pretty much self explanatory. You turn into a hatebear deck.
    Hibernation should be better than Crystalline as you can chump block/attack into a resolved Griselbrand and bounce back the blocked or blocker sliver.
    Numbers might have to be tweaked anyway.

    Here again Vial has to be assessed. Whether we should cut it or not can only be decided after a good bunch of tests.
    If Vial + Image is a deciding factor for winning a game, then Vial it is.


    Temur Delver

    -4 Force of Will
    -1 Hibernation Sliver

    +1 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Faerie Macabre
    +2 Echoing Truth

    Here again pretty much self explanatory.
    Null Rod / Pithing / Rough & Tumble could be really bad against us (vial).
    RIP might be better than Macabre.


    Sultai Delver

    -4 Force of Will
    -1 Hibernation Sliver

    +1 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Faerie Macabre
    +2 Echoing Truth

    Same as RUG.


    Jund

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Aether Vial
    -1 Winged Sliver

    +2 Faerie Macabre
    +2 Echoing Truth
    +2 Thorn of Amethyst

    Chalice is not as strong here because Jund's curve is disparate. Thorn is tremendous.
    I like keeping Image (to be tested), here as copying a Bob / Lord (with Crystalline in play) forces your opponent to act.
    If Image reveals to be bad, cut it and put back some Vial.

    The only things you should be aware of are Liliana & Toxic.
    Punishing Fire can be a nightmare if you don't have a crystalline.

    If you resolve a Crystalline, the MU should be in your favor.

    RIP is definitely better than Faerie Macabre, here.


    Shardless

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Aether Vial
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -1 Crystalline Sliver

    +2 Faerie Macabre
    +2 Echoing Truth
    +2 Thorn of Amethyst
    +1 Harmonic sliver

    Same as Jund.
    I like to put a Harmonic here as you'll get to kill some Shardless, Library etc...


    Miracle

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -4 Galerider Sliver
    -2 Syphon Sliver
    -2 Sliver Hive

    +2 Ethersworn canonist
    +2 Meddling Mage
    +1 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Thorn of Amethyst
    +2 Echoing Truth
    +2 Harmonic Sliver

    Difficult MU.
    If you see a chalice G1, you should be in a good spot.
    If not the game is in Miracle's favor.

    G2 and G3, you turn into a hatebear deck. Watch out for Snapcaster flash block.
    Galerider forces you to overextend without presenting much of a clock, so it gets cut (even if I get that you could survive an angel attack with some in the deck)
    Numbers might have to be tweaked if you want to keep some Galerider in the deck.

    Try to copy your Mutavault.
    Merfolk MU is better against Miracle because of the "Islandwalk" thing (no block from snap, clique etc...)


    Death &Taxes

    -2 Chalice of the Void
    -2 FOW

    +2 Harmonic Sliver
    +2 Echoing Truth

    Chalice is bad against D & T (like Jund/Shardless).
    FOW is not really where you want to be, save Cataclysme

    If they keep Revoker in and side out Vial, I would repack the 4 FOW. Targetting Vial with Revoker might be their best play (and the one you might want to FOW) as their tax should be enough to kill you.
    The rest is pretty common. Just drop Slivers and overrun the white army. Hibernation is king at keeping equipped creatures @ bay.


    MUD

    -3 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Syphon Sliver
    -3 Crystalline Sliver

    +2 Containment Priest
    +2 Echoing Truth
    +2 Harmonic Sliver
    +2 Meddling Mage

    - Chalice is bad against MUD.
    - Syphon is not needed because usually you'll be ahead.
    - Crystalline is not needed because they have nearly 0 targetted removal.

    + Containment Priest (Mess with Forgemaster)
    + Echoing Truth (tempo gain, whatever)
    + Harmonic is king against artifact decks
    + Meddling Mage can name whatever kills you (Be it a huge bomb or a planeswalker)


    Infect

    -2 Syphon Sliver
    -3 Crystalline Sliver
    -2 Muscle Sliver
    -4 Predatory Sliver
    -1 Sliver Hive

    +1 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Meddling Mage
    +2 Thorn of Amethyst
    +2 Ethersworn Canonist
    +2 Echoing Truth
    +2 Harmonic Sliver
    +1 Faerie Macabre

    Harmonic Sliver can kill a nexus if vialed in.


    Reanimator

    -2 Crystalline Sliver
    -2 Sliver Hive
    -4 Predatory Sliver
    -2 Muscle Sliver
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -2 Syphon Sliver

    +2 Faerie Macabre
    +1 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Ethersworn Canonist
    +2 Containment Priest
    +2 Thorn of Amethyst
    +2 Harmonic Sliver
    +2 Echoing Truth

    Here again Vial has to be assessed (If Vial + Image help to turn the MU).


    **********************************************

    Some difficult choices have been made, here, and few might be wrong.
    Let's discuss and test !

    To be continued (I'll add some other MU). Here are some foods for thoughts:

    1) RIP might be mandatory. Faerie is pretty cheap against tempo and midrange decks. But this has to be tested before drawing any kind of conclusion.
    2) I'm still not happy with Meddling Mage. Maybe Leonin Arbiter OR Suppression Field is the way to go.
    Last edited by Ralf; 12-12-2015 at 08:31 PM.

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Nice. Thanks, Ralf. I'm going to study this in depth later. Just off the cuff, though, what about Phyrexian Revoker as an alternative to Meddling Mage? A somewhat narrow card, I know, but it seems more useful than Meddling Mage at least. Not to mention easier to cast. Against Elves, for example, it hits Wirewood Symbiote and various other pieces. Against Sneak and Show, it hits Sneak Attack and Griselbrand. Against Miracle, it hits Top. And so on.

    Also, I think there needs to be some nuance to sideboarding strategy based on whether you're on the play or on the draw, especially in regards to the Chalices. As just one example, I would probably side Chalices out against Sneak and Show when on the draw. Chalice is only so-so against them to begin with.
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    So, as promised:

    Elves

    -4 Hibernation Sliver
    -4 Force of Will
    -1 Winged Sliver

    2 Containment Priest
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Chalice of the Void
    2 Meddling Mage
    2 Echoing Truth


    Sneak

    -2 Syphon Sliver
    -2 Muscle Sliver
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -3 Crystalline Sliver
    -1 Hibernation Sliver
    -2 Predatory Sliver

    2 Harmonic Sliver
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Chalice of the Void
    2 Meddling Mage
    2 Echoing Truth


    Temur Delver

    -4 Force of Will
    -1 Hibernation Sliver

    1 Chalice of the Void
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Echoing Truth


    Sultai Delver

    -4 Force of Will
    -1 Hibernation Sliver

    1 Chalice of the Void
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Echoing Truth


    Jund

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Aether Vial
    -1 Winged Sliver

    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Thorn of Amethyst


    Shardless

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Aether Vial
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -1 Crystalline Sliver

    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Harmonic sliver


    Miracle

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -4 Galerider Sliver
    -2 Syphon Sliver
    -2 Sliver Hive

    2 Ethersworn canonist
    2 Meddling Mage
    1 Chalice of the Void
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Harmonic Sliver

    Some difficult choices have been made (Siding out FOW against Elves for example).
    Let's discuss !

    To be continued (I'll add some other MU). Here are some foods for thoughts:

    1) RIP might be mandatory. Faerie is pretty cheap against tempo and midrange decks. But this has to be tested before drawing any kind of conclusion.
    2) I'm still not happy with Meddling Mage. Maybe Leonin Arbiter OR Suppression Field is the way to go.
    Thanks Ralf.

    I take your SB as a basis for the following. I would add (for MUs I face a lot in my meta)

    Death and Taxes

    OTD

    - 3 Chalice

    + 2 Harmonic
    + 1 Echoing Truth

    OTP

    - 2 Phantasmal Image
    + 2 Harmonic

    MUD

    I face a lot of MUD in my meta. That's why I like to have minimum 3 Harmonic (also useful vs the many D&T)

    OTD

    - 3 Chalice
    - 1 Crystalline

    + 2 Harmonic
    + 2 Meddling Mage (or Phyrexian Revoker) mainly for Ugin

    OTP

    - 4 Crystalline
    + 2 Harmonic
    + 2 Phyrexian Revoker (or MM)

    For the rest I think Elves is a very tough matchup.

    And for all the matchups you posted maybe yes RIP would be a better choice.

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultrab77 View Post
    Thanks Ralf.

    I take your SB as a basis for the following. I would add (for MUs I face a lot in my meta)
    Those sideboard tables exist only to be tested and further improved.

    For example, I have no idea if cutting the FOW against Elves is the right way to go. But alas we don't have enough blue to support them.

    Also before splitting OTP/OTD, I think you should rather try to come up and fix these tables before making any adjustment.

    I'll update my previous post with some sideboard explanations + new MU.

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    So, I thought I'd take a break from the discussion on perfecting the Chalice Slivers list and share a couple other lists I've been tinkering with. [...]
    I'd have to test these lists before trying them out. But why a 3:2 Split of Galerider and Winged Sliver? Isn't Galerider universally better? Or do you do this because of Vial?
    Leeching Sliver is not bad... But I have my doubts if it's good enough in Legacy. I used it as a SB Card in Modern Slivers against Decks with infinite Creatures. It's more like pseudo-evasion than a lord. And, of course, it works best with Vigilance (Sentinel Sliver) and Regeneration (Sedge Sliver), both cards we don't (and shouldn't) play in Legacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Sure, let's keep talking about Storm as our approach is different.


    1) Against Fast Combo deck, I don't try to win fast. I am rather playing the control role here.

    That's why I like, the hatebear approach, better. Sure, a bunch of 2/2 is not a very impressive clock but 2 of them is already 4 lifes per turn, etc...
    Losing "Lords" is not very important as long as I prevent my opponent from winning.
    I've talked to some people about my boarding plans against Storm, and while cutting Vial really hurts, I've come to the conclusion that your approach is the right one. Cutting Vials leaves me with enough Blue to reliably cast FoW and enough Slivers to still pose a Threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Jund

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Aether Vial
    -1 Winged Sliver

    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Thorn of Amethyst


    Shardless

    -2 Force of Will
    -1 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Aether Vial
    -1 Winged Sliver
    -1 Crystalline Sliver

    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Harmonic sliver
    I see - so your plan against Liliana Decks is cutting some Vials to reduce dead draws? Because I haven't played Slivers for that long, I'm bringing examples from Decks I'm more familiar with: In Death and Taxes, every game without Vial against Jund was already a lost one. In Merfolk, an active Vial helped like nothing else in pressuring Liliana.
    I agree in Vial being a dead topdeck, but I see cutting only 1 as the better choice, so to still have a bigger chance to have one in your opening 7.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ultrab77 View Post
    MUD
    [...]
    OTP

    - 4 Crystalline
    + 2 Harmonic
    + 2 Phyrexian Revoker (or MM)
    Why would you cut no Chalices against MUD otp? Do you want to lay it turn 1 @0 to disrupt their Mox Opal, if they play any? Because otherwise I see no reason to leave Chalice in, at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Those sideboard tables exist only to be tested and further improved.
    [...]
    Also before splitting OTP/OTD, I think you should rather try to come up and fix these tables before making any adjustment.
    Well, let's see if we have an equal working ground on those sideboard tables.

    So the three of us (Ralf, Ultrab77 and me) are starting from 4color Slivers with 1 Winged, 2 Lifegain Slivers, a number of Images, 3 Chalice and 21 Lands.

    Our Sideboards are roughly:
    2-3 Harmonic
    2 Grave Hate
    1 Chalice
    2 Echoing Truth
    6 to 8 other Slots dedicated to Combo Decks, mainly storm

    Letting the differences in our individual card choices aside, this gives at least a rough number of the amount of cards to bring in in certain Matchups. So the real work here would to locate the worst cards in the Main Deck in the given MUs to know what to take out.

    For better communication about the individual Matchups (as we're still a bit all over the place in this forum) I suggest we open a Facebook group, where all of those who want to give some input in Slivers can discuss their views on certain cards and other Stuff, while we can keep it a bit clearer to see and easier to focus on single MUs in single "comment chats".
    Who's in for this?

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Khamul View Post
    Letting the differences in our individual card choices aside, this gives at least a rough number of the amount of cards to bring in in certain Matchups. So the real work here would to locate the worst cards in the Main Deck in the given MUs to know what to take out.

    For better communication about the individual Matchups (as we're still a bit all over the place in this forum) I suggest we open a Facebook group, where all of those who want to give some input in Slivers can discuss their views on certain cards and other Stuff, while we can keep it a bit clearer to see and easier to focus on single MUs in single "comment chats".
    Who's in for this?
    I've updated the sideboard strategy with some explanations and corrections.
    I don't know if I can give a hand on the FB thing since I'm not a FB user but well, if I manage to understand how it works, sure !

    Interesting point about Jund:
    You are keeping Vial in where I suggest to cut some.

    I have played Jund vs D&T a large number of times and, my friends and I, came to the conclusion that Vial is not that much needed against Jund.
    1) You are likely to face Vial hate
    2) Vial is a dead draw as you correctly stated.
    3) You cannot equip a vial onto an equipment (whereas any kind of threat can be equipped)

    Slivers is not D&T (since we don't play any SFM package) and you might be more than correct thinking that we should keep Vial in.
    To be tested !

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    @ Thread

    The more I think about it, the more Suppression Field appears to be a hell of a deal (my version wise speaking, obviously) as a sideboard card (replacing the 2 Meddling Mage).

    It annihilates fetches, DRS, opposing activated abilities while being just a hindrance to vial.

    EDIT: 12 sideboard strats posted above !
    Last edited by Ralf; 12-11-2015 at 08:53 AM.

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    The more I think about it, the more Suppression Field appears to be a hell of a deal (my version wise speaking, obviously) as a sideboard card (replacing the 2 Meddling Mage).

    It annihilates fetches, DRS, opposing activated abilities while being just a hindrance to vial.
    Hm. Also hits your Mutavaults, as well as the "return to hand" ability from Hibernation Sliver. Is shutting off opponent fetchlands worth it? I can see it randomly winning games, but seems a bit dicey to me.

    The one I keep looking at is Cursed Totem. Shuts off the Elves deck, Griselbrand, DRS, various D&T creatures, and more.
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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    Hm. Also hits your Mutavaults, as well as the "return to hand" ability from Hibernation Sliver. Is shutting off opponent fetchlands worth it? I can see it randomly winning games, but seems a bit dicey to me.

    The one I keep looking at is Cursed Totem. Shuts off the Elves deck, Griselbrand, DRS, various D&T creatures, and more.
    elves should be able to green sun into the come into play kill artifact/enchantment guy, but i can see cursed totem stealing some games. you can probably win the fair game vs elves, so just keep them off of natural order (or use containment priest) and it's probably okay. i haven't tested the matchup, so i may be completely off.

    if the worries are combo, i'd probably recommend running thorn of amethyst. is death and taxes a problem? i might consider a first strike sliver vs them. if sneak and show is the problem, most decks that don't have great answers usually just sb ashen rider.
    -rob

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Basically I'm searching a replacement to Meddling Mage.
    Here are the options:
    - Leonin arbiter (not a very good top deck)
    - Suppression field (hindrance for us as well but to what extend, if it is game on our side, poor top deck ?)
    - Root maze (yeah hell of a card but really poor top deck)

    Do you think of anything else valuable (I prefer something with a wide application and not a narrow one)?

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    Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    Hm. Also hits your Mutavaults, as well as the "return to hand" ability from Hibernation Sliver. Is shutting off opponent fetchlands worth it? I can see it randomly winning games, but seems a bit dicey to me.

    The one I keep looking at is Cursed Totem. Shuts off the Elves deck, Griselbrand, DRS, various D&T creatures, and more.
    Well it is far more than that:
    - Elves
    - Jund
    - Shardless
    - D&T
    - Miracle
    - Combo decks

    Sure the card is really powerful on T2 and could be a dead draw midgame.
    But the more you are looking for game breaker cards the more you are searching for diversity.

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