That's correct regarding Phantasmal Image and the timing of Show and Tell. You would have to play it or vial it in afterward. I'm not sure if the matchup warrants devoting slots to Gilded Drake, though.Originally Posted by Chronatog
It's all good, Ralf. My thinking goes along these lines. As a one-of, Karakas can be tacked onto whatever package of sideboard cards you bring in to counter decks that like to cheat legendary creatures into play. It isn't an absolute solution by itself, particularly against Griselbrand, but it's certainly another nuisance your opponent has to deal with. Also, not to be overlooked is the fact that it's another source of condition-free white mana for casting RiP and/or hatebears from the sideboard, as needed.
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Jean but i planed to bring it with the vial, imagine he would play Sneak attack with the Show and tell, my Image would be senseless.
Hi all,
I run this list at this moment on cockatrice :
4 Aether Vial
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Heart Sliver
3 Diffusion Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Harmonic Sliver
3 Containment Priest
And I have been very happy with its results. I think Sliver is at least a 2.5 tiers. I play it a lot. Yesterday, I won versus Miracles, Storm, Junk, Faeries, Grixies Delver and lost versus Tin Fins and Burn. Believe me that Sliver is a strong deck.
I can explain my list's choices if anyone want. I'm just not sure about the Diffusion Sliver.
Sorry for my english.
Could you explain these choises? I understand that you want backup for Galerider, but isn't 3 Winged too much? Also, why not Collected Company instead of Stampede?
Hi Darklingske,
After one year of testing, it appears to me that 7 flying sliver are the right number. This is the sliver you always want, the more important. It's like islandwalk in merfolk : 8 aren't too much. And often the games that I lose are those one I can't fly above a tarmo or else. You absolutely want your slivers to be unblockable, because each deck can put a bigger creature than yours.
Collected Company costs 4, make card advantage of 2 and isn't synergic with vial. Lead costs 3, make a CA of 3 or 4 most of the time and is perfect with vial. Choice is made.
I think Hibernation Sliver is better than Diffusion Sliver.
Collected company seems sweet in this deck. Maybe as a two of. It can be used as a battle trick to put instant speed slivers on the field. Why hasn't anyone else mentioned it?
I am a magic player on the whole who got in around the time of Journey to Nyx after a very very brief foray into magic around Onslaught/Mirrodin. I am currently playing a Gbw Modern Lead/Messenger/Company deck and looking to purchase modern Slivers. How this relates to legacy is that I am interested in Legacy as one of my friends play it and it seems very different from Modern especially since I love casting creature and turning them sideways to win. So, I have been looking at a Legacy deck to test the waters like I did with modern which was a RG budget Shamans deck. I found Legacy has Slivers and it looks like overall to be a cheaper and better conversion to legacy then the Collected Company Elf deck. I have looked at Elves and is very expensive, the fact that it doesn't play with other decks isn't really that relavant to me at this time. This is a budget Countersliver deck I think, how would it do since it is based off of that small tourney win on MTG top 8
The Deck that is a starting off point
Lands
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Mana Confluence
Creatures
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Hunter Sliver
3 Hibernation lsiver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Manaweft Sliver
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
Sideboard
3 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Hibernation Sliver
1 Hunter Sliver
3 Meddling Mage
2 Pything Needle
1 Syphon Sliver
What do you think for a Budget List?
That looks pretty solid for a budget list, worldsaverinc. Of course, a few of those cards aren't really "budget," but if you got em, play em. I do have a few comments. First, you might find those Phantasmal Images difficult to cast at times, as you really only have 8 lands for them (I'm excluding Caverns from that count, since you will rarely be happy about naming "Illusion" when you drop one). Also, you might find you need some Winged Slivers to complement those Galeriders. And, finally, your blue count is dangerously low for Force of Will. I'd try to get it up to at least 16. Good luck!
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Hi Hataraxy,
I have a few comments about your list.
1. Hibernation Sliver is in my opinion our 2nd best sliver (maybe the best) for Miracles, Lands, Goyf matchups. Definitly remove Diffusion.
2. I know Lead the Stampede is a must in Modern decks like Elves but in Legacy the card advantage seems relevant only vs BUG decks. Maybe some countermagic would be more adapted in this spot (Fow, CotV) since you already have more than 30 creatures
3. How is Heart Sliver working? With only 4 cavern and Vial to cast it?
4. Your SB seems very Storm targeted, can you develop a bit your plan? I'm more thinking about my SB now since I feel comfortable with my MB Chalice plan
I totally agree that Hibernation is better than Diffusion, it was a mistake.
LTS is a very good card against midrange and control, is ok against aggro and a pretty one against combo and tempo. I tried chalice in this slot and it was fine as good as LTS. It might be a solution too, but the thing is that chalice slows our aggro in being casted turn 2 in place of a sliver. Force seems to me weaker because we have not 40 blue cards as merfolks, and most of the time one force in a game isn't enough to stop a combo or another key card.
Heart sliver isn't a problem for me, I always cast it. But if we play Hibernation and add Black to our mana pool, I think that Leeching is better than Heart because playing 5 colors is still a hard thing.
The sideboard against combo :
Canonist and chalice against storm, elves, high tide, omnitell, burn.
Priest against dredge, reanimator, elves, sneak show
I was hesitating between : meddling mage, thalia, canonist, spirit and gaddock, but canonist seems the better one against all combos.
Do you guys prefer the brainstorm version or the chalice version better?
In the chalice version, do you guys run fetchlands? I noticed on the primer that chalice slivers doesn't but in may of the lists here you guys do use them.
Is there anyway to get get advantage here? Glimpse of nature? Has anyone tried collected company? It just seems that once we run our hand out, we are out of gas and at the mercy of topdecking.
I prefer Brainstorm to Chalice myself, just because there are matchups where Chalice is basically dead. Also, tapping out on turn 2 for Chalice, only to have it countered, is such a huge tempo loss. But I still consider Chalice Slivers to be experimental at this time, and other contributors in this thread might want to argue in favor of Chalice over Brainstorm. As for running fetchlands with Chalice, there's nothing terribly wrong with that. The fetchless list in the primer is simply an attempt to reduce exposure to Stifle. As for card advantage, you can try things like Sylvan Library, Standstill, etc, but really, this is a deck that is built more around the idea of virtual card advantage than actual card advantage.
On another note, I've been tinkering with an Esper list lately, with a simplified manabase, and more cantrips, removal, and countermagic. Down side: It's a bit toothless. You can check out the Esper list in the primer, if you're curious. It's a work in progress.
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I think the sylvan library or standstill can work, but i gues them being countered would also be a huge tempo loss as well? Have you Tried CoCo?
I checked out the Esper list, not enough slivers for me, and at that point I would just rather play a stoneblade deck.
I keep posting something to this effect, so maybe I'm sounding like a broken record. It's useful to keep in mind though:
Slivers is a case study in card slot efficiency. Spell-heavy aggro-control decks like Team America and Delver often only play a dozen creature threats, but they're individually powerful in efficiency (Goyf/Delver), size (Goyf/Angler), evasion (TNN/Delver), card advantage (Bob/Clique/Snapcaster/Stoneforge), or width (Pyromancer/Mentor). Many actually boast several of these benefits. Legacy creatures are good enough that fielding any 1-2 should be enough for a quick win when backed with protective and disruptive spells.
With that in mind, a proposal to commit more slots must be strongly justified if a deck is to be effective. Existing examples include the combo-like Elves and Goblins, Death and Taxes where the creatures slow you down as they kill you, and the multiple-angle Merfolk that can win via size or evasion.
My concern with Slivers has been, and continues to be, the fact that you need a lot of them for it to make sense, both in the deck and on the battlefield. I'm not surprised that you want to add spells for more utility. At the same time, I'm not surprised that adding those spells weakens the army in important ways. It comes down to how Slivers work, and how that reality intersects with the idea of card slot efficiency.
Enough on the theory side, now to actual matchups:
How does the Brainstorm strategy deal with unfair decks? A big reason why Merfolk went to Chalice is because it can only afford to run about 12 interactive/disruptive cards (Jitte/Dismember/Clique/FoW/etc) with negligible library manipulation. Its spell options simply can't stand toe-to-toe with decks bristling with library manipulation and disruption, so it salts the earth with Chalice instead.
Similarly, I had thought that Chalice would be the only way Slivers could hope to compete with the established unfair archetypes. The alternative would seem like it would result in matches like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJQXA7yoVM8 Hope springs eternal for non-Chalice builds though, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
Last edited by Curby; 01-08-2016 at 11:35 AM.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
How about Warping Wail in Slivers ?
Yep, with my build I have 9 sources for <> (4 Cavern, 2 Hives, 3 Mutavaults) and therefore 70% to have one source in the first 7, 75% after 1 draw and 83% after 2 draws.
On Merfolk topic a comment suggested the card as an answer for the following:
Delver: kills DRS, delver, pyromancer, counter hymn
Shardless BUG: kills DRS, stryx, counter hymn and visions
D&T: kills MoR, Thalia, SFM, Flickerwisp
Elves: kill elves and counters GSZ/NO
Storm: counters infernal tutor, discard and PiF
Miracles: kills clique, snapcaster, counters Terminus/council judgement
Lands: counters Loam, Gamble
Painter: kills painter
Reanimator: counters reanimate, exhume, discard
I play 2 Echoing Truth MD now but I could consider switching for WW.
Ralf,
Why would you board in Faerie vs Delver? For Angler? For DRS?
Actually, it is up to you.
Against ultra fast tempo (RUG) it might be incorrect to side out all FOW if you are dying with many cards in hand.
Faerie, here, is weak (compared to RIP for example) but if you cut FOW, I think it is the "less" bad card you have access to as it can sometimes do some nasty tricks (shrinking goose, goyf, or preventing food for DRS).
The sideboard tables I have proposed have to be tested (and eventually tweaked).
The more you play the deck, the more sideboarding choices will appear crystal clear.
Once you have playtested against an archetype, just give us your feeling and what has or not worked for you and how you have improved the said MU (for example).
OK I was wondering if there was a special plan or trick that I had not thought of.
VS RUG I wouldn't cut all my FOW to be able protect a T2 Chalice which can just destroy them.
Maybe +2 RIP +2 Needle (Wasteland)
-2 FOW -2 Muscle
I will take my slivers on Saturday to the LGS monthly event (20 to 30 players expected).
After I got stuck with two fetches and no possibility to cast all my slivers I also decided to include a Scrubland.
Creatures (28):
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells (11):
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
Lands (21):
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
Sideboard (15):
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Surgical extraction
1 Containment Priest
I was hesitating with
- 2 muscle
- 1 winged
+ 3 Daze
Also Syphon vs Darkheart is a question. I feel Syphon is better for late races vs BUG or D&T while Darkheart could be better vs Burn or Storm.
I expect to run into several D&T, Elves, Miracles and then Goblins, Lands, BUG, Sneak&Show, Dredge. Maybe Storm.
Have you guys been testing further this deck? My results online have not been that good those last days so I'm still hesitating to run Burn but it's less fun.
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