Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

[the Thin White Duke]

So they would need just to include some restriction on use that means they are not functionally identical.

One thing I could think of, though I know Wizards would never go for, would be to link your DCI # and your MTGO account. Then setup a mechanism where you can obtain usable proxies (in events that allow them, not necessarily all events) that are linked to your DCI # and an not be used by anyone else, with the restriction that the proxies have to be of cards in your MTGO account, and those cards then becomes locked on your account so you (at least) can not trade them.
set up properly, and refined it could even let Wizards make money of Legacy and Vintage, though there would be some issues that need to be resolved, likely needing to be 1 set at a time, or in specific sized blocks of cards, with no sets that are currently being physically sold/in standard being available for proxies.

Too much thinking involved, easier for Wiazrds to sue!!

[Richard Cheese]

Our local shop called Wizards today to clarify this. They were told that no proxies were allowed anywhere in the shop, even for casual play, and the shop's status as a WPN member would be threatened by the use of proxies in the store. This has an excellent chance of killing Legacy at our shop, and a reasonable chance of killing Modern as well.

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.

Why? Why should I beg some company to stop making increasingly stupid decisions? I'm just going to play less Magic and more board games and look into other hobbies that will let me meet some new people. The core of the game is still fun, but it's just not worth getting worked up over.

[thecrav]

Trick Jarret replied on Reddit (Screenshot)

tl;dr: What we call "proxies" are actually counterfeits and everyone knows counterfeits aren't allowed.

[Octopusman]

Our local shop called Wizards today to clarify this. They were told that no proxies were allowed anywhere in the shop, even for casual play, and the shop's status as a WPN member would be threatened by the use of proxies in the store. This has an excellent chance of killing Legacy at our shop, and a reasonable chance of killing Modern as well.

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.

Okay, I'll bite and call.

To be honest though, as someone who worked in customer service for many years, this isn't likely to do much. However, people always freak out when you call out a founder or CEO on social media.

I've already emailed the CEO of Hasbro. I suggest you all do the same.

I can understand collectors getting upset with reprints devaluing their cards (if they will), but I can't wrap my head around retailers being against it considering they will likely move a ton of the new product and likely make even more money off of the increased player base who can now afford the reprints and eternal players like myself who rarely give the company money since I buy almost exclusively on the secondary market.

[Barook]

So they would need just to include some restriction on use that means they are not functionally identical.

One thing I could think of, though I know Wizards would never go for, would be to link your DCI # and your MTGO account. Then setup a mechanism where you can obtain usable proxies (in events that allow them, not necessarily all events) that are linked to your DCI # and an not be used by anyone else, with the restriction that the proxies have to be of cards in your MTGO account, and those cards then becomes locked on your account so you (at least) can not trade them.
set up properly, and refined it could even let Wizards make money of Legacy and Vintage, though there would be some issues that need to be resolved, likely needing to be 1 set at a time, or in specific sized blocks of cards, with no sets that are currently being physically sold/in standard being available for proxies.

MTGO is just an afterthought that makes them shittons of cash while being a turd. Sad, but true. They don't even want to promote MTGO since they see it as threat to their paper distribution base, the LGS (kinda ironic that they now explicitely shit on said LGS with the enforced proxy policy).

Besides, Wizards introduced promo codes to get cards on MTGO. Have they used it for cross-over promotion? Nope, they haven't touched it since 2013.

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.

Sounds like your forum name says it all. The guy on the other end isn't responsible and I don't see what he could change. Wizards can't go really go out and say "Proxies are a-OK" since that could potentially open the floodgates.

If anything, it would make more sense summarize a number of complaints (about MTGO, WotC's consumer-hostile practices, etc.), deliver a copy & paste version and E-mail Hasbro by the thousands. Which might be very effective if they fail to meet their Q4 earning expectations, depending on the wording. Main problem I see is actually getting the right E-Mail address since Hasbro's homepage is a nightmare to navigate.

Edit: @Octopusman: What's the E-Mail address of said CEO? But before we all spam him with widespread bile, I'd love to collect points to make suggestions that actually improve the game and raise awareness of Wizards' bullshit.

[Octopusman]

MTGO is just an afterthought that makes them shittons of cash while being a turd. Sad, but true. They don't even want to promote MTGO since they see it as threat to their paper distribution base, the LGS (kinda ironic that they now explicitely shit on said LGS with the enforced proxy policy).

Besides, Wizards introduced promo codes to get cards on MTGO. Have they used it for cross-over promotion? Nope, they haven't touched it since 2013.


Sounds like your forum name says it all. The guy on the other end isn't responsible and I don't see what he could change. Wizards can't go really go out and say "Proxies are a-OK" since that could potentially open the floodgates.

If anything, it would make more sense summarize a number of complaints (about MTGO, WotC's consumer-hostile practices, etc.), deliver a copy & paste version and E-mail Hasbro by the thousands. Which might be very effective if they fail to meet their Q4 earning expectations, depending on the wording. Main problem I see is actually getting the right E-Mail address since Hasbro's homepage is a nightmare to navigate.

Edit: @Octopusman: What's the E-Mail address of said CEO? But before we all spam him with widespread bile, I'd love to collect points to make suggestions that actually improve the game and raise awareness of Wizards' bullshit.

Easily Googlable but PM'ed.

[AngryTroll]

Sounds like your forum name says it all. The guy on the other end isn't responsible and I don't see what he could change. Wizards can't go really go out and say "Proxies are a-OK" since that could potentially open the floodgates.

If anything, it would make more sense summarize a number of complaints (about MTGO, WotC's consumer-hostile practices, etc.), deliver a copy & paste version and E-mail Hasbro by the thousands. Which might be very effective if they fail to meet their Q4 earning expectations, depending on the wording. Main problem I see is actually getting the right E-Mail address since Hasbro's homepage is a nightmare to navigate.

I know the guy at the other end of the line can't do anything except note my call, but a bunch of calls being noted does get passed on up the line. It can't hurt. Be polite and nice about it, but let them know that you aren't happy about a specific policy.

[iatee]

Oh come on you guys, you really think Wizards cares about a bunch of legacy players who barely buy product anyway bothering their customer support people? You think the CEO of Hasbro, hearing that the IP of one of their big $ properties is being infringed, will be like "Dear lord, what will happen to the proxy Vintage scene??"

If you want to protest this do it by organizing more proxy tournaments outside of stores, not by bothering a bunch of people who really, really, really don't care.

Wizards can make decisions using sound business reasoning which are nevertheless bad for eternal magic.

[jrsthethird]

I realize fringe format is fringe, but don't most 93/94 events allow Collector's Edition as playable cards?

Also WCD cards are common stand-ins for EDH. I don't think Wizards is intentionally cracking down on these, but by their current policy on proxies these are collateral damage.

Actually Legacy and Vintage player pool with this policy will be just off hands from WotC. Simple as that - if they can't support those formats with reprints, they forbid replacement, so someone will just invest some money to create alternative DCI where proxies will be allowed - who doesn't want 10,000+ player base which could pay some minor price for "new sanctioning".

With so many Chinese counterfeit available game will stop being trade-able and became normal card game where you can mix new cards from WotC and old cards which would be proxies. Market doesn't like empty space. Paper have its durability even sleeved and protected, original old cards have already absurd prices to be played - would you use Alpha Black Lotus for tournament when each shuffling mean -100 Euro (at least) on its value ? Those times will come sooner or later with other Legacy and Vintage cards, thanks to "great" printing policy. And so strict policy about proxies won't stop it.

Unfortunately this alternative sanctioning organization would still need a place to hold events. WPN stores will not rent out events to an alternative organization; you'll have to hold all your events in basements/banquet halls/sex dungeons.

[Barook]

you'll have to hold all your events in basements/banquet halls/sex dungeons.

Liliana's Sex Dungeon Series? Sounds like a plan. Just make sure you don't plow the wrong Mom.

Technically, couldn't Hasbro's legal team crack down on alternative tournament organizations?

[thecrav]

Unfortunately this alternative sanctioning organization would still need a place to hold events. WPN stores will not rent out events to an alternative organization; you'll have to hold all your events in basements/banquet halls/sex dungeons.

Not that I think anyone will go to this effort but for stores that own their buildings

Physical building owned by Building, Inc
Building, Inc leases space to Store, Inc
Occasionally, Building, Inc allows some random people to play with cards that have sharpie on them.

The space isn't "the store." "The store" simply occupies the same area as the place people are playing.

Before someone points out that this is a dumb loophole that WotC will call you on, this is more or less how stores are able to get away with selling alcohol which is against the WPN agreement - the booze is sold by a separate entity than the game store.

[Barook]

Brian Kibler found something rather hilarious:

https://twitter.com/BasicMountain/st...31265070272512
https://twitter.com/bmkibler/status/687130213960957953

Just this Monday, they promoted a (paywalled) SCG video on their official homepage with proxies. The irony is off the charts.

[Claymore1]

I really love this format, I hope I'll still have people to play.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Another thing.

Holiday/Vintage CUBE draft!

Alot of stores run this things (knowing that WotC is against it). Well know alot more people know how "illegal" this is and its way more likely to get reported :(

Haha ill just gonna aks my LGS to buy the REAL CUBE. What is it 15k 20k 40k?

[Quasim0ff]

I seriously didn't think any1 here played proxy tournaments, anyhow..

[Dice_Box]

I seriously didn't think any1 here played proxy tournaments, anyhow..

Even if true, we are not happy that Wizards would hurt those less fortunate than ourselves.

[Quasim0ff]

Even if true, we are not happy that Wizards would hurt those less fortunate than ourselves.

That's obvious.

I just think this highly understandable, from Wizards PoV. Obviously it's sad, but this isn't the sky falling or any formats dying. Vintage FNM was hardly a thing, and legacy proxy tournaments didn't really happen, I think?

[lordofthepit]

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.

Username checks out!

[Havrekjex]

legacy proxy tournaments didn't really happen, I think?

That`s wrong. Lots of stores everywhere hold unsanctioned Legacy events that allow a small number of proxies, 10 being the most common one as far as I know, so that people still need to commit to a deck and build most of it, they just get to pass on a few of the most expensive cards, often the duals. Some of these stores also hold no-proxy events, and the proxy events act as a gateway to the format for players that want to give it a spin before they spend $1000 on duals. Now they can`t, which means that people will play less Legacy in these places, which will hurt the format.

Not to mention that the most paranoid stores might actually stop players from using proxies in casual games. If WotC gets their way, I can`t meet a friend at a LGS to casually playtest two decks against each other using proxies before I decide to actually build the deck. We need to take that underground. Not to mention that EDH players can`t use proxies for stuff like blue duals, which is a pretty common practice where I live, not because they don`t own the card, but because they don`t feel like bringing $250 cards to casual games. It`s not likely to be enforced at that level, but if that isn`t an attempted overreach on WotC`s part, I don`t know what is.

[snorlaxcom]

That's obvious.

I just think this highly understandable, from Wizards PoV. Obviously it's sad, but this isn't the sky falling or any formats dying. Vintage FNM was hardly a thing, and legacy proxy tournaments didn't really happen, I think?

In maryland more and more stores ran legacy proxy events as stores owners saw a market and a need for players to test out decks and move eternal product. These proxy events kept players coming back as store credit compiled and communities flourished with new players. The legacy scene is strong in the east in general, but has become so only because of these new players getting a taste of the format personally ether from a scg stream or watching a game in person. So sad many people were unable to play in this week's regularly scheduled legacy Tuesday. );

I find it very peculiar that my store in Gaithersburg was told to cease proxy legacy months ago and others stores in MD were still advertising proxy events up until now. I didn't say anything to the other stores because the owner of my local shop said WOTC contacted him directly, so I figured WOTC knew of the situation and had a problem with the way my store was promoting proxies.(?)