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Thread: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

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    Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    So without jumping to conclusions here, I'll just state the facts. Today, our local store apparently received phone and email contact from a Wizards Play Network representative regarding the regular full proxy Legacy events we run every Tuesday. To my knowledge, these events have been going for years and were never sanctioned through Wizards Event Reporter. The correspondence stated that regardless of whether an event is sanctioned, "Magic events... can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards." This essentially means that all stores with WPN sanctioning (any store that runs an FNM) can be threatened with having that sanctioning revoked by running any events allowing proxies in their store.

    Extrapolating here, so brace yourself for a bit of doomsaying. I think this has dire repercussions for Legacy and in particular Vintage. How many of you have local Legacy proxy events, or were perhaps even ushered into the format by these sorts of casual nonsanctioned tournaments? Vintage players, when was the last time besides Vintage champs you played sanctioned vintage? I think the health of the format declines significantly if there is no "soft" way to get into the format without directly spending thousands upfront. Standard is relatively easy to get into and you can succeed with budget options, Modern has a variety of successful budget decks as well that very easily build up into tier decks once you acquire staples, but Legacy has no alternative for duals, wastes, forces, and even worse you can have 90% of the cards in a deck and still owe a thousand or more on your manabase. Many people at these local events had Deathblade or Delver minus only the duals, or Death and Taxes minus Waste/Port/Karakas, they were not "budget players, they were Legacy players who hadn't acquired the priciest parts of their decks.

    For those who are curious, the original thread on facebook is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/4450...2954593792525/
    I don't know if that link works if you're not a Facebook group member but it might let you see the initial post.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Just a reminder that we have a thread on card prices. Talk of card prices will be removed.

    I don't like this myself. Brisbane has a vibrant Legacy and Vintage scene, we can run sanctioned events in both formats in this small city but Vintage is commonly played with Proxy open to all. It is also run by the community not a store, we just use the space in a store to play. We can move it elsewhere, but that's a pain we don't want or need.

    This is not something I would be happy to see take off. Older formats are fun and the prices right now are stable. Have a look at Modern and it's cost fluctuations and then Legacy. Legacy is much smarter to get into and it helps to be able to slowly build your deck over time.

    That said, if I hire space in a store out for a games night and run a Vintage event myself, with the store only accepting money for the space and time used, what can Wizards do then? All the store did was hire out space, I ran the event for a format I enjoy.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    EDH players need all those reserved list staples that are being "hoarded" by us Legacy players after all....

    I think this is a bad policy, and could affect more then just Legacy negatively, as this means people can not hold proxy practice events for any big prize events coming to their area that the players might still be building/deciding on their decks for. Modern is starting to each the point that it is beyond many players budgets to build, or where they can not afford to build a deck and not enjoy playing it . Only 1 deck in last weekends SCG top 8 was under $1000 to build (and another 4 in the next 8), and the average was a like $1386 for the top 8 ($1327 when expanded to the top 16) according to mtggoldfish.

    Wizards is probably afraid of proxy events spreading to other formats and negatively affecting sales...

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    The correspondence stated that regardless of whether an event is sanctioned, "Magic events... can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards." This essentially means that all stores with WPN sanctioning (any store that runs an FNM) can be threatened with having that sanctioning revoked by running any events allowing proxies in their store.https://www.facebook.com/groups/4450...2954593792525/
    I don't know if that link works if you're not a Facebook group member but it might let you see the initial post.
    In case the link dies:



    The post states that the ban is more thorough than you've stated.

    According to Wizards Play Network policy, *no* proxies are allowed at WPN-sanctioned venues, regardless of whether the event is sanctioned or not.
    That's... actually pretty insane. That's not just no proxy events. That's no proxy play testing. That's no proxy gold fishing. That's telling game stores that if you see someone with a magic card with sharpie on the back, they need to ask the player to leave or their ability to host DCI events and receive WotC product will be removed.

    Whether the correspondence (they said it was a phone call) actually said no proxies vs no proxy events is something only WotC and the store owner will know.

    I haven't seen the WPN agreement but based on some of the other recent drama in the Magic world, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this no proxy rule isn't included. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this?

    To be quite honest, I'm surprised after some recent events that someone hasn't started an independent sanctioning group. Actually... not all that surprised. So many Magic players hate the status quo but are too lazy to correct it.

    WotC's approval is only required for PlanesWalkerPoints, GPTs, PPTQs, buying product at wholesale, and being listed on WotC's site. Am I missing any other direct benefits to being a WPN store?
    Last edited by thecrav; 01-11-2016 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Stupid retina screen... fixed that ridiculously huge screenshot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  5. #5

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    There are going to be some seriously depressed EDH players at my LGS. I guess it's a good thing the RC has discussed "fixing" off-colored fetches to only allow them in decks corresponding to their colors.
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    It's like arguing your way out of a speeding ticket by saying "it's not like I'm wearing oven mitts, officer."
    Twenty Kavus and a Dream is NOT a Legacy deck.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcc13 View Post
    Wizards is probably afraid of proxy events spreading to other formats and negatively affecting sales...
    I doubt this is the case, no skin off their bones if someone proxies a bunch of underground seas as they don't print them, and proxy standard tournaments are unheard of (even if this standard is laughably expensive).

    I'm just going to assume that they are a bunch of hateful misers that despise joy and actively loathe the fans of its game and secretly are plotting our deaths.
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    How do you even begin to enforce this?

    I need to read more on this; there's such a signal-to-noise problem whenever Wizards does anything anymore. They're cracking down on meta reporting, allegedly upset over card leaks, they've been irked for years that things like MWS and Cockatrice exist, and now - now your LGS can lose its sanctioning privileges if ANY event can be found to entertain proxies. Proxies which, for all anyone knows, are just precursors to a sale.

    Like I said, I need to read more, but this is just flatly discouraging and feels like an overreaction to a practice that they can never fully control or moderate anyway.
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Every thread complaining about WotC gets locked but I'll go ahead and say it

    WotC is getting more and more anti-player and it seems to me that many of the problems that WotC itself has the power to fix. But instead of fixing them, they're punishing people for addressing the problem on their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  9. #9

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Last time I went to a prerelease, they had basics proxied for each other. Of course that was a while ago.

  10. #10

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    This thread has been cross posted to reddit (thanks Barook, I refuse to make a reddit account! Haha) and ongoing discussion taking place on the facebook group as well. I'm Brian Marx on there for anyone who didn't know me and wants to follow the discussion.

    I got into legacy through proxy events and the welcoming and generous atmosphere of a small local community in Maryland. I know for a fact I would have never become an active member of this community without that opportunity, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. A lot of the legacy players and content producers we know and love were born in these types of environments, and I fear that this is a real loss to the community.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Last time I went to a prerelease, they had basics proxied for each other. Of course that was a while ago.
    Sadly, that's not uncommon. Prerelease is the largest limited event most stores run and WotC no longer provides free packs of basics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    Every thread complaining about WotC gets locked
    I am interested in the developments of this situation and would like not to have this thread locked. I will keep an eye on it if things get out of hand.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    This thread has been cross posted to reddit (thanks Barook, I refuse to make a reddit account! Haha) and ongoing discussion taking place on the facebook group as well. I'm Brian Marx on there for anyone who didn't know me and wants to follow the discussion.

    I got into legacy through proxy events and the welcoming and generous atmosphere of a small local community in Maryland. I know for a fact I would have never become an active member of this community without that opportunity, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. A lot of the legacy players and content producers we know and love were born in these types of environments, and I fear that this is a real loss to the community.
    I posted this over on the mtgcommander forum as well. I think the more people who are informed across formats the better.
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    It's like arguing your way out of a speeding ticket by saying "it's not like I'm wearing oven mitts, officer."
    Twenty Kavus and a Dream is NOT a Legacy deck.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    The way I read that email (Now I can see it.) I feel like store run events will be cracked down on but if you ran an event in the store Wizards has little to no recorse. At the same time they really hold all the cards in this situation since they can cut off a store with (as far as I know) little the store can do to remedy the situation.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    This entire thread can be closed with the following: TALK TO YOUR WPN REP AND DON'T BELIEVE SHIT YOU READ ON FACEBOOK.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    This thread has been cross posted to reddit (thanks Barook, I refuse to make a reddit account! Haha) and ongoing discussion taking place on the facebook group as well.
    I mainly did it because that's the best chance of an official response, although slim.

    I wonder about the timing. Why now?

    My guess is that they failed to meet expectations in Q4 (thanks to BFZ being terrible), like the missed it in Q2 and Q3. Now they're clutching at every straw they get.

    Sadly, we won't know before February 8th when the Hasbro earnings are announced.

    Edit: A no-proxy policy is also going to play into the hands of the Chinese counterfeiters. I just don't see any winners in this scenario.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The way I read that email (Now I can see it.)
    If you've seen the actual email, can you please post it? The last several WotCDramas have all suffered from a distinct lack of information on the part of the players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  18. #18

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    I hate to speculate about this, but the situation in our particular store might've been exposed by the fact that we were streaming Legacy Tuesdays on twitch, and some proxies might've shown up or been discussed on the stream. Regardless, the fact that we were playing unsanctioned Magic should be enough to decouple ourselves from the Wizards brand. Many people have streamed Cockatrice before despite it being infringement of MTGO, people stream themselves playing illegitimate mods of League/DotA/CS.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    If you've seen the actual email, can you please post it? The last several WotCDramas have all suffered from a distinct lack of information on the part of the players.
    From the original source, our LGS: "This is the relevant text from the follow-up email they sent me:

    Hello Edward,

    Thank you for taking the time to speak with me. As we discussed we received information concerning some questionable or undesirable activity that occurred at your store. We understand many of these issues stem from misconceptions or miscommunications and I have summarized what we discussed below.

    • Magic events (sanctioned and unsanctioned) can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards.
    • Proxy cards are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear.
    • Counterfeit cards are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use."

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    So it sounds like the original FaceBook post exaggerated and/or used unclear language. WotC simply pointed out that you can't have proxies in sanctioned events which everyone already knew.
    No. It was clear on comment and effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    Magic events (sanctioned and unsanctioned) can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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