Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

[Dice_Box]

I just don't have much sympathy for people who try to justify Proxy Events with excuses like this. One wrong decision doesn't justify another... IMO.

I would rather play in a Vintage event that lets people play with 10 proxies then not play Vintage. Might just be me but I would rather have fun then sit at home looking at my Workshops.
(Granted I play shops, so only one of us is having fun.)

[Admiral_Arzar]

(Granted I play shops, so only one of us is having fun.)

Fun in magic is a zero-sum game. I prefer to take all the fun for myself and leave none for my opponent .

[QBChaz]

Fun in magic is a zero-sum game. I prefer to take all the fun for myself and leave none for my opponent .

Yes... but you do need an opponent

[GundamGuy]

I would rather play in a Vintage event that lets people play with 10 proxies then not play Vintage. Might just be me but I would rather have fun then sit at home looking at my Workshops.
(Granted I play shops, so only one of us is having fun.)

Sure I get it. I don't agree, but I get it.

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only way Vintage is played is if you allow events with proxies. Yeah that makes it WAY easier to set up an event and find people to play, but it isn't the only way. Sure there will be a lot fewer Vintange events or people will have to work much harder to find people to play Vintage... but you know that's life. It's extremely easy to justify bad behavior with the excuse that it's too hard to do it the right way.

If you really love Vintage that much, maybe take the initative to improve the community and get more legit events to happen...

You've got to work for the things that are worth doing in life.

Also did you seriously buy into Vintage knowing how few events there are, with the expectation that you could play in more events by allowing people who didn't buy into Vintage to play with Proxies? Given that why buy in, why not just play with Proxies yourself?

[HammerAndSickled]

In MANY parts of the world it is literally impossible to run sanctioned paper vintage. MD is a pretty big scene for eternal Magic and I personally know less than 5 people who own power.

[Tammit67]

Sure I get it. I don't agree, but I get it.

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only way Vintage is played is if you allow events with proxies. Yeah that makes it WAY easier to set up an event and find people to play, but it isn't the only way. Sure there will be a lot fewer Vintange events or people will have to work much harder to find people to play Vintage... but you know that's life. It's extremely easy to justify bad behavior with the excuse that it's too hard to do it the right way.

If you really love Vintage that much, maybe take the initative to improve the community and get more legit events to happen...

You've got to work for the things that are worth doing in life.

Also did you seriously buy into Vintage knowing how few events there are, with the expectation that you could play in more events by allowing people who didn't buy into Vintage to play with Proxies? Given that why buy in, why not just play with Proxies yourself?

If proxies aren't allowed, then the 2 events of 30 I get in the Philly area for vintage turn into maybe 1 event of 10 people. After seeing that turnout, there is no reason for a TO to organize an event with a prize structure worth driving to.

Why not just play with proxies? I enjoy having the cards and being able to play my deck at Vintage Champs

[Morte]

I would rather play in a Vintage event that lets people play with 10 proxies then not play Vintage.

This. I started playing Old School last year and it is now one of my favorite formats. But, aside from a couple of big events per year when people from Germany and Sweden come to Milan, it is difficult to have a good number of players for a tournament without allowing proxies... and it is impossible to introduce new players outside of us, who already own those beautiful, crazy expensive old cards, totally useless in all other formats.

It is even more problematic than Vintage: you can own all Vintage staples, but still, Chaos Orb is 150€, a set of Juzam Djinn is 1200€, etc.

I would rather allow 10 proxies then deny people the right to try the real form of Magic.

[nedleeds]

We've fired 2 sanctioned Vintage events in the last month, with 12 and 13 people. It's not impossible. Put some effort into it, award some unpowered prizes. Vintage isn't a right, and neither is Magic, not everyone can afford it at this point but I'm actually fine with it being somewhat exclusionary. I don't want to play some millenial idiot who fell off the modern apple cart and has no idea what's happening and will never actually buy in anyway. The sanctioned vintage environment, while smaller, is older more mature and just over all more enjoyable to play with for me (late 30s).

It's not like there aren't other options at every game store, in terms of both games and formats of Magic.

[GundamGuy]

In MANY parts of the world it is literally impossible to run sanctioned paper vintage. MD is a pretty big scene for eternal Magic and I personally know less than 5 people who own power.

So?

Magic is a Trading Card Game.

Access to cards has alwasy been an element to the game. Am I entitled to run proxies of the Dual Lands so that I can play whatever Legacy Deck I want to run? Like is that cool with you, or is this arbitrary line that you use to justfy when proxies are OK higher then that but lower then Power. How about Tabernacle, I don't have one so I should be able to proxy one and play Lands right?

Additional and very critical point to this discussion that has digressed from the main issue some...

You running an unsanctioned paper vintage event with Proxies as a person in your own home or non-WPN site is very different from a Store that's part of the WPN running an unsanctioned paper vintage event with proxies. (Basically analgous to the difference between a Private Display of a Movie, and a Public one.)

I would rather allow 10 proxies then deny people the right to try the real form of Magic.

Playing Magic is in no way a RIGHT. It's 100% a previlage.

This is what I mean when I talk about that entitlement attatude.

I think my position is pretty well articulated at this point... so I'm tapping out.
Good luck at your Pre-releases this weekend, best of luck with opening Expeditions.

[Dice_Box]

I will agree to disagree with you on this topic and then say let's end it. If we head too far down this path I know this threads going to turn into a shitstorm.

Right now the only new information we have is here and it's saying there will be an update later on. Let's rest this topic and see what comes from the mother ship. I am sure we can get good and indigent later.

[Cire]

Playing Magic is in no way a RIGHT. It's 100% a previlage.

This is what I mean when I talk about that entitlement attatude.

I'm on your side of the debate, but I think there could be an argument that Magic is a product that was sold to certain players with the promise and reliance on support of a certain format, and thus the participation of that format is a right in the sense of contract - if you view that the purchase of the cards was also a purchase of Wizard's commitment to maintain a certain format or to avoid acting against a certain format's development; and that Wizard's initial support of vintage tournaments was an assumption of that commitment.

[H]

Wizard's offical statement.

This week, a discussion emerged on the internet, particularly on Reddit and Twitter, about Wizards of the Coast's policy on proxies and in-store play. There is clearly a lot of confusion about what our policy is, where we stand on some of the finer points, and why we're trying to kill Legacy and Vintage (we're not).

Here is what happened. We became aware that a store was running a tournament with a suspiciously large prize pool and that they appeared to be allowing proxies. Since the word "proxies" is used colloquially to range in meaning from a marked up playtest card to counterfeit cards, the large prize made the event curious enough for us to want to make sure there wasn't something unsavory going on. We contacted the store to find out more about the event. Our intention was to educate them on counterfeit cards and proxies and ensure they understood our policy. Our communication specifically said that no sanctions were being handed out to the store; this was purely a fact-finding and educational outreach. So that's good.

The bad part was that the details of the policy discussed with the store were both unclear and inconsistent with other communications we've put out. As we dug into what was actually said, we realized that we had different reps in different offices around the world sending different messages, making the confusion even worse. And that's completely our fault.

So, let's clear things up.

Our stated policy specifically applies to DCI-sanctioned events. Cards used in DCI-sanctioned events must be authentic Magic cards. The only exception is if a card has become damaged during the course of play in a particular event (for instance, a shuffling accident bends a card or a drink gets spilled); in that case a judge may issue a proxy for use only for the duration of that event so the player can continue playing.

Our stance on counterfeits is also clear: Wizards remains committed to vigorously protecting the Magic community from counterfeiters. We will remain vigilant for illegal activity, and we will continue to work quickly and decisively with law enforcement agencies around the globe to protect against the creation or distribution of counterfeit Magic cards. Additionally, we reiterate in the strongest terms possible that any individual or retailer who knowingly deals in counterfeits works against the best interests of the community. Wizards has eliminated and will continue to eliminate from the DCI and WPN anyone who knowingly distributes counterfeit cards.

What has gotten caught up in the confusion are playtest cards used outside of sanctioned DCI events. And the reason it has gotten confusing is because we've never really talked about them before. So let's do that.

A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.

What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.

I know there have been different messages in the last few days saying things that conflict with the above (and with each other), and I apologize for the confusion we've caused though our own internal misalignment. Going forward, please take this post as Wizards' official stance. If you need to vent your frustration on anyone, send your thoughts my way instead of piling it on the various individuals who have tried to help by communicating through our chaos. And please know that we have multiple people looking at your feedback and comments on this topic and every other passionate issue that springs up in the community, so please do keep them coming.

And lastly, I wanted to end with a commitment to you for 2016. Speaking for everyone at Wizards, going forward we’ll be as transparent as possible and respond to issues you care about as soon as we can. We will always strive for clarity and better partnership, and will communicate with the belief that everyone has the best intentions for the game and community that we all love.

Enjoy Oath of the Gatewatch Prereleases this weekend!

Posted in News on January 14, 2016

So, really, all of this was over nothing, since this is how it's always been.

[Dice_Box]

We have something official now. It appears to try and calm the situation without directly saying that your weekly Vintage event is ok. (Because they can not come out and say that) What they do state is that they only care about sanctioned DCI events and without saying it, leave open the door to non sanctioned events. (At least that is what I read into it)

Long story short, it seems the left hand did not know what the right hand was up to. That or they overplayed their cards and they are in damage control. Both are plausible. I guess the question is if you chock this up to malice or stupidity and I do remember there being a saying on that.

Edit:
*Dam you H!* (Hug)

[phonics]

The idea that this is about privilege or right to play magic is completely irrelevant, as is how certain formats would be affected. The problem is WOTC trying to bully itself into dictating what stores and players can and cannot do with (their own) cards outside of a sanctioned event. I own my cards, I can do whatever I want with them, including using some cards to represent others, and I don't see how outside of sanctioned events WOTC can think they have any business in this.

[H]

Edit:
*Dam you H!* (Hug)

I had a feeling this was what would happen though. I think they really need to address their policies on information dissemination, because mixed messages are really not a good look.

[Morte]

Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.

What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.

So, we're officially allowed to (try to) promote Vintage and Old School between casual players. And keep our beloved elite formats alive

[iamajellydonut]

So, really, all of this was over nothing, since this is how it's always been.

I mean, I know we consider Wizards to be the equivalent of an overgrown child that's disabled to the point where they sport a helmet and leak spittle onto seat cushions, but did anyone ever really consider that the truth was anything to the contrary?

[MaximumC]

I'm on your side of the debate, but I think there could be an argument that Magic is a product that was sold to certain players with the promise and reliance on support of a certain format, and thus the participation of that format is a right in the sense of contract - if you view that the purchase of the cards was also a purchase of Wizard's commitment to maintain a certain format or to avoid acting against a certain format's development; and that Wizard's initial support of vintage tournaments was an assumption of that commitment.

It doesn't even matter. I mean, it's not about a contract, it's about whether people's feelings are valid or invalid -- always a *productive* conversation to have.

When people divide into camps of "Magic is too expensive!" on one hand and "So you can't afford to play, stop being so entitled!" on the other hand, one has to take a deep breath and realize this is a Card Game for Babies. It's completely reasonable for people to want to play Vintage and to be upset if they're expected to buy the equivalent of an expensive car or small house to be able to do so. It's also completely reasonable for people playing in sanctioned events to express annoyance that people want to play without having to pay what they did (in time or money) to participate. Let's stop belittling people for having one perspective or the other.

[GundamGuy]

We have something official now. It appears to try and calm the situation without directly saying that your weekly Vintage event is ok. (Because they can not come out and say that) What they do state is that they only care about sanctioned DCI events and without saying it, leave open the door to non sanctioned events. (At least that is what I read into it)

This clears things up a little, but not 100% either. Are "High Quality Proxies" actually just Counterfits by Wizards Definition? Does Wizards care about counterfits in commercial but unsanctioned events?

There was a lot of focus on playtesting, but does a unsanctioned commerical event with prizes fit that discription? Is that playtesting in the eyes of wizards, or something different?

The idea that this is about privilege or right to play magic is completely irrelevant, as is how certain formats would be affected. The problem is WOTC trying to bully itself into dictating what stores and players can and cannot do with (their own) cards outside of a sanctioned event. I own my cards, I can do whatever I want with them, including using some cards to represent others, and I don't see how outside of sanctioned events WOTC can think they have any business in this.

Agree and Disagree... For the most part your right, but the think there are actually 3 things to keep in mind.

1) You as a private individual doing something for your own personal use is clearly OK as Wizards said in the offical statement. (I don't think this was ever seriouly in question)
2) Business's hosting, promoting, and offering prize support for unsanctioned events with proxies might be ok. It also might not be, but not something Wizards is ready to go after people over yet.
3) When you join the WPN you agree to Terms and Conditions. You call it bullying the store... but you know the Store didn't have to agree to the Terms and Conditions and join the WPN...

Stealth 4th Thing... 4) "What Stores and Players" I think it's very important to understand that Stores, and Players have very different legal rights and obligations.

[Morte]

it's about whether people's feelings are valid or invalid -- always a *productive* conversation to have

True. I remember similar debates more than ten years ago, when in the reader's mail of Inquest you could find people owning the power 9 and proposing to reprint all of them, and others saying they were crazy. Rumors or not, it is always a productive exchange of ideas, and another way to observe the general consensus and the sentiment of the player base.