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Thread: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

  1. #21

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    So it sounds like the original FaceBook post exaggerated and/or used unclear language. WotC simply pointed out that you can't have proxies in sanctioned events which everyone already knew.
    Reading comprehension, man. "Magic events (sanctioned and unsanctioned) can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards." And then goes on to spell out that they consider neither proxies nor counterfeit cards to be genuine.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    No. It was clear on comment and effect.
    Yep. Read it wrong. Pissed off and going to fast lol.

    The current iteration of the WPN Event Organizer Agreement specifically states that "events" are things that use the Wizards Reporter to report to WotC. I'm no lawyer but it seems to be that by definition, an unsanctioned "event" is not an "event" as described by the agreement and therefore the agreement doesn't apply to it.



    Expect to see that updated without comment later this week.

    My question to WotC: Does the left hand know what the right hand is doing? Why are stores getting messages about the WPNEOA that explicitly contradict it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    • Counterfeit cards are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use."
    So let me get this straight:

    Assuming somebody hosts a proxy tournament in a non-WPN-location, their countermeasure would be suing your ass? Because it sounds like that.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    It must be because they're revoking the reserved list, and reprinting duals and stuff. Right? Because if not, they can suck it.

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    get ready for your new favorite card game, Magic, The Secret Gathering

    What this tells me is that wizards is considering dropping support for any and all legacy / vintage events. Their efforts to take drastic measures as such would indicate that they want players to play more modern / standard because thats the only way they make money. Wizards makes 0 dollars off of a format they cannot reprint cards for. If they effectively Kill vintage and legacy they have really just simplified the business model for themselves. They have less to worry about when designing a set and its just more streamlined for them.

    I don't like it but from a business standpoint it makes sense. I don't have numbers and I'm sure ppl are gonna be like "prove it" but the amount of total players that play ALL formats is probably very small compared to the number of players that play standard or modern. SO, even if they cannibalize some of their business it will really have an insignificant effect on them. Additionally, if they piss off the legacy / vintage community enough we are likely to sell out and free up cards for EDH players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    So let me get this straight:

    Assuming somebody hosts a proxy tournament in a non-WPN-location, their countermeasure would be suing your ass? Because it sounds like that.
    They (WOTC) would have a "course of action" which is suing for damages or an injunction (legal action ordering them to stop) but the likely hood of it actually going anywhere would be slim to none. I would image that many of the individuals that are creating copies / counterfeit cards are what the legal community calls "judgement proof." The term judgment proof is most commonly used in tort and contract law contexts to refer to defendants or potential defendants who are financially insolvent. Even if a plaintiff were to secure a legal judgment against an insolvent defendant, the defendant's lack of funds would make the satisfaction of that judgment difficult, if not impossible, to secure. <-wiki because i suck at explaining.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
    It must be because they're revoking the reserved list, and reprinting duals and stuff. Right? Because if not, they can suck it.
    That's what really gets me. No proxies in standard and modern? Okay, I get that. For the cards on the reserved list, no matter how much money I throw at WotC*, they refuse to sell me the product.

    *I suppose I could buy a controlling share of Hasbro? Their market cap is only 8.479 billion!

    I've spent the last hour so reading and, as a non-attorney, attempting to untangle the legalese on the WotC website. Without getting into what it says, I've learned two things:

    1. As best I can tell, the closest any official WotC-produced document comes explicitly or implicitly disallowing non-sanctioned proxy events is the extremely vague "Organizers may not engage in any other activities that Wizards deems inappropriate"

    2. WotC's website is worse than I thought. Reading the WPN agreement linked me to all of the following:
    * A page with over 100 other documents on it, including one not in English
    * A Word document
    * A redirect to their old website which, based on the links on the page, hasn't been updated since early 2014.

    Once I've cooled down tomorrow, if WotC hasn't publicly clarified this, I'll post my analysis.

    It really boils down to this: If WotC wants to, they can remove a store from the WPN and from being able to acquire sealed product at wholesale. Not being able to acquire sealed product is a death knell for a small store. Therefore, regardless of what the agreement say, the stores will do what WotC wants.

    Each time I get more riled about this, I'm calmed by something that nedleeds, of all people, said when discussing MTGO. Paraphrased a bit more eloquently than he put it: I know the cards. I know the rules. No matter what WotC does, they can't take Magic away from me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  7. #27

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    In 2014, the store I regularly play Legacy at tried to host quarterly 10-proxy Vintage tournaments, unsanctioned of course. We managed two of these tournaments before the WPN cracked down on them and that was the end of the Vintage scene. The events were organised by community members but held in a store location and advertised on that store's website. The solution was going to be to hold the tournaments in a non-WPN location but those never got off the ground as far as I know. It was a shame because I had enjoyed building decks for the format and managed to play both Ravager Affinity (proxied Workshops and Moxen) and UR Cruise Delver (proxied Moxen and embarrassingly proxied Ingot Chewers).

    I think they got shut down so quickly because the store has the largest web presence in the UK and a content site which posted tournament reports and decklists. I think the fact that it is so well known here meant that WPN were right on top of it. I suspect this has been policy for a little while but only gets enforced when it is brought to the attention of the WPN reps.

  8. #28
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    For the record: I remember that in 2013, we were already asked not to bring any kind of proxy to one of our LGSs.

    In general I can see why WotC would not want people to host proxy tournaments. I'm usually quite critical of them, but I do realize that in a way that's similar to holding a video game tournament with cracked copies of the game. That doesn't mean I'm highly critical for putting us into this whole situation in the first place, but this thread is not the place to discuss the reserved list and such.

    But is it also true they will disallow playtesting with proxies at stores? If so, that's pretty bad. Testing with proxies has always been an integral part to the competitive scene and you will find all the big teams like CFB etc. post their funniest looking proxies on social media. They're usually not doing that in shops, but the point is that it is and has been part of Magic culture on pretty much all levels.
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    Every thread complaining about WotC gets locked but I'll go ahead and say it

    WotC is getting more and more anti-player and it seems to me that many of the problems that WotC itself has the power to fix. But instead of fixing them, they're punishing people for addressing the problem on their own.
    it seems more built to cater to companies like star city and channel fireball. it's a shame to see such a good community getting killed by money mongering of 2nd hand sales company's interests rather than the interests of the players.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    This just makes me wonder even more why Wizards can't crack down MWS, Cockatrice, XMage and the likes?

    I mean they've tried in the past by addressing specific people/servers, but that hasn't stunted said programs in the slightest.

  11. #31

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    This just makes me wonder even more why Wizards can't crack down MWS, Cockatrice, XMage and the likes?

    I mean they've tried in the past by addressing specific people/servers, but that hasn't stunted said programs in the slightest.
    In the case of stores that depend on Wizards to provide them sealed product at wholesale prices - there is a strong incentive for those stores to fall in line ASAP with what Wizards tells them to do because their livelihood depends on perfect obsequience to the Mothership.

    In the case of XMage and Cockatrice, Wizards holds very little sway over them, because Wizards' only recourse would be legal action, and these programs sidestep any copyright infringement by not providing copyrighted data directly in the software package.

  12. #32

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    It's important for everyone to note that Wizards is succeeding at confusing some people with their corporate doublespeak centering around the word "counterfeit" and its meaning in regular English compared to its meaning specifically in Magic.
    According to Wizards:
    A proxy is a card issued by a judge to replace your Volcanic after it has been damaged in a sanctioned event,
    A counterfeit is anything other than a tournament-Legal Volc being played as a Volc.

    In normal English, however:
    A proxy is a substitute, using one card to represent another ambiguously without convincing anyone it's the genuine article,
    A counterfeit is one card intentionally made as a fake for the purposes of deceiving other players, tournament officials, and people looking to buy genuine Magic cards.

    Let me unequivocally state that NO ONE at our proxy events ever used a counterfeit card, even under the loosest reasonable definition of the word, which might include things like diecut Collector's Edition or convincing alters. Every proxy used for the events was either Sharpie on the back of an actual Magic card or a printer-paper copy slipped in a sleeve, neither of which can be considered a counterfeit in any way, shape, or form. Wizards is intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue here by making their own definitions for words which exist in the common language.

  13. #33
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    I realize fringe format is fringe, but don't most 93/94 events allow Collector's Edition as playable cards?

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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    I’ve posted about this before in the forum, specific to the UK, and it appears pretty consistent across all store owners who I’ve spoken to. The tale is of............ within a WPN store, the use of fake cards is not permitted (proxy’s being those issued by a judge at an event). WoTC control which stores have WPN status, and WPN has certain rules (this presumably being one of them), and store obviously want to keep WPN status.

    We have been unable to run proxy/fake events (10 cards… to whole deck) for some time now. Several groups have moved out of stores (to the detriment of the store), and in other areas players have fallen away from eternal formats / declined to buy-in to what is now an all-in-one deal to acquire a full deck (to the detriment of the wider eternal community).

    It’s a tough one. I don’t like what fakes / proxy’s do to the game (just look at SCG Vintage), but its WoTC policy to do as they wish, although it is a huge obstacle to developing a Vintage scene. (Legacy is less of a problem, but pretty detrimental to the new players).

  15. #35
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    It's important for everyone to note that Wizards is succeeding at confusing some people with their corporate doublespeak centering around the word "counterfeit" and its meaning in regular English compared to its meaning specifically in Magic.
    According to Wizards:
    A proxy is a card issued by a judge to replace your Volcanic after it has been damaged in a sanctioned event,
    A counterfeit is anything other than a tournament-Legal Volc being played as a Volc.

    In normal English, however:
    A proxy is a substitute, using one card to represent another ambiguously without convincing anyone it's the genuine article,
    A counterfeit is one card intentionally made as a fake for the purposes of deceiving other players, tournament officials, and people looking to buy genuine Magic cards.

    Let me unequivocally state that NO ONE at our proxy events ever used a counterfeit card, even under the loosest reasonable definition of the word, which might include things like diecut Collector's Edition or convincing alters. Every proxy used for the events was either Sharpie on the back of an actual Magic card or a printer-paper copy slipped in a sleeve, neither of which can be considered a counterfeit in any way, shape, or form. Wizards is intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue here by making their own definitions for words which exist in the common language.
    In the end it's just hair-splitting what word they choose. They have the product - they have the power. If they don't like sharpie cards, so be it.

    It's still stretching it and fucks certain playgroups (especially Vintage) completely over. And the lack of RL reprints make the whole ordeal even more insulting.

  16. #36

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Rofl. Vintage just died. Once again WotC is catering to the kiddies who play Standard.

    Edit: I'm pretty sure this won't change anything. How is wizards going to find out about unsanctioned events?

  17. #37
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    From a bean counter's point of view it makes sense. If you're charging entry for a tournament that allows fake cards, you're making money off their IP without necessarily funneling any of it back to WotC or their resellers. Of course this doesn't make a ton of sense when you consider most proxy events allow a limited number, and that WotC isn't directly making much off Legacy and Vintage anyway.

    What they should really do is have an actual proxy policy that limits the number you can use in an event, what formats, REL, etc. Then take it a step further and allow stores to sanction these limited proxy events. You extend the olive branch to players and stores, and hopefully end up driving more sales by bringing new folks into these formats.
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoderm View Post
    Rofl. Vintage just died. Once again WotC is catering to the kiddies who play Standard.

    Edit: I'm pretty sure this won't change anything. How is wizards going to find out about unsanctioned events?
    It's not going to change a thing, unless you were blatantly streaming it on Twitch constantly. At that point, you make it clear that Wizards would know about it and so their legal team is going to err on the side of caution since allowing it with knowledge could constitute something verging on copyright abandonment.
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    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Seems like too much work to play a fucking card game. Looks like Wizards really doesn't want Legacy and Vintage to exist. I guess they made that clear in March 2010, but still, it's infuriating.

    We have people begging to give them money for cardboard, and they respond by continuously screwing us over. Must be nice to not need money.

  20. #40

    Re: Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    It's not going to change a thing, unless you were blatantly streaming it on Twitch constantly. At that point, you make it clear that Wizards would know about it and so their legal team is going to err on the side of caution since allowing it with knowledge could constitute something verging on copyright abandonment.
    The issue is they have absolutely zero authority over nonsanctioned play or third-party sites like Twitch. No legal ability to tell people to cease playing or streaming Magic independently. But what they CAN do is strongarm stores into doing their bidding by threatening them with revoking their WPN status for allowing this. It's insidious.

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