Grove of the Burnwillows deserves a mention as a colorless land + colorfixer with the valuable added functionality of Punishing Fire.
You're right, will be added immediately.Originally Posted by Morte
I never really thought about Punishing Fires in Eldrazi - has anyone tested it yet?
@Holly: Thank you. You've pretty much written the primer!
I've seen some versions run Leyline of the Void from lists running Urborgs.
There's always the cheesiness of having Helm of Obedience with it or in White splashes with Rest in Peace, as an alt-win con. Getting to 5/6 mana might be a problem though.
Shortly after OGW came out I saw a 12-post list with Punishing Fire, Kozilek's Return, and I think World Breaker. Not sure I've seen a more aggressive Eldrazi list with it though.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
With the emergence of Spirit Guides as a more viable route, I'd like to run 2-4 copies of Eldrazi Obligator (2R). I think it's one of the best cards for the aggro-variety of this deck. 3 hasted power is fine on its own and taking a blocker, a Goyf, a flipped Delver, or a Marit Lage is stunning.
How many red sources would we need to reliably cast them? How many Obligators would 4x Simian Spirit Guide and 4x Cavern of Souls support?
I guess if I would make such a list it would be this:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Punishing Fire
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Dismember
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Worldbreaker
2 Endbringer
But I'm unsure what Punishing fire really adds to this deck, or if it really helps shore up weak matchups.
No one sadly. I've tested them and only 8 sources of which 4 are temporary is nowhere enough. Which is sad cause they are amazing Vs a lot of things
Edit : i guess with 4 groves too you could support two or even three. Not sure the punishing fire build is useful for the deck though. Merit some testing for sure.
PF plays rather poorly with Thorn.
What problematic/annoying cards can PF attack? Flipped Delvers, YP, Baleful Strix, D&T creatures/SFM, DRS, Planeswalkers, among other things.
@Gheizen64: I do like your manabase. Although I would probably run ESG and try to run at least one World Breaker in the 75.
On a slightly different note: Has anybody tried out Unstable Obelisk as a SB card? It helps getting around Blood Moon and could blow up problematic permanents, assuming you have the mana.
Nice Job Holly! Very thorough description and I like that you include both pros and cons of most of the card options!
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I 5-0'd a MTGO Legacy league (10-3 games). I'm going to post my deck and discuss my decisions for the MTGO meta and common changes that I would make based upon your meta. Here it goes!
OPTIMIZED ELDRAZI
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Endless One
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Warping Wail
3 Dismember
2 Crystal Vein
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 All is Dust
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 2 Spatial Contortion
SB: 1 Endbringer
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
I think the mana base of this deck is optimized for speed. I intentionally added the 4th CoT and the 2 Crystal Veins after I decided to use Trinisphere as my lock piece. The extra sol lands help ensure timely 2 and 3 drops, because this deck is playing a full playset of Phyrexian Revoker, Eldrazi Mimic, and Matter Reshaper because I realized that these cards are all good vs. certain match-ups and bad vs. others, so usually 4-8 of them are boarded out. I slimmed down on maindeck removal, opting for the extra creatures (my list runs 24, most run 21), because I found too many games where I had removal sitting in my hand that I wished was a creature.
Of the 3 small creatures (Revoker, Mimic, and Reshaper, they are good in that order), Revoker is the best. Revoker stops STP and Jace (Miracles), DRS and SFM, Elves, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Liliana, Noble Heirarch (although unfortunately not Inkmoth Nexus), and Jitte, Batterskull, and Sword of X and Y, plus painter, Grislebrand, and Sneak Attack. There's no reason not to be running 4 Revoker, but they do come out in certain match-ups (see final paragraph for an explanation).
Mimic is a good attacker, but a poor defender. Attacking, Mimic is 4/4 on turn 2, 5/5 on turn 3, and 6/6 on turn 4 (and then the game is over), but Mimic always blocks as a 2/1. Therefore, Mimic is sideboarded out for extra removal when you face aggressive decks (Tribal, Delver, and when you are on the draw against decks like Death and Taxes, Shardless Bug, Maverick (is that still a thing? ;), Junk, etc. I leave Mimic in vs. Miracles and Combo because he quickly closes out games.
Matter Reshaper is the worst creature in the deck most of the time, but he is the best against Aggro because you always get a 2 for 1 (as long as they are not running white removal - STP/PTE). Reshaper is very bad vs. Miracles because both Terminus and STP and Jace and Venser do not cause his ability to trigger. Reshaper also is the first creature out vs. combo because he is so slow and they are never going to put him into your graveyard
Trinisphere is the best lock-piece vs. fair tempo and mid-range decks because it effects creatures and double-taxes their 1 spells. When they cast a 1 spell, 3sphere acts like 2 Thorns. My theory is this: if you expect non-combo decks with over half of their spells at 0, 1, or 2 CC, then Trinisphere is your best lock piece. If you expect Combo, go with Thorn, because it comes down a turn earlier. If you expect non-combo decks with average casting cost's equal to or greater than yours, than you don't need a lock piece or run Winter Orb. I think Winter Orb has potential with Mox Diamond and Sol lands, because with Sol lands, each untap is two of your opponent's, so long as they don't have mana creatures.
My list is optimized for the MTGO meta, with is almost all fair decks, ranging from Infect to Miracles. If I expected Combo, I would remove 3 Trinispheres, 1-2 Dismembers, and 0-4 Matter Reshapers and add 4 Thorns, 1-2 Warping Wail, and 2-4 pieces of mana acceleration (mana acceleration = more keepable hands vs. combo i.e. more turn 1 plays).
If you wanted to add Mishra's Factory, which is a good 3/3 blocker vs. faster aggro decks and a good 2/2 attacker vs. decks with sweepers like Miracles, and Toxic Deluge, and Standstill (does anyone still play this anymore?), I would go -1 CoT, -2 Crystal Vein, -1 Urborg, ToY. I think running 3-4 Factories is fine, some people run as few as 2, but using them together, you can add +1/+1 and make them quite formidable.
If you wanted to run Wasteland, I would do the same as above, maybe even keeping the 2nd Urborg for a 25th land and dropping another card. I would like to see a Wasteland / Mox Diamond / Crucible of Worlds / Mishra's Factory version work, because it makes our graveyard a resource to recur land destruction and creatures.
The sideboard has been good, but parts of it remain unused.
I never brought in the 4 Leylines. They are there for the Lands, Reanimator, and Dredge match-ups, that's the only time I could see bringing them in. Not worth it vs. Storm imo. I would consider 3 Faerie Macabre, which opens up a spot. Macabre isn't as good vs. Life from the Loam, though. Tormod's Crypt is another option, but they can Decay it EOT. They can also force you to sac it and then re-dredge or entomb or cast another LftL. Leyline avoids Abrupt Decay, but you may have to mulligan for it, which is difficult, although perhaps necessary.
2 Warping Wail is really solid and I would include 4 in your list. I was running 4 maindeck, which I think is okay if you expect a lot of sorceries and 1/x or x/1 creatures, but too many Wails can also clog up your hand. I bring them in vs. Miracles (Terminus, Ponder, EtA, V. Clique, SCM), Infect, Combo (Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, discard, Ponder, Preordain, G. Probe), Shardless (Toxic Deluge, Hymn, DRS, Baleful Strix), Elves (everything except that pesky Nettle Sentinel), SFM decks, Dark Confidant decks, and Young Pyromancer decks. They come out vs. the Mirror, Lands, and other decks that lack sorceries/small creatures.
2 Spatial Contortion is great vs. flipped Delver, Monastery Mentor, Goblin Guide / Eidolon (there is lots of burn online), Venser (in response to Karakas bounce), and also as a finishing booster for your own x/4+ guys. If mid-range aggro decks like Death and Taxes and Maverick become popular, I would up the count to 3, possibly 4 Spatial Contortion.
1 Dismember is great vs. the Mirror, Goyf, Gurmag Angler, flipped Delver, Batterskull, and any larger threats. I would include 4 between your maindeck and sideboard, right now, I think 2 is is low as I would go in the main.
2 Ratchet Bomb is solid and could perhaps use a 3rd copy. Be careful not to blow up your own Chalices of the Void and Endless One's because they both sit at 0. Vs. Miracles, keep Ratchet Bomb at 0 to destroy Angel tokens or Mentor tokens or tick it higher to destroy permanents depending upon the situation. Ratchet Bomb is great vs. anything faster than you (Elves, delver decks, Death and Taxes) and it is one of our only answers to TNN.
2 All is Dust is solid. With Eye in play, it costs 5, with is an amazing casting cost for a 1-sided creature/enchantment/planeswalker destroyer. The only downside is that sometimes it comes too late, especially when you consider opponent's Wastelanding your lands, counterspells, and Ancient Tomb activations, you can be dead by turn 4 or 5 with All is Dust sitting in your hand. That being said, I really like 2 of them.
1 Endbringer - this guy is really solid and usually within a few turns of him being around, you've won the game. I could see running 2 of them, however, 6 casting cost is actually relatively hard for this deck to accomplish, even though you could potentially do it on turn 3. Endbringer is good vs. Elves, Miracles, Young Pyromancer, and lots of other stuff. He's also a beefy body to block and can do his block/attack tricks plus card draw and damage ping. I could see running 0 (and some lists do- he is oftentimes a win-more) or I could see running 1 or 2 in the sideboard, or even maindeck, if you expected a slower, fair meta.
1 Umezawa's Jitte - in theory, this card should be house, as it's this deck's only way to gain life, and you lose a lot of it through Dismember and Ancient Tomb. Jitte is also permanent removal at the possibility of 2 creatures removed per turn (and 4 if you re-equip to an untapped creature and they attack into it). However, I rarely, if ever, got it online. You have to have a creature in play to use it (for that reason I think it is better in versions that run Mishra's Factory). TNN can block without a Jitte trigger, so can Legend/Karakas bounce or Elf/bounce, so you aren't guaranteed to get an effect. Finally, you'll run into the issue of wanting to name your opponent's Jitte with with Revoker, but not wanting to because you could draw one of your own. For that reason, I am going to include a 3rd Ratchet Bomb.
I played 3 leagues in total - 15 matches - I was 3-2 in my first league (8-5 games), and 2-3 in my second league (7-6 games including losing 2 rounds in which I lost the flip - it's a big deal with this deck, a game I lost to top-decked Lightning Bolt, and a Merfolk game I lost on turn 5 after he got off 2 counterspells). Anyhow, 3rd league was 5-0 (10-3 games), so overall, 25-14 in games. I feel this deck does pretty well vs. fair decks. Miracles seemed good, I think it really depends upon the Miracle's player and how they approach the match-up. Delver decks are slightly favorable. Just need to land a fatty and swing - they get you if they land early delvers / threats (and) counterspell/discard your spells (and) destroy your land (and) burn you out - pick 2 out of 4. We win if we can land a fatty (through countermagic and land destruction) and we have enough turns to swing with it before we get burned out.
Price of Progress is really bad for this deck. VS. UR Delver or Grixis Delver, our m/u is favorable if they don't find/use Price of Progress and unfavorable if they cast it because usually it costs us 10-12 life. If you can set Chalice at 1 and 2 (NOTE: you have to set the Chalice @ 1 first- if Chalice @ 2 is in play, casting Chalice @ 1 will counter) you can lock out some of these decks.
Revoker vs. Shardless is good (DRS, Liliana, Jace), but Revoker vs. DRS Tempo decks is not so good. When they need DRS for mana acceleration / fixing, Revoker is good. However, vs. the tempo decks with DRS, Revoker and DRS too often end up in a staredown (you don't want to attack and neither do they) and they build their army and they attack and you end up blocking another creature with Revoker, freeing DRS, or they burn out Revoker EOT and activate DRS, causing you to lose your last few life. Keep Revoker in vs. Shardless / Esper Delver, but take it out, especially on the draw, vs. Tempo-Delver-Shaman for extra removal. Vs. the Tempo Delver decks, we have to beat them with our large creatures before they can deal us flying / burn damage. That's why Chalices / Spatial Contortion / TKS, and RS are all house vs. Tempo-Delver-DRS.
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 03-08-2016 at 04:41 AM.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Nope! Sadly, Eye only tutors for a creature - but hey, since it's not only for Eldrazi it can tutor up a Revoker, Metamorph or other stuff as well.
Thanks for your report and gratz to your solid 5:0 run!
TEAM MtG Berlin
The feeling when you correct someone and have to be corrected yourself:)
Metamorph can't be tutored with Eye of Ugin.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Even posting the tenth list with 4 Eye of Ugin and Trinisphere does not make this more synergistic. Your List may be optimized to play fast creatures, but 4 Eye can only cast your creatures (20) but none of your spells (16):
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Warping Wail
3 Dismember
I would rather play at least a third Crystal Vein or some Spirit Guides before the 4th Eye.
Chalice on 1
That's why I play the second Urborg {can tap Eye for B].
You play four Eye so you can do crazy things with Mimic and Shaper. If you are running two or less Shaper's, I would run three Eyes.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I just 5-0'd another league [10-1 games], although the deck ran very well and I faced some inexperienced opponents plus won most of my die rolls.
Round 1 was vs. Esper Stoneblade. I won the first, which was a grind. The ultimate turn had him at 4 life, 3 land and an SFM in play, and a Batterskull in hand {one of his land's produced W]. I had two Mimics, a revoker {on DRS because I played it after only seeing UGS and Thoughtseize- in retrospect, not the best decision], and 3sphere in play and I just cast Endless One for 4, potentially turning both of my Mimics into 4/4's and ending the game. He counters with FOW, but has to tap out to pay for the 3sphere, so he can't bring his Batterskull into play. This is a game that I most likely won because I won the roll and was able to drop two Mimics into play T1 off an Eye.
He won game 2 and I won game 3 quickly after landing T1 Chalice on 1.
Round 2 was vs. budget Shallow Grave / Goryo's Vengeance / Emrakul / Griselbrand - Tin Fins - I won game 1 with TKS on Shallow Grave and quick beats. Game 2 the Leyline of the Voids come in and I am able to find one on a mull to 6. He never finds his bounce spell and I win.
Round 3 was BUG Midrange with Baleful Strix, DRS, etc. Game 1 I won the roll and I am able to beat him before he stabilizes. He dies on turn 6 and I have Warping Wail for his Baleful Strix. Game 2 he is able to counter some of my early threats, but I stabilize and am able to play around Abrupt Decay [he has three in hand and I have TKS and RS on board]
Round 4 was Elves. I again won the roll and got Chalice on 1 down turn 1. I am able to get 3sphere down on turn 2. On turn 3, I dismember a dryad arbor. I TKS a Wren's Packmaster. He brings Ooze into play, but I have another Dismember.
Game 2, he leads with Dryad Arbor, which I dismember. He then plays Gaea's Cradle, I drop 3Sphere, he misses his next land drop and concedes.
Round 5 was vs. UW Miracles. I again win the flip and I have a first-turn Mimic, second turn TKS hand, so I am able to plan around his hand accordingly. Game 2 I am able to dodge Back to Basics because he has to pitch it to FOW to keep RS off the board. He has Batterskull, which I am able to grab with TKS when he is at 4 land. Revoker on SDT is good in the match-up. I also like Mimic because they tend to let him go and next thing you know he is a 4/4 or 5/5.
I ran very well in this league. I believe that I won 4/5 of my flips. I also had to mulligan very few times- I think once to find Leyline.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Played colorless in another local last night. Got the bye round one, beat Esper Stoneblade in 2, and lost in a close 3 to Miracles. I kept a questionable hand in game one against Miracles, and narrowly lost the race to Clique + Mentor game 3 (he was able to hit me for exactsies the turn before I had lethal, I potentially could have won this one if I had left Reality Smasher back to trade with his attacking Mentor). Game two I was locked out by Blood Moon and Jace but eventually drew enough lands to cast my postboard Ulamog exiling both of them. Next turn I played double uncounterable Smasher and Warping Wail'd a Terminus for the win. I played this list:
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard
1 Karakas
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Elvish Spirit Guide needs to be Simian because Moon. I've also been getting more and more unhappy with Matter Reshaper, that card is bad and I never want to draw it. I will likely test -3 Reshaper, +1 Dismember, +1 Spirit Guide, +1 Phyrexian Metamorph. A third Endbringer might also be good but also might be too slow. Boarding out Dismember against Miracles was likely a mistake because Mentor must die - if Miracles is able to answer your lock piece (they usually are if the game goes any length of time) he becomes a massive threat.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
And I didn't include nearly enough Red non-eldrazi mana (caverns doesn't work for PF). Not sure if it's worth running PF if we need to include even more non-colorless lands. Personally, i'm going to declare the PF route bust. In fact I think splashing colors for any non-edlrazi non-SB cards BUT metamorph (which can be cast without blue) and dismember (urborg is run even without black and dismember can be cast without black) should be completely written off.
Has anyone tried running Eldrazi Obligator? Seems like it would fit perfect in the aggressive builds running spirit guide. I'm going to try and test running 4.
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I did the matchup analysis for Miracles, DnT, Canadian, Grixis Delver, Team America, Shardless, Elves, Storm and Sneakshow, edited them in my post on page 38.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post936562
What do you think mods? Is that so far good enough as a primer so we can move it to the established part of the Forum?
Or do I need to finish with the other matches?
I still need to chose sample decklists, which splashes should I show in those? One will be colorless obviously.
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