I was also a bit hesitant on Cavern of Souls, but when I played this at a real event and my opponents who had FoW in their deck growned each time Cavern got played, I knew it was the right way to go. The fact it blanks forces, counterspells and even daze is relevant. Blue decks struggle. ThoughtKnotSeer will resolve and will put them in a very poor situation.
And even if it doesn't trigger, a 4/5 for (essentially) 3-4 traditional mana (in terms of land drops) isn't the worst deal.
Originally the idea behind Reshaper was simply to generate value a la Kitchen Finks. Truly a midrange strategy which may be too mediocre in Legacy. I primarily like using Reshaper as a cheap body to equip with Jitte/Swords which grants card advantage if removal is used on it.
Endbringer is indeed slow and clunky but it can generate good card / tempo advantage when it gets to untap. That, of course, is the problem - waiting to cast it and then to untap it multiple times. I also like it as a MD answer to Show and Tell->Emrakul, which this deck otherwise lacks. But in testing, it has been too slow in most instances.
I will update the OP with your (i assume more heavily tested) list.
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Blight Herder
4 Oblivion Sower
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Grim Monolith
4 Warping Wail
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Eye of Ugin
//Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Null Rod
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 All Is Dust
1 Void Winnower
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
What up!
So i dont normally play stompy, but when i saw the spoilers i got tempted, so i pre bought all the eldrazis.
Last night i went to my first tourny and ended up going 5-0 with the following list:
4x Mimic
4x Reshaper
4x Thought knot seer
4x Smasher
3x Endbringer
2x Sower
1x Ulamog
4x Chalice
3x trinisphere
3x Veil
2x Rachet bomb
2x All is dust
4x Wasteland
4x Temple
4x Tomb
4x City
4x Cavern
3x Eye
1x Wastes
Sideboard:
4x thorn of amethyst
3x revoker
2x Graffdiggers
1x veil
1x Jitte
1x All is dust
1x Trinisphere
1x Tsabo web
1x Crucible.
I met the following decks:
Lands 2-1 - seems like and should be a very hard matchup, i got the perfect hand in game 3 tho to seal the deal.
Miracles 2-0
Shardless 2-0
Storm 2-0
Grixis Control 2-0
one thing to also note is that people in my LGS knows how to play legacy, we have a very healthy legacy community, where we can play legacy 2 times a week with around 20+ people everytime.
Over all the deck was just a beast, Miracles, shardless and the other midrange decks cant simply handle your creatures.
Im gonna cut the sowers tho for maybe something like Endless one, i like how this deck can play aggro and still have pieces like chalice and trinisphere.
I know people doubt the mimic, so did i, but i thought fuck it lets give it a go. And jesus..that little guy hurts!
alot can be done to the sideboard, one thing that this deck really needs, and something that no one is this thread have been talking about, is a good answer to delver. thats a part of reason behind the Rachet bombs.
Sorry for the bad english, im tired.
TEAM MtG Berlin
That's the list that went 4-0 at Julian23's FNM:
Endbringer always undeperformed in testing for me, but i guess i can always try it again.
There are 2 general directions to a colorless eldrazi deck:
- The one mentiones in the FNM - a ramp deck that looks similar to MUD with some aditional Sollands.
- A Stompy Deck that play some disruption and Eldrazi as cheap threats
It makes little sense to compare creatures like Endbringer for both decks as they have very different functions in both decks. The deck above is clearly a rampy deck with Monoliths and Mind Stones and thus a playset of Endbringers makes more sense.
Chalice on 1
A lot of us brew around with different builds here - afterall it seems, that we have 2 main points (for the deck core) to discuss so far:
Manabase:
We see a lot of different ideas here, besides the common slots:
4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Eldrazi Temple, 2-3 Eye of Ugin, 3-4 Cavern
we see Cloudposts-Ramo or City of Traitor (more Sollands) or Mox Diamond or Spirit Guides - all can be combined with additional Manastones (Grim Monolith, Mind Stone etc.)
The issues some of us already mentioned are; Manadenial! (mainly Wastelands in Legacy, but DnT+Lands also pack Ports) and some fear of Blood Moon etc. but most of us also wish for the right balance between consistency and explosiveness.
For me it is clear that additional "Post-Lands" are the right way. Sure it is great to max out the Turn 1 Chalice (or Trinisphere) idea, which means running Mox Diamond and/or City of Traitor (or Spirit Guides), but i dont think this is right:
-Mox Diamond, i really like it in Aggro Loam, Sylvan Plug or my White-Eldrazi Shell, but all of the decks have access to Wastelands and Crucible/Loam. Diamond is a dead draw later, so it needs a little bit support (Crucible, 25+ Lands, 4 more Maindeck slots etc.) so i don't feel the idea is right for the "colorless" Eldrazi List.
-City of Traitor, while it seems nice for Chalice and the idea to max out turn2 the Thought-Knot Seer (with all the other Lands), City seems a weak spot in any long run. It will affect Starting Hands (more Mulls), Manadenial from Opponent (they will Waste other lands and you will find you in a spot without Mana...) and afterall consistency. Consistency itself is the point for me to play this deck over MUD, because MUD (even some run also Post-Lands) rely heavily on explosiveness (ramp with Worker, Grim Monolith and Sollands) and after you put in your first "thing" (Prison Element) or in our Case something like Thought-Knot Seer you have to cross fingers that it will win the game. Sure, this can happens sometimes and Chalice&Co can win some games, but you will also lose enough Games if your Opponents starts the Game or simply have a midrange Build (Decay etc.) with Answers to this stuff. With City, Crucible seems like a good idea, in this case you can also add Mox Diamond and...you get it?
-Spirit Guides?! Sorry, Guides aren't the deal here (this is not Dragon Stompy), sure they can help to ramp out stuff or dodge Daze but in a colorless Shell you can't use them later as a Beater (Equipment bearer etc.) like Dragon Stompy.
All the Midrange Eldrazi are good enough, but they are no "Combo i Win the Game here" Elements like Show&Tell, Mono R Sneak Attack etc. will use for justifying a explosive "One Shot" Manabase.
With "Core Lands" like: 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Eldrazi Temple, 2-3 Eye of Ugin, 3-4 Cavern i strongly suggest the add of Post-Lands (i play 8 Posts+1 Vesuva), because they will improve your overall mana development, which means more consistency, which is important in any long tournament run (you dont want to lose to yourself here!).
Post-Lands tend to be "slower" at Turn 1, which is right because you start with 0-1 Mana, but in a shell with the other lands you still have 4 Tombs (and 4 Chalice), ask any Aggro Loam Player: Starting the Game with Mox+Land+Chalice can happen often enough (besides Countermagic). At Turn 2, Postlands are ok, because most of the Time you get an Eldrazi-Land/Tomb/Glimmerpost for 3 Mana, which means Turn 3 for 5+ Mana etc. so you have enough speed and bigger threats than your opponent. Fear Wastelands? - Yesterday my opponents Waste many Cloudpost, but i simply drop Eldrazi Temple etc. a turn later and roll out the Bombs, sure it can be annoying but they can't Wasteland all of your lands (besides Loam-Engine) and even with Wastelands it is better than any "City or Spirit Guide" Situation, because additional to your opponent you also kill your own mana...
Glimmerposts are also good for some livepoints, which will matter against aggressive decks or frequently use of Tombs.
Posts are also the only lands that will allow you to use Eye of Ugin as a Tutor and/or play some big Eldrazi (or Walkers etc.), because 7+ Mana are no easy task if you gamble around with City/Guides. So i would suggest you, don't be too greedy with your Mana!
----------
Creatures
Like your manabase, creatures should be well balanced. Yes it seems spicy to pack all the "midrange" 5-6 Mana Eldrazi or go even bigger with the Titans, but they all can be struggle in your Hands (more Mulligans etc.) and need a well balanced Manabase to get them out soon enough.
For me the only "Core Eldrazi" are:
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
They are the Midrange-Power which are the real deal if you get them out fast&cheap with a good Manabase.
I added: 4 Matter Reshaper and 3 Endless One For me the "little ones" are also ok, because sometimes you need stuff for turn 1-2 or your lands are under fire and you can only play stuff for 2-3 mana. Endless One is underestimated a lot, but this guy is so good because you can scale him with your mana, early in the game he is a beater/blocker, later a great (and fearsome) finisher and (which is the real deal if you think about consistency) he will never stick in your hand because you cant cast him.
I added 3 Revoker over the "Eldrazi Mimic" Idea, because Revoker will most of the time find a usefull target (which add the ability to the Maindeck to shut something down like Sensei's, Sneak Attack, Vial etc.). Mimic itself is ok if you can drop him early and follow up with bigger Eldrazis, in this case this little guy has a nice "Aggro role". But if you can't follow up with anything (and i mean not a Reshaper), than it is a 2/1 which will do nothing on its own. If you topdeck Mimic it will also be not good enough and this deck have also other stuff (more Chalice/Sphere etc.) which aren't so good if you see them later, so i will avoid more stuff like this "can be good if i start the game with it".
I also use a pair of Endbringer here (my only Eldrazi with 6 mana so far). Because as i mentioned, running too many targets for 4-6 mana can lead to clunky hands and more headaches if your opponent has manadenial. While it can be "easy enough" to ramp to 4 or 5 mana for Seer or Smasher, 6 mana can be a harder task sometimes, this is why some are not so happy to see "Endbringer" - a long with his name, he is a "Finisher" so you only will see him later and only use some slots for 6+ stuff like him. As a "Finisher" i like him, because if he untaps he is very usefull. He won me the Mirror yesterday, because he tapped down the Smasher from my opponent and Shot him to death after i can't attack over the field. All his abilities will also profit from Eldrazi Temple!
He is also the right choice if you have to fight bigger stuff (Mirror, 12Post, MUD, Show&Tell, Reanimate etc.) so it seems not wrong to include him in the deck, even if you don't want to see him to often.
-----------------
Feel free to discuss my ideas
Last edited by MD.Ghost; 02-01-2016 at 06:48 AM.
TEAM MtG Berlin
I think everyone agrees on those core lands and I have tried around with both post and "fast" mana. I just like the faster variant more as it has less bad topdecks and you like a more rampy version with more powerful spells.
As i said before this is a choice of what playstyle you like more - Stompy or Ramp.
Blood Moon is a bigger problem to the versions that don't play any mana artifacts because they are then unable to produce colorless mana. It is understandable that to a rampy deck blood moon is less critical.
I think you value a different kind of consistency than me - you value not having your mana disrupted as in general you probably want more expensive threats. I would like my mana to be explosive to deploy lockpieces and then be able to apply pressure without too many expensive threats.
I couldn't agree more.
This is in my opinion why you need all the lock pieces (Chalice, Trinisphere, Thought-Knot, Lodestone Golem, Phyrexian Revoker, Wasteland)
Again: You can play more powerful spells in the later game - the City of Traitors & Mox Diamond manabase can produce more explosive turn 1 plays.
This is a big advantage for your deck.
Couldn't agree more. All your points are very valid - It is unfortunate that Matter Reshaper costs 3 -> we are missing a good Eldrazi at 2 and i think that the Endless One is a good replacement as he is indeed never dead in your hand.
Chalice on 1
Was thinking about this earlier today. With mana bases as greedy as they are would there be a way to base the deck green and play ghost quarters and wastelands along side some number of explorations?
Once you go Legacy...
Hello,
as I see, my decklist was already posted. Last Friday I was very succesfull with this list. here my opinion:
Iīm really exited about this deck. I hope the community can help to make the deck even stronger.
Cards I never wanted to miss:
- warping wail => killer against combo (counters tutors, Green suns zenith, show and tell, even ponder if you want ...), and in addition it kills most of the creatures you see in legacy (stoneforge, thalia, revoker, delver before flipping ...). and last but not least itīs a mana accelerator. I often play it end of turn to get the last mana I need to cast a big boy
- mind stone: a boost in the first few rounds, stabilizes mana base against wasteland, and later you cycle it for a new card. love it
- thought knot seer: I think there is no question about it!! amazing card
- ulamog: exiles everything we dont want to see: ensnaring bridge, jace, bloodmoon ...
kozilek: most of the time you get a full hand of 6-7 cards. and it hits for 12 and counters and got menace ...
- all is dust: its an eldrazi spell you cast most of the time for 5 mana. you clear the board and keep rolling. did a great job at the tournament. thinking about a third copy in the main. but not sure
- eldrazi mimic: looks a bit underpowered. and thatīs what makes this card so strong. can get really ugly. and itīs a first turn drop. Mostly you attack for 4 or 5. itīs great. I would prefer mimic over matter reshaper. and if you play both of them, the mimic is no more that strong
reality smasher is also a must have. 5/5 trample haste for 5 mana and resistent to spells (unless you discard). besides endbringer the card I killed most with
- cloudpost/glimmerpost/vesuva are good cards. glimmerpost can often safe you with its effect of gaining life. but I agree that sometimes cloudpost is just a one mana land. but I still couldnt think of a better mana acceleration
- chalice of the void: bacause it shuts down 80 percent of the legacy spells, you have to play it
Things I would change:
- 4 Endbringers are to much. Three of them is enough
- now I play 3 Cavern to be more consistent against blue decks
- therefor I took out 2 Cities and the crystal vein. cities are really bad with vesuva and against wasteland-decks
- Iīm not sure about the grim monoliths. up to now my experience with it is good. and the question is: is there a better mana accelerator than monolith?
- now I play 4 warping wail in the mainboard. its just to good
- Iīm not sure about my sideboard. all is dust is an important slot. Needle against wasteland (thinking of taking 4), karn against control, crypt against dregde or reanimator (maybe cages would be better), thorn and trinisphere against combo. maybe a crucible??
- maybe you could take out Ugin. I got the "all is dust". therefor I dropped it for another eldrazi spell
- I played 2 eye of ugin and thinking of a third. Problem: you dont want to start with 2 vesuva and eye of ugin or the other way round.
Other Things:
- Problems: Decks, that attack your manabase are very hard to beat, eg maverick => thanks armin ;-) itīs hard to stabilze the manabase. any suggestions?
- I dont like endless one because it got no extra value like endbringer, thought knot seer or ulamog
- I thought about Thran Dynamo: but, wouldnīt I rather play a creature for 4 mana than an artifact? on the other hand itīs more consistent than grim monolith.
All in all Iīm looking forward to see whatīs coming up. I played MUD for a while and what I have missed, that you have no interaction with your opponent. You just have to take. With eldrazy you can counter, exile creatures, draw cards, exile planeswalkers by just casting ulamog and so on. I think this could be a real killer in legacy. Hope you guys can help me a little bit.
all the best
Last edited by josch6083; 02-03-2016 at 03:22 AM.
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