Rumour: Eternal Masters set in Summer/Fall 2016

[Stevestamopz]

I keep hearing this, but what is the legal theory behind this mythological lawsuit? I mean, I am going to assume that a percentage of legacy players on these boards are actual attorneys when I ask . . . how would you even argue this? The reserved list is an implied contract that the collectors relied on as investors? Would that even have a chance of holding up?

Yes re a contract.

Holding up in court? Sure, your lawyer against a corporation's lawyers on a matter of pure financial speculation (ie, no moral upper-ground as in tobacco law suits). It would remind me of the Simpson's lawyer.

Disagree. The RL (I believe it even states as such on the RL page) is a company policy and as such WOTC can do what they like with it.

Even if we entertain the notion that the Reserved List is not a company policy and is somehow a contract (takes a bit of mental gymnastics, but just go with it), I have a hard time believing that any of the elements required for a contract to be made between WOTC and an individual are present when that person/business buys a Tropical Island, if the contract is 'we won't reprint these cards.' Nowhere on the "Official Reprint Policy" does it say anything about 'your money is safe.' It just says 'to maintain your confidence in the game as a collectible'
It doesn't say anything about your money/secondary market, and blah blah blah, you get where I'm going with this. It's hard to write much more because I'm on my phone but I hope I've been clear enough.

[Barook]

For those not in the know. Here's how you steal cards from innocent people:

(1) Look for cheap, preferably old cards on want lists
(2) Identify which card is cheap and in low enough supply that you can temporarily buy out the major sites that are being crawled by mtgstocks and other price aggregation sites
(3) Buy them up
(4) Relist them for $1000,-
(5) Let Pucatrade, mtgstocks and other price aggregation sites adjust its market-rate to your newly forged pump-n-dump
(6) Start sending out the crap card on Pucatrade to people who have it on their want list and are probably unaware of wth just happened
(7) Use your pucapoints to buy legit cards instead of MTG pennystocks.

---

When the dust settles, you f*ck a few people over, and the price starts plummeting. Magic being Magic, it never fully plummets so the price gain still sticks and you at least get a 400% gain on your leftovers.

This sounds absolutely terrifying and bad for the game.

IIRC, is Pucatrade even sustainable in the long run? From what I hear, the system is going to crash sooner or later since it's a pyramid scheme relying on new people to buy into this bullshit.

[Dice_Box]

The issues with the RL is this. Sadly I don't know where the shoe lands if this was to become an issue, maybe one day I will find out.

[bruizar]

This sounds absolutely terrifying and bad for the game.

IIRC, is Pucatrade even sustainable in the long run? From what I hear, the system is going to crash sooner or later since it's a pyramid scheme relying on new people to buy into this bullshit.

I hope Pucatrade gets ddos'ed or something terrible happens so that it disappears. It's very unhealthy to the game. The problem is that the effects ripple through the rest of the market. Fear and greed drives markets and this is very true for magic. Prices on SCG, TCGplayer, MCM and all other notable sites copy each other even if the pump up penny stock has long been abandoned. The inflated prices left in the wake of the pump n dump remain forever like scars.

[Paul7926]

This sounds absolutely terrifying and bad for the game.

IIRC, is Pucatrade even sustainable in the long run? From what I hear, the system is going to crash sooner or later since it's a pyramid scheme relying on new people to buy into this bullshit.

The problem with pucatrade is that you can't 'get out'.

You get points by either buying them with real money or trading your cards to people for an amount of points that is set by the site(see above for how dodgy that is).

You can get cards by spending your points.

You can't convert your points back to cash.

In reality you end up with a ton of points and the only way to do anything is to trade for cards. Now you can only 'ask' for cards so even having 100 million points will not get you that black lotus if nobody is willing to trade it to you.

So there you sit with a 'wants' list that isn't going to be fulfilled and a balance of 'points' that mean nothing outside of pucatrade and can't be turned into what you want.

I know, I thought it was a good idea until I used it for a while.

[MaximumC]

Let's wait until we have more than some random person online with an MS-Paint manipulated picture of Modern Masters before we deplete brain cells thinking about what WotC is doing.

There's already a thread for reserve-list free Legacy, isn't there? That's where the discussion should happen.

[bruizar]

The problem with pucatrade is that you can't 'get out'.

You get points by either buying them with real money or trading your cards to people for an amount of points that is set by the site(see above for how dodgy that is).

You can get cards by spending your points.

You can't convert your points back to cash.

In reality you end up with a ton of points and the only way to do anything is to trade for cards. Now you can only 'ask' for cards so even having 100 million points will not get you that black lotus if nobody is willing to trade it to you.

So there you sit with a 'wants' list that isn't going to be fulfilled and a balance of 'points' that mean nothing outside of pucatrade and can't be turned into what you want.

I know, I thought it was a good idea until I used it for a while.

or you know, how the pucatrade team can simply generate a few extra puca points on their own accounts and pay their people with cards. (or steal cards themselves)

[MaximumC]

or you know, how the pucatrade team can simply generate a few extra puca points on their own accounts and pay their people with cards. (or steal cards themselves)

This just in: every new currency that gets developed has to re-invent the wheel when it comes to stopping Ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes, and market manipulation.

Good speed, Pucapoints.

EDIT: Funny thing is, if you did link Pucapoints to cash and then used an auction system, the thing would work fine. Particularly as a way to seemlessly convert between MTGO and physical cards. But that's not how it works so LOL

[Koby]

I don't take too much stock in rumors of an Eternal set on the internet.

I do take stock in what is happening at the dealer tables at Grand Prixes.

Has anyone noticed the lack of non-Reserve List Legacy staples being purchased?
Wonder why that is?

(Rhetorically: why does SCG have fewer Legacy events in the first half of this year compared to prior years?)

EDIT: ruleslawyers (see below)

[Dice_Box]

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...act_sheet.html

Legacy Open.

[GreatWhale]

Has anyone noticed the lack of non-Reserve List Legacy staples not being purchased?
Wonder why that is?

What?

[Finn]

I don't believe that there is enough daylight between Modern and Legacy for another format. Nor do I see a need in the community for such an animal. Wizards are clearly having fun manipulating Modern. What purpose would this competing format serve?

[GundamGuy]

I don't believe that there is enough daylight between Modern and Legacy for another format. Nor do I see a need in the community for such an animal. Wizards are clearly having fun manipulating Modern. What purpose would this competing format serve?

I think the point is that Legacy would stop being a format... and Eternal (or whatever....) would start being an format... Think Extended -> Modern...

I also don't buy any of this...

[Cire]

I don't believe that there is enough daylight between Modern and Legacy for another format. Nor do I see a need in the community for such an animal. Wizards are clearly having fun manipulating Modern. What purpose would this competing format serve?

A format with Pod, Twin and Bloom plus caveat that "eternal cards" from future sets can be included (Council's Judgement, True-Name) - that would be hilarious

[Chatto]

The issues with the RL is this. Sadly I don't know where the shoe lands if this was to become an issue, maybe one day I will find out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a company wants to make money of their OWN product, you can just 'estoppel' them based on the fact they once said to never reprint certain cards?

[GundamGuy]

The problem with pucatrade is that you can't 'get out'.

You get points by either buying them with real money or trading your cards to people for an amount of points that is set by the site(see above for how dodgy that is).

You can get cards by spending your points.

You can't convert your points back to cash.

In reality you end up with a ton of points and the only way to do anything is to trade for cards. Now you can only 'ask' for cards so even having 100 million points will not get you that black lotus if nobody is willing to trade it to you.

So there you sit with a 'wants' list that isn't going to be fulfilled and a balance of 'points' that mean nothing outside of pucatrade and can't be turned into what you want.

I know, I thought it was a good idea until I used it for a while.

Oh gosh... I had no idea how awful PucaTrade actually is... it seems like a really bad idea wrapped up in a nice looking package.

[Cire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a company wants to make money of their OWN product, you can just 'estoppel' them based on the fact they once said to never reprint certain cards?

Pretty sure the argument will be implied contract. People may argue that when they purchased cards, they purchased on the reliance that the cards will go up in price given Wizards policy - and that wizards put up that policy with the expectation that people will purchase cards with that said reliance. Those expectations and actions create a contract even though that the contract wasn't written down. Implied contracts can be just as enforceable as ones written down. By getting rid of that policy wizards breaches the contract and the damages would be for those whose cards were devalued to seek money to recoup on their loss.

Not saying that I buy that argument - but that's the only one I can see that seems plausible.

[MaximumC]

Pretty sure the argument will be implied contract. People may argue that when they purchased cards, they purchased on the reliance that the cards will go up in price given Wizards policy - and that wizards put up that policy with the expectation that people will purchase cards with that said reliance. Those expectations and actions create a contract even though that the contract wasn't written down. Implied contracts can be just as enforceable as ones written down. By getting rid of that policy wizards breaches the contract and the damages would be for those whose cards were devalued to seek money to recoup on their loss.

Not saying that I buy that argument - but that's the only one I can see that seems plausible.

Well, the term "implied contract" gets into that muddy quasi-contract quasi-tort area, but basically I think the claim is promissory or equitable estoppel. You made a promise, I relied to my detriment, and equity requires you to keep your word.

Dunno how that would go (reprints so far havn't done much to curb prices) but I guess they figure, "Why bother?"

Remember, they can always just print Snow Duals if they really wanted to. Reserve list is a red herring.

[hymnyou]

Although I would be excited to see this come out, and makes the most sense for wizards- my main argument against this is that there is no 'mystery' grand prix spot on the schedule.

If this set was going to happen I would assume they would have a grand prix draft thing like modern masters, because it would arguably bring in just as much volume for attendance if not more as a draft/limited set.
I dont think the set would be aimed specifically for legacy, it would have staples from EDH and Vintage as well to make draft more interesting and feed all eternal formats card pool. Also eternal formats would see new cards as we did from conspiracy, which would be a win. Also Modern would get some reprints through this as well I would assume. I definitly do not see this idea ironing out to be some sort of legacy reprint set.

Maro has confirmed there will not be another conspiracy set this summer. I am just praying its not some stupid fucking unhinged carnival unset shit, which is actually what I believe we will probably be seeing this summer unfortunately. I hope I am wrong.

[Ace/Homebrew]

People may argue that when they purchased cards, they purchased on the reliance that the cards will go up in price given Wizards policy - and that wizards put up that policy with the expectation that people will purchase cards with that said reliance.

IANAL, but I do not believe anyone can claim the cards were purchased "on the reliance the cards will go up in price", only that they were purchased because they will not lose value due to reprints. The market will do what it does (whether that is drive prices up or down) and a customer buying cards off the reserved list with the RL policy in mind would be incorrect to think they could recover money from Wizards if the value of their cards plummets for reasons other than reprints.