[Article] The Top Five Legacy Decks — What the Experts think

[Patrunkenphat7]

I have never lost a sanctioned match to Lands with Storm in the numerous times I've played against it, but you are right that it is certainly not unwinnable, as you do have a lot of SB tools to give it trouble.

[Crimhead]

Tripled. Spheres and chalices (T1 gamble into chalice0) are great versus storm, whereas glasscombo is usually too fast and S&T hardly affected. While it's still not a good matchup, I'd prefer Storm over any other combomatchup too.

Elves?

I have never lost a sanctioned match to Lands with Storm in the numerous times I've played against it, but you are right that it is certainly not unwinnable, as you do have a lot of SB tools to give it trouble.

I'm about 50/50 I think. I haven't kept close track though.

[Rivfader]

Elves?

You've actually replied while I edited my previous post :)

[Crimhead]

You've actually replied while I edited my previous post :)

:D

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think Lands is better than Miracles right now, but it will never get the respect it deserves as one of the actual best decks for a variety of reasons, one of which is the scarcity of the deck in tournaments and the fact that people don't have a lot of experience playing with and against it. There's also the everlasting blue bias too I guess...

[Lemnear]

I think Lands is better than Miracles right now, but it will never get the respect it deserves as one of the actual best decks for a variety of reasons, one of which is the scarcity of the deck in tournaments and the fact that people don't have a lot of experience playing with and against it. There's also the everlasting blue bias too I guess...

The reason "I" did not pick Lands, despite being aware of it is my own experience against the deck with Storm (example), the obvious weakness to combo decks in general and also to graveyard hate in particular.

The decks main advantage in the format is being RARE and OBSCURE, so most maindecks and sideboards are not well prepared to face it (like Dredge). That has imo nothing to do with being the best deck

[iatee]

I think people really underestimate how bad their overall expected win % still is if their g1 is like 25%. It really doesn't matter if you are even slightly favored post-board, you still need to win both games to win the match, including a m3 with Storm on the play.

I think Lands is better than Miracles right now, but it will never get the respect it deserves as one of the actual best decks for a variety of reasons, one of which is the scarcity of the deck in tournaments and the fact that people don't have a lot of experience playing with and against it. There's also the everlasting blue bias too I guess...

I don't think anyone doesn't think Lands is a t1 deck, clearly it can take down large tournaments. Unlike most non-blue decks, it is *extremely* consistent. If there is any 'bias' that keeps people from playing it, it's probably that the games that Lands plays sometimes barely resembles a Magic game. There are lots of legacy decks, including lots of non-blue decks that I could imagine piloting for kicks, but Lands (and similarly, Dredge) is not on that list.

[Rivfader]

The reason "I" did not pick Lands, despite being aware of it is my own experience against the deck with Storm (example), the obvious weakness to combo decks in general and also to graveyard hate in particular.

Lands is a bit lobsided, as it has a lot more favorable matchups than most decks, but the unfavorable ones are also 'above average' unfavorable.

Anyway, when analysing the strength of a deck you should look beyond your own point of view as any deck has its unfavorable matchups. It would be like saying that 4c Delver isn't a top5 contender, from a Lands point of view. The strenght of Lands is its flex in switching between combo and control, and while loam is gravedependant, the actual wincon with Marit Lage is not. A good landspilot is the one who knows which role to pick and when to switch.

The decks main advantage in the format is being RARE and OBSCURE, so most maindecks and sideboards are not well prepared to face it (like Dredge). That has imo nothing to do with being the best deck

That was true a year (or two) ago, but after being a DTB and winning a Grand Prix (while being played by few people, as being mentioned in the article), if people are unprepared, that's their own shortcoming. Also, any sideboard has a decent chunk of gravehate and that doesn't stop Lands dead in it's tracks like other one-trick-pony decks. But ofcourse, any sideboard can be tailored to consistently beat a specific deck, so I don't consider that a real argument.

[Crimhead]

If there is any 'bias' that keeps people from playing it, it's probably that the games that Lands plays sometimes barely resembles a Magic game.

This. Lands is obscure (in part) because it has an obscure appeal.

[Lemnear]

Lands is a bit lobsided, as it has a lot more favorable matchups than most decks, but the unfavorable ones are also 'above average' unfavorable.

Anyway, when analysing the strength of a deck you should look beyond your own point of view as any deck has its unfavorable matchups. It would be like saying that 4c Delver isn't a top5 contender, from a Lands point of view. The strenght of Lands is its flex in switching between combo and control, and while loam is gravedependant, the actual wincon with Marit Lage is not. A good landspilot is the one who knows which role to pick and when to switch.

How should I consider Lands being a Top5 picks, if I (and seemingly others as well) think Storm combo (also suported by metagame percentage/results) is one of the best decks in the format? Its not that Miracles or D&Ts have no access to efficient hate (Rest in Piece) either. A deck which needs to dodge blowouts by hate or combo decks all day is simply not in my Top5 list atm.

That was true a year (or two) ago, but after being a DTB and winning a Grand Prix (while being played by few people, as being mentioned in the article), if people are unprepared, that's their own shortcoming. Also, any sideboard has a decent chunk of gravehate and that doesn't stop Lands dead in it's tracks like other one-trick-pony decks. But ofcourse, any sideboard can be tailored to consistently beat a specific deck, so I don't consider that a real argument.

Would you dedicate a lot of SB slots to a deck which numbers in field are limited by the scarcity of Tabernacle and beforementioned threat of blowouts? According to my data the average success of Lands waxes and wanes with the number of other graveyard-strategies in the field like Reanimator and of course the number of top tier combo decks (OmniTell).

[Rivfader]

How should I consider Lands being a Top5 picks, if I (and seemingly others as well) think Storm combo (also suported by metagame percentage/results) is one of the best decks in the format? Its not that Miracles or D&Ts have no access to efficient hate (Rest in Piece) either. A deck which needs to dodge blowouts by hate or combo decks all day is simply not in my Top5 list atm.



Would you dedicate a lot of SB slots to a deck which numbers in field are limited by the scarcity of Tabernacle and beforementioned threat of blowouts? According to my data the average success of Lands waxes and wanes with the number of other graveyard-strategies in the field like Reanimator and of course the number of top tier combo decks (OmniTell).

If lands was blown out by gravehate and specifically rest in peace, how do you explain its performance, as gravehate is commenly run? The abundance of gravehate (especially DRS) is the reason why a deck like Reanimator is not in that top 5. Gravehate isnt the blowout for Lands you think it is, because it only shuts down the recursive controlpart but not the combopart. Also theres hate versus the hate in Kgrip, just like storm has outs in bounce or abrupt decay.

The only thing thats really scary for lands is bloodmoon cause it shuts down all gameplans (including Kgrip without green mana), but thats probably true for 75% of the meta. Which is why bloodmoon will never be played in amounts like RIP is played, as most decks would shut themselves down.
(show and tell is for example a real bad matchup, as its not only fast and resilient to Lands' custom combohate, but also runs bloodmoon)

[Varal]

I think a deck can have bad and even terrible matchup and still be one of the best deck. It's the rock paper scissor nature of deck selection. I find people are really unprepared to play against Lands not as much in their deck construction as much as in their knowledge of the deck and how to play against. You won't learn to beat, or play, Lands by drafting or playing Standard. Even if you play Legacy weekly, you might only play it once a month. It's similar to Storm, a lot of players don't understand all the interactions against it, will side incorrectly and make other mistakes that will leave them unable to win the matches they could have won.

What is the best deck, the deck that gives the best probability to win for a great player against average an opponent, a great player against a great player, an average player against an average player? The deck that will most frequently win at the top tables or the deck that will most often be at the top tables? The deck that will win in a given metagame, an average metagame or a theoretical "best deck" metagame? The best deck for an SCG IG might not be the same as for the Players' Championship.

[Crimhead]

I think people really underestimate how bad their overall expected win % still is if their g1 is like 25%. It really doesn't matter if you are even slightly favored post-board, you still need to win both games to win the match, including a m3 with Storm on the play.

For some reason my math brain isn't working this morning, so I'm unable to derive an exact figure (which should be extremely basic).

But a quick trial and error shows that if Lands wins 60% of post board games they will win 48% of the matches. That's if we go with your 75-25 game one split which is most likely made up.

Of course our post board win rate will vary between the draw and the play, but if this averages out to 60%, the MU would be close to even. If our post board win rate is 55%, the MU is roughly 57/43 against. Again, this assumes your G1 statistics to be correct.

Personally I don't think this is such a tough MU to preclude Lands from being tier one! Storm is what, 5% of the meta?

[Lemnear]

Depending on your source, storm is 7-8%