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Thread: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Why are a bunch of Sourcers trying to break WOTC comments here? We've already solved how they feel about Legacy; just more of the same old shit.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    Brad Nelson (who are exceptionally good at tuning decks for a metagame) trying to "solve" a metagame does make for some serious propelling forwards wrt. decks.
    Really? The man who argued ON CAMERA that Vengevine/SotF should be banned because "it always kills turn 3" while "I" have NEVER seen the deck "killing" turn 3 at all, is your pick here? Brad Nelson knows shit about Legacy and Displays it in his Interviews and few Legacy appearances, but is arrogant enought to not turn down questions on other formats because of his lack of experience there, but keeps commenting of formats he does not or not regulary play. He sure gets along well with MaRo due to that.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrsthethird View Post
    Why are a bunch of Sourcers trying to break WOTC comments here? We've already solved how they feel about Legacy; just more of the same old shit.
    Seconded! We should strive to emulate the honey badger when it comes to such drivel.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    If there were a Legacy Pro Tour, the metagame might shake up a little more, but it is simply idiotic to suggest that the absence of police cards in Modern hasn't led to degenerate combo decks and non-interactive games than would be present in Legacy.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    I wrote up a bunch of stuff but honestly what is the point, this is the same guy who has pretty much established that he has no clue what he is doing. The idea that pros could come together and magically come up with an archetype that is 80%+ against the rest of the ENTIRE legacy format is just beyond silly.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    This is once again why legacy feels like a kitchen table format. People here actively deny the skills and insights of multi-format pros by ducking behind the "BUT THEY DO OTHER THINGS AS WELL BESIDES PLAY LEGACY THEY KNOW SHIT!!" -wall.

    Rosewater quite clearly refers to legacy not being a PT format. We all know it means that there is no such effort put into the format as into real PT formats. You can pretend that playing stuff like Veteran Explorer or Polymorph makes you special but we all know it's not true. The thing is that any deck can take down a tournament now and then regardless of the decks goodness in a vacuum. No random junk deck can take down a pro tour (disclaimer: well it might but it's rather unlikely).

    Maybe there's not so much room to move and innovate but just take a look at BBD's New Jersey Jeskai or the japanese GP miracle lists. That's the kind of stuff you can expect from pros brewing. Now imagine what lists would look like if the same players and teams used half of the year in brewing the format. Every GP shows flashes of this stuff that legacy enthusiasts just don't end up with. Saito splashes the correct color to merfolk or something like that.

    The opening questions is fucked up beyond all. The correct thing to say is that "Legacy builders aren't as talented as pro players."

    Just play the game to your best with healthy pride without whining. Don't start slinging shit when someone points out that pros are pros for a reason.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Pro players are welcome to come and build something that beats Miracles, DnT and Ant in the same day any time they like, but until that happens "Legacy builders aren't as talented as pro players" sounds like bullshit to me. They may not be as skilled playing a deck, but I have seen none of the players on those teams with a Legacy deck to their name.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Police cards? I like it. Legacy sure has some of those.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    If there was a legacy Pro Tour, 35% of the pros would play Miracles, 25% would play a Delver variant, 20% would play ANT / Storm and 20% would play "other" (mostly Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Sneak & Show and Elves.). That would be my prediction. I don't think anyone would "break" the format, but we would maybe see a few fringe / unusual cards being played here and there.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I have seen none of the players on those teams with a Legacy deck to their name.
    Might have something to do with never putting any serious effort into this format. Because it's not a PT format. Being an earning pro is somewhat hard work, I guess. No time to waste on irrelevant formats even though many pros have expressed that they like legacy.

    EDIT: and of course there is the anecdotal Tom Ross :)
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    This is once again why legacy feels like a kitchen table format. People here actively deny the skills and insights of multi-format pros by ducking behind the "BUT THEY DO OTHER THINGS AS WELL BESIDES PLAY LEGACY THEY KNOW SHIT!!" -wall.

    Rosewater quite clearly refers to legacy not being a PT format. We all know it means that there is no such effort put into the format as into real PT formats. You can pretend that playing stuff like Veteran Explorer or Polymorph makes you special but we all know it's not true. The thing is that any deck can take down a tournament now and then regardless of the decks goodness in a vacuum. No random junk deck can take down a pro tour (disclaimer: well it might but it's rather unlikely).

    Maybe there's not so much room to move and innovate but just take a look at BBD's New Jersey Jeskai or the japanese GP miracle lists. That's the kind of stuff you can expect from pros brewing. Now imagine what lists would look like if the same players and teams used half of the year in brewing the format. Every GP shows flashes of this stuff that legacy enthusiasts just don't end up with. Saito splashes the correct color to merfolk or something like that.

    The opening questions is fucked up beyond all. The correct thing to say is that "Legacy builders aren't as talented as pro players."

    Just play the game to your best with healthy pride without whining. Don't start slinging shit when someone points out that pros are pros for a reason.
    Itsn't this argument turning to bullshit if you take a look at the average result these Pros have if the decide to play Legacy or in terms of which decks they pick?
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    The Pro Tour might pay much more than your FNM, but the paltry prize support still isn't not enough for talented people to justify devoting a lot of time to it. A hypothetical Legacy PT might help stretch the boundaries on the metagame ever so slightly, but it wouldn't completely shake Legacy up the way it would a fundamentally imbalanced format like Modern.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    Might have something to do with never putting any serious effort into this format. Because it's not a PT format. Being an earning pro is somewhat hard work, I guess. No time to waste on irrelevant formats even though many pros have expressed that they like legacy.

    EDIT: and of course there is the anecdotal Tom Ross :)
    Would you argue that a Legacy pro Tour would not just be Miracles, Ant and Delver from the pros? Really? Also Tom Ross is a good player with his deck of choice, but so is Bryant Cook with his. Thats not really a wave you can ride all the way to the shore on. There are people who are Masters of a single deck. Rest of the news at 5.

    I would be happy to have some other deck pop up in Legacy and you know what, it does. Bob Huang meet on Cockatrice the person who build the U/R Delver Cruise deck that took over late 14 early 15. That shows that a builder and a good player can go far. It also shows the reach of ideas, the power of the net and how someone whos name few people know can really shape this format.

    People build, more than one time the format has been solved (twice in the last 14 months) and then a card was banned from it. Neither time did a pro do that. Neither time was a Promotional Tour needed to get the minds together and show the format new ideas. Fuck we have a site for that right here. Hell the Legend Rule changes and within a month we have a whole new Lands deck build to take advantage. This is a format full of those who can adapt and build. If you think we need pros to solve this format your putting too much stock in some glorified promotional tools.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Itsn't this argument turning to bullshit if you take a look at the average result these Pros have if the decide to play Legacy or in terms of which decks they pick?
    I'm just saying that if pros ever had any incentive to play and brew legacy the way they do other formats, they would most likely make some sort of an impact. Now I believe that never in history have pros paid any serious attention to legacy. And that I guess was MaRo's point.

    Of course if legacy would turn into a PT format overnight, they would start from existing decks. Afterall, there are lots and lots of years that legacy has existed without pros touching it and naturally many decks are already tried and developed. It just sounds like people don't believe that these decks would have been found by the pros as well if they ever tried in any way serious.

    The top legacy decks don't really deviate too much from established decks that exist in all formats. LED is legal? It doesn't take Cook to think that storm might be a thing. Delver and Pyromancer are legal? Let's try those together. Oh, Top and miracles have synergy? Who would have thought?
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    The top legacy decks don't really deviate too much from established decks that exist in all formats. LED is legal? It doesn't take Cook to think that storm might be a thing. Delver and Pyromancer are legal? Let's try those together. Oh, Top and miracles have synergy? Who would have thought?
    You are either totally misunderstanding or intentionally avoiding what I am saying. I do not know which, I do not really care either.

    Synergy seems obvious later, but Pyromancer was an untouched card for over a year iirc. It takes bright minds to build in our format and we have them. Pros might have something to add, but not a ton. Also the deck that broke Modern did so thanks to new printings. Legacy the same thing happened without the Pros. I think I am happy to leave that comment stand as all the evidence I personally need to say we do just fine as we are.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Reid Duke came up with NO RUG back in the day, several pros built sick decks during the Mental Misstep era (Gerry Thompson for example). There were a few of those when there weren't as many Grand Prix as there are now and pros had nothing better to do than playing Legacy Opens.
    It's also worth noting that right now, the players on the SCG circuit are not as good as players on the Pro Tour; there's a reason they're not playing in those. Interestingly, a few months back someone asked (on twitter, I think) what the biggest difference between SCG and PT players was. Pros' consensus was "consistently terrible deck choices".

    PT Legacy vs. GP/SCG Legacy is also not about any individual players breaking formats, it's about 10+ player teams dissecting formats and coming up with crazy solutions. That just doesn't happen right now. If someone had both the resources and incentives to break Legacy, they would. No doubt about it.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You are either totally misunderstanding or intentionally avoiding what I am saying. I do not know which, I do not really care either.

    Synergy seems obvious later, but Pyromancer was an untouched card for over a year iirc. It takes bright minds to build in our format and we have them. Pros might have something to add, but not a ton. Also the deck that broke Modern did so thanks to new printings. Legacy the same thing happened without the Pros. I think I am happy to leave that comment stand as all the evidence I personally need to say we do just fine as we are.
    Maybe you feel like that because I wasn't even replying to you.

    My stance is purely hypothetical since like I said, pros never paid any serious attention to legacy. No one knows what the format would look like if it was a PT format from the beginning but you sure seem to be 100% certain that pros would have done only some light splash here and there. I really can't understand that kind of thinking since it's based on absolutely nothing.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    Reid Duke came up with NO RUG back in the day, several pros built sick decks during the Mental Misstep era (Gerry Thompson for example). There were a few of those when there weren't as many Grand Prix as there are now and pros had nothing better to do than playing Legacy Opens.
    It's also worth noting that right now, the players on the SCG circuit are not as good as players on the Pro Tour; there's a reason they're not playing in those. Interestingly, a few months back someone asked (on twitter, I think) what the biggest difference between SCG and PT players was. Pros' consensus was "consistently terrible deck choices".

    PT Legacy vs. GP/SCG Legacy is also not about any individual players breaking formats, it's about 10+ player teams dissecting formats and coming up with crazy solutions. That just doesn't happen right now. If someone had both the resources and incentives to break Legacy, they would. No doubt about it.
    This is my point communicated a lot better than I could. I don't think people have quite understood what it means that pros prepare for a constructed PT.
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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Really? The man who argued ON CAMERA that Vengevine/SotF should be banned because "it always kills turn 3" while "I" have NEVER seen the deck "killing" turn 3 at all, is your pick here? Brad Nelson knows shit about Legacy and Displays it in his Interviews and few Legacy appearances, but is arrogant enought to not turn down questions on other formats because of his lack of experience there, but keeps commenting of formats he does not or not regulary play. He sure gets along well with MaRo due to that.
    You clearly misunderstood my point. I'm saying that, due to legacy being a "casual" format doesn't warrant the experts focus, compared to Modern and Standard.
    I'm not saying he can do this now, as he clearly isn't familiar with the format.

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    Re: Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The Speed it took U/R Delver to be discovered and break the format, then following that Omnishow leads me to think he is a little bit... um... Wrong.
    There are also examples where Legacy players took some time to discover cards / interactions / new decks:

    Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy (NicFit): Old interaction, which got only popular in the recent years.
    Glimpse of Nature / Natural Order: strong cards, which were undiscovered long time.
    Mangara / Karakas -> DnT
    Chalice Stompy Decks: afaik, it took some time until people developed the Tomb/City/Chalice core, although it seems obvious.
    Manabond / 43 Lands: now that was an innovation nobody tried before.
    Cloudpost/Glimmerpost: I think it was dismissed long for being too slow for Legacy.
    Sneak Attack: it used to be a cute casual card
    Goblin Bombardment: same
    Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo: long time undiscovered afaik.

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