Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

[Ricardio]

The "not much on the line" thing could also play a part in how man "scumbags and cheaters" you can expect to find.

Not much is relative to the player and there are scumbags and cheaters in every format but less so in legacy events from my experience.

[Ellomdian]

Legacy is a small scene in localised areas. You don't want to cheat and get kicked out of the only store you can play in. A few hundred to a thousand is not worth not being able to play any more.

People who play with 20 year old cards also tend to have LONG memories. Most people at FNM have no idea who Alex Bertoncini is, but I have friends who still make Mike Long jokes with me.

[Spam]

No, cruise wasn't broken from day one (or as soon as it was spoiled). The first person to mention it as a legacy playable (and busted card, in same sentence) was Karsten Kotter. Bob Huang broke it in the first weekend, but even afterwards people played 1-3 copies.

I must disagree. For legacy standards, breaking the format after one week was insane. You're right about Kotter writing that article, but that same article proved to me how the card was bonkers. Can we actually recall a similar statement before? Not even Delver had the same impact on the format on week one. Anyway, Modern can be great at lower levels, when people take the format in a more relaxed way. They bring to the tables tiers 2 and even 3 just for laughs and sometimes we have a new deck. Sadly, when things get competitive everyone goes back to Burn, Jund, Eldrazi etc.. innovation is actually more scarce in Modern than legacy. Imo.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Quasim0ff]

I must disagree. For legacy standards, breaking the format after one week was insane. You're right about Kotter writing that article, but that same article proved to me how the card was bonkers. Can we actually recall a similar statement before? Not even Delver had the same impact on the format on week one. Anyway, Modern can be great at lower levels, when people take the format in a more relaxed way. They bring to the tables tiers 2 and even 3 just for laughs and sometimes we have a new deck. Sadly, when things get competitive everyone goes back to Burn, Jund, Eldrazi etc.. innovation is actually more scarce in Modern than legacy. Imo.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

[Eldariel]

Holy crap! Clawing his way back from Valhalla comes Mr. Porkka. I can't believe they even let you in here after so long. They didn't say Eldariel. They are talking about Eldrazi.

Guys, treat this old man with respect. He is one of the original innovators. I hope he sticks around.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles...ompy-interview

How apropos that you have something to say on this topic.

Pros committing to brew in Legacy have never been successful beyond tweaking. The reasons for that are up to debate, but the fact is clear. Not a single deck today or ever is the result of a pro coming to town and introducing it to all us heathens.

Heh, and you as well: I'm surprised so many of the people from 10 years ago still play. Then again, I guess Legacy is a lifestyle onto its own. I hardly play nowadays but I trundle around the forums every now and then, and occasionally even drop a piece. I was glad to see Alix and Damon working on my oldest project though, especially given how much of an update it needed with all the recent printings. It's certainly interesting to see how viable it is in the contemporary Legacy landscape.

Oh wait. I forgot about Caleb Durward. He does or did post on some of the message boards, but I recall seeing Vengevine Survival for the first time when he got 4th at a grand prix out of nowhere. That deck alone got Survival banned, and for good reason. I don't know if Caleb is a pro, but it kinda does not matter. He built the deck largely without community input.

CalebD was actually the guy who originally helped me test Sea Stompy for CaNGD2, though that was a decade ago. He'd go on to innovate a fair bit afterwards. He's certainly been around the Source for years before unleashing Vengevival at the GP, which catapulted him into ChannelFireball.

What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

I can certainly see some truth behind this statement. Not just the Legacy community but Magic community in general tends to have a fair bit of inertia towards new alternatives, particularly when the new option is different enough that it's hard to say how it stacks up to the established options. Innovation is often driven by individuals or very small groups, and it takes time for ideas to catch on especially in times without large tournaments where decks can prove their mettle and persuade others to adopt them or at least to try them out.

There are more obvious cases like the Flash powerlevel errata removal, where the masses are certainly aware that the resulting decks are going to be busted and work on rather perfecting the best build than finding the best deck, but more often than not it takes time for new decks to catch on even if they float around smaller tournaments and perhaps the forums. Of course, new tech in old decks is adopted somewhat quicker since those changes tend to be easier to compare, but the overall observation that there is a lot of inertia working against new decks holds, particularly in a format like Legacy with the ever-greater costs for assembling decks and also a significant number of players committed to mastering their current weapon of choice.

That said, whatever the tone of the discussions, the tournament results did show TCruise taking off really quickly so certainly its power wasn't that much of a secret to much of the Legacy crowd. It didn't take too long for DTD's impact to be felt either, particularly in the rise of OmniTell.

[phonics]

What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

I think it was just legacy had not fully adapted to the post delver meta, where so many good, new cards were added that made the tempo thresh shell so much stronger than most people realized, Treasure Cruise and DTT sort of forced the meta since they were powerful cards and essentially 'forced' people to deckbuild with as many low cost cantrips as possible, probe became widely played and then after the bannings people realized strong cantrip core still was in spite of having cruise banned and then DTT later. So many good creatures have been printed that goyf isnt the defacto aggro creature, other delver variants like grixis and uwr became more popular because people didnt have to run green for beats anymore.

[Tormod]

No, cruise wasn't broken from day one (or as soon as it was spoiled). The first person to mention it as a legacy playable (and busted card, in same sentence) was Karsten Kotter. Bob Huang broke it in the first weekend, but even afterwards people played 1-3 copies.

And Bob Huang got the list from a local Canadian player after facing him online. Ben Winokur if I recall correctly.

[Lord Seth]

Legacy has two central themes that modern does not:

1 - People have pet decks and will play what they know/love no matter the meta.
Example: I sat down for a match, saw my opponent was on lands. g1 he masterfully executed a swift marit lage and I died. I commented on how well he played it and he said he had been playing lands for nearly 10 years and he wouldn't play any other deck because he enjoys it too much.

2 - People will travel and play legacy because they truly enjoy the game.
Example: I was at SCG Charlotte and while in the main event checked out the legacy event. I asked players questions such as what are you playing, where are you from and the like. They all responded friendly and were happy to discuss deck choices. Some had driven hours to play in the equivalent of a legacy win a box for the sake of legacy which is great.
Example 2: When I played in the challenge the next day, every opponent was friendly and played with integrity. So refreshing from the scumbags and cheaters you find else where. Albeit not much was on the line but everyone was there to jam their legacy deck and enjoy their afternoon.

But both of those things are true about Modern.

[Ronald Deuce]

MaRo has said lots of things.

Like that Mental Misstep would've been too broken to countenance if it had been a free Force Spike.

[bruizar]

What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

This happens so often though. I've come to reconcile with this fact that the internet hive mind is often wrong about new cards. When WOTC makes printing errors, they usually don't make one, but several broken cards at the same time. The Eldrazi issue isn't so much an Eye of Ugin issue as it is that there are just too many good Eldrazi creatures now. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was tossed off as te worst flip walker going for $8,- (here and on salvation and reddit). Now people are trading kidneys for a playset. Same for the delve spells. Liliana of the Veil was also considered bad on thesource. All the focus was on snapcaster mage because liliana compared bad to jace ("but it doesnt win the game"-argument)