And then it hit me..

[H]

What do you mean, "Welcome to Legacy"? Legacy is a format largely revolving around 1CMC. Chalice makes it so that only one person can actually participate in the game. The card is un fun to play against, for the vast majority of people. This doesn't mean it's an argument for banning it, but it leads to more nongames than any other card in the format.

*But sure, it's a winning strategy. I don't deny that. That doesn't mean it's fun to play against. A turn 1 chalice on the play is very close to be a winning play.

Umm, Blood Moon?

[bruizar]

Yup, Chalice is unfun to play against. Just like Counter-top, turn 1 Delver with Daze backup, turn 1 combos, Loam/Waste lock, Thalia + Ports, and just about every other strong play that Legacy decks make. At least Chalice requires you to warp your deck around it, unlike Counter-Top which is a one-sided Chalice at several numbers.

Thank you. Non-miracles players have been abused for several years by one-sided chalices and they get to use brainstorms and ponders and tops IN ADDITION to nullifying opponents' one drops.

[Quasim0ff]

There are many more possibilities to beat countertop, than a turn1 chalice on the play - Daze, Spell Pierce, REB - Counterbalance is a turn 2 play. Chalice is a turn 1 play, on the play. That pretty much means you have to have FoW or lose.

I stand by my argument; Chalice leads to more non-games than any other card in the format. Blood Moon isn't as much a blowout as chalice turn 1 is - Besides are there one deck that plays maindeck blood moon, and that's Painter. That deck is not exactly known for it's consistency.

There's ONE card mentioned anywhere, which can lead to a turn 1 win (much, much, much less consistently than Chalice, that is too) and that's wasteland.

A chalice for one leads people not to PLAY the game. None of the other cards (besides a Blood Moon, for some people, I guess?) makes it impossible. All the cards mentioned by people loving Eldrazi are cards that can actually be fought against. Chalice is a lot like sideboards in modern: You land this haymaker, and you're pretty close to winning the game. Counter-Top doesn't do this, Thalia (Thorn of Amethyst), Wasteland, Rishidan Port.

"You have to construct your deck in order to play Chalice". That's not really true anymore, now, is it? It worked like that before, it doesn't with the new Eldrazi cards, as they actually WANT you to play stuff like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors anyway. It's not like it's mud with Cloudpost etc.

[Dice_Box]

While I will admit I am guilty of taking part, I am now going to point out we have a ban thread. Please take the talk about Chalice there.

[Gheizen64]

You know what's fun? When i* whined about having to play against cantrip.dec 9 games out of 10 making each game feel the same and unfun, people called "us" whiners and losers, and go play modern and whatever. This at 80%+ penetration of cantrip.dec in Legacy. Now that a deck is what, 20% of the meta? and is designed as a counter to cantrip.dec (while still not being an hard counter, see for example grixis delver with angler/pyro/strix etc... which goes even vs it) and is actually PLAYABLE, people whine about "the good old format" despite a format where cantrip.dec is 80% of the meta is an aberration of the last 2-3 years, and not something that was true since the format started existing.

Blue mages crying? boo-fucking-hoo maybe now the cantrip cartel will be only 50% of the meta and you may have an actually sorta unfavorable MU. Seriously after 700 pages of B&R restricted list telling people not to cry over brainstorm being everywhere, i expected something better.

Now the legacy meta could actually have a new pillar , a strategy not fueled by the cantrip cartel that's actually viable. I for one embrace the new Eldrazi Overlords.

[rufus]

...

Now the legacy meta could actually have a new pillar , a strategy not fueled by the cantrip cartel that's actually viable. I for one embrace the new Eldrazi Overlords.

I don't think WoTC designed the Eldrazi to be dominant in particular, but this new world order with better creatures was inevitably going to change the metagames.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think WoTC designed the Eldrazi to be dominant in particular, but this new world order with better creatures was inevitably going to change the metagames.

For sure, i don't think WotC actually predict any change, especially after they say things like "we didn't think CoCo would be good in standard". They may be good at designing, but predicting format, well, that may be another story.

[Barook]

For sure, i don't think WotC actually predict any change, especially after they say things like "we didn't think CoCo would be good in standard". They may be good at designing, but predicting format, well, that may be another story.

I don't think many people are good at predicting the impact of all cards. I remember people calling TC bad (IIRC, I was guilty of that, too) or calling DRS a shitty BoP/Lavamancer. There are obviously good cards like Abrupt Decay that catch everybodies' attention, but there are also many hidden gems that can only be fully evaluated after seeing them in action.

I don't think WoTC designed the Eldrazi to be dominant in particular, but this new world order with better creatures was inevitably going to change the metagames.

The crux is that those cheap, undercosted creatures normally feed blue shells first. The unique nature of Eldrazi, their accel and their C requirement are as prohibiting as it can get to prevent blue from abusing them the most.

[Fox]

I think people need a reality check if they think chalice is less fun to play against than counterbalance. Let's be very clear on this point: you can fight a chalice, but you can't fight counterbalance. More precisely, in the absence of terrible mana curves, you need 10-12 "kill that counterbalance" cards to deal with it; you're actually better off with a sideboard strategy of killing basic plains to shut off half the counterbalance deck - you can also just not play magic (caverns full of boseju).

There is one [terrible] 2cmc answer to counterbalance: Abrupt Decay. Meanwhile you'd be very hard pressed to find any color that has no 2cmc answer to chalice x=1. Chalice does nothing to defend itself from the 2cmc kill-spell, nor is it able to protect itself from the fact that it has 0cmc and can be tampered with by manipulating counters. Even if you suffer from a lack of creativity and want to play legacy like standard (1-for-1 mindless removal format), chalice is waaaaay more manageable than counterbalance (and you don't have to sit through 20 minutes of insufferable top spinning to tell you what you already know: you can't resolve any spell under 3 cmc).

I mean if they printed a Leyline of "remove all counterbalances from decks (and hands) from the game before it starts" it would actually be a 4x in sideboards.

[Gheizen64]

That is also true. Chalice is an extremely easy to remove permanent that is played in a deck that play no permission. Abrupt decay , shattering spree, ancient grudges etc... are all your friend.

[Crimhead]

I think people need a reality check if they think chalice is less fun to play against than counterbalance.

Just a thought - maybe people are worried they will have to play against both?

Everyone assumes that the haters are mostly sour cantrip players. What if the people complaining about Shops are the same people who complain about Miracles and the cantrips. Shops could be just like Lands and D&T - another nonblue option that is not the sort of nonblue deck most people want to play.

[Richard Cheese]

There are many more possibilities to beat countertop, than a turn1 chalice on the play - Daze, Spell Pierce, REB - Counterbalance is a turn 2 play. Chalice is a turn 1 play, on the play. That pretty much means you have to have FoW or lose.

I stand by my argument; Chalice leads to more non-games than any other card in the format. Blood Moon isn't as much a blowout as chalice turn 1 is - Besides are there one deck that plays maindeck blood moon, and that's Painter. That deck is not exactly known for it's consistency.

There's ONE card mentioned anywhere, which can lead to a turn 1 win (much, much, much less consistently than Chalice, that is too) and that's wasteland.

A chalice for one leads people not to PLAY the game. None of the other cards (besides a Blood Moon, for some people, I guess?) makes it impossible. All the cards mentioned by people loving Eldrazi are cards that can actually be fought against. Chalice is a lot like sideboards in modern: You land this haymaker, and you're pretty close to winning the game. Counter-Top doesn't do this, Thalia (Thorn of Amethyst), Wasteland, Rishidan Port.

"You have to construct your deck in order to play Chalice". That's not really true anymore, now, is it? It worked like that before, it doesn't with the new Eldrazi cards, as they actually WANT you to play stuff like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors anyway. It's not like it's mud with Cloudpost etc.

This is entirely untrue. There's not a single deck in Legacy that solely consists of 1-drops, and there are some commonly played maindeck answers like Vial, Cavern, and especially Abrupt Decay. There are decks that don't run a single basic or red spell though. For those decks, a turn 0/1 Blood Moon means you can't play a single spell unless you have Force or already landed a Deathrite.

I don't think either is prohibitively unfair though. Various Chalice decks have existed in the format for years and haven't ever been a huge problem because they naturally have to trade the consistency that the standard cantrip suite provides for those powerful early game plays. Same for Blood Moon. Both also lose a ton of power when you're on the draw because they become open to Daze and Pierce, or allow vital turn 1 plays like Top, DRS, Delver, and Vial.

I can see Eldrazi decks being a bit better than past iterations just because they have more threats and can run them out more consistently with the additional Eldrazi lands. They're also playing a lot of fatties that are immune to some of the standard removal like Decay and P. Fire. Still, they run a greedy manabase and will have mulligan issues like Stax and MUD have for years. There are also a handful of decks that are already pretty well-equipped to fight a Chalice deck game 1, like Loam, Elves, Dredge, and Lands.

I actually think this is a good thing rather than the end of the world. It's a bit annoying that they basically printed a deck in a single block, but for a lot of folks like myself the format has felt stale for a few years now, so it's nice to see a bit of a shake up.

[Ellomdian]

As the LORD OF THE CHALICE, I will drink in all the salty tears of blue mages.

I think there are few people who have been as big a proponent of Chalice in Legacy as myself. I just prefer to play it in a blue shell that draws better cards and plays fewer pesky 'Creatures.' Whenever Tempo decks threaten the format, it's time to dust off T1 Chalice for 1.

Legacy Shops (or MUD as more people call it) has been a borderline competitive deck for a long time. The issue is that play patterns were similar to those of Tron decks in modern, and if you didn't have your engines going, you didn't really have a hope to cast half of your deck. So Eldrazi in legacy does the same thing it does in Modern - the engines are simplified, and the cards are cheaper so that you can realistically cast them without the engine much of the time.

At least in Legacy we have a MUCH deeper card pool to try to fight specific strategies - I was discussing how sweet Wall of Razors would be in Modern last night...

[bruizar]

I was discussing how sweet Wall of Razors would be in Modern last night...

cutting up space aliens with razorblades is an epic flavor win, but warping wail, dismember and spatial contortion answer it. I'm thinking Shield Sphere in the mirror! (also gets erased easily but comes down sooner to prevent more damage)

[phonics]

The difference between modern and legacy is that legacy is balanced because the overpowered cards keep each other in check. In modern they ban whatever is overpowered which makes it much harder to react to new archetypes like eldrazi.

[Technics]

I agree with what you're saying. On the other hand it might just mean that we could lose Storm but gain some other (at the moment still unknown) deck in return. It'll probably become one big circlejerk. Storm might get pushed out by Eldrazi, the next thing comes along and kills off Eldrazi and that thing in turn folds to the resurgence of Storm and so on and so on.

Also, isn't it the nature of Legacy that some decks eventually go the way of the dodo? It sucks for those piloting the deck in question, absolutely, but that's just the nature of the game. Cardboard Darwinism.

I'm sorry. I thought we banned Survival of the Fittest in Legacy? Only blue decks are allowed to be good.

[Echelon]

I'm sorry. I thought we banned Survival of the Fittest in Legacy? Only blue decks are allowed to be good.

I lol'd!

[non-inflammable]

Blue mages crying? boo-fucking-hoo maybe now the cantrip cartel will be only 50% of the meta and you may have an actually sorta unfavorable MU. Seriously after 700 pages of B&R restricted list telling people not to cry over brainstorm being everywhere, i expected something better.

When I would talk to "most" players about the problem of BS I would get the usual retort of something like:
"They should just print something as good for the other colors in magic."

Well, the other colors didn't get anything to combat BS but I too, welcome the eldrazi overlords...

[thefringthing]

On Chalice, Blood Moon, and Counterbalance: Aaron Forsythe was gunslinging at GP Detroit on the weekend, and soliciting opinions about Modern. I talked to him about Legacy a bit instead, and mentioned that I thought things that stop you from doing anything are very good in Legacy right now, which is kind of a bummer.

[Dice_Box]

On Chalice, Blood Moon, and Counterbalance: Aaron Forsythe was gunslinging at GP Detroit on the weekend, and soliciting opinions about Modern. I talked to him about Legacy a bit instead, and mentioned that I thought things that stop you from doing anything are very good in Legacy right now, which is kind of a bummer.

Not really. What they stop you doing is filling your deck full of Duals and cantrips. I am not one to issue fault with that situation.