[Primer] Eldrazi Post – Colorless Eldrazi Ramp

[Captain Hammer]

What do you think oblivion sower main deck? I love this card. I play a version 4x sower main deck and 2 or 3 Urborg main deck

Oblivion Sower is a great card, it's not quite as good as it was before Tops ban shutdown Counterbalance Miracles. I was playing one in lieu of the Conduit of Ruin in the above list. What does your list look like?

[Tucane]

Hey folks!

Tried a different approach this time around, Wurmcoil for lifespan, Thespian over Vesuva for mana stability and the usual suspects at high end.

Wincons:14
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Other Spells: 22
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Trinisphere
4 Thran Dynamo


Lands:25
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:15
4 Walking Ballista
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Confusion in the Ranks

Played a few test games vs AnT before the tournament, winning more than not due to lockpieces/TKS doing their job.

Went a total of 3-1; beating Canadian ***** 2-0 twice, beating UBWG control 2-1 and losing a close one to Maverick 1-2.

Didn't lose a game where i cast/resolved Ulamog or Ugin. Maindeck spyglass naming mostly Wasteland was awesome, as everyone i faced played it. Thespian was good and I'll keep playing the full set. Wurmcoil won close to all games vs Canadian.

Game one vs Maverick I scooped to Wasteland #3 through Knight and game three i lost in the endgame due to drawing lands and no finishers. Since we learn from our losses, it feels like threat density needs to go up, card draw/selection aswell... Might go back to playing a few Endbringers/Kozilek/Portals.

[Eldariel]

How did you like the MD Trinisphere? It feels like a situational card that should rather be a threat vs. much of the field; I wouldn't want to run it in any match-ups that come down to topdecking since unless it comes down early, enemy will have the mana to pay for their spells off a relatively empty hand. Great vs. Storm, Canadian Thresh and other low curve high cantrip decks but vs. the control decks, Show and Tell and company it feels less amazing.

[Tucane]

How did you like the MD Trinisphere? It feels like a situational card that should rather be a threat vs. much of the field; I wouldn't want to run it in any match-ups that come down to topdecking since unless it comes down early, enemy will have the mana to pay for their spells off a relatively empty hand. Great vs. Storm, Canadian Thresh and other low curve high cantrip decks but vs. the control decks, Show and Tell and company it feels less amazing.

It is like you said situational, landed it early vs Delver and won easily. Had it in hand when i scooped to mavericks wastelands, didn't want to play it. It might have better use as a sideboard card vs low curve decks. I'm going to test out Lodestone Golem among other spheres in that specific slot.

[Eldariel]

It is like you said situational, landed it early vs Delver and won easily. Had it in hand when i scooped to mavericks wastelands, didn't want to play it. It might have better use as a sideboard card vs low curve decks. I'm going to test out Lodestone Golem among other spheres in that specific slot.

As a 10 year Chalice Aggro player, I could just never vindicate the card in the maindeck no matter how many times I tried it. It randomly wins games and is amazing early on but it's just not solid if your gameplan lasts for over 3 turns. Much of the time it's a terrible topdeck (unlike Chalice which tends to be relevant whenever you aren't literally dying on the board) and even in the opening hand it's only good vs. a portion of the format. Dropping it from the main certainly hurts the combo match-up (my Chalice Aggro was blue so of course in that sense it was far less of an issue but even here, TKS does a lot to make the combo match-ups more tenable without Trinisphere), but rarely is combo more than 1/3rd of the metagame. Low-curve tempo is another place where it's great and you normally have trouble in such match-ups so in that sense it could be a reasonable pre-sideboarding choice but as you noted, it does make for much worse topdecking and really hurts your threat density. I don't think it's something you can really afford without a very skewed metagame and even there, the fact that it's such a bad topdeck after the first few turns in a deck with already very low threat density and filtering (since the deck needs to devote so many slots to mana - Eye of Ugin is the only saving grace, doing the mana duty in conjunction with the threat duty) would make me wary of maindecking it. Certainly, it can be a great sideboard card though if you run enough sphere effects without it, might be that there are more impactful slots you can run that more directly address the problem match-ups.

[solnox]

Just picked up the deck on mtgo and having a great time with it.

Only problem im having with are the delver decks :/ They always have daze for your lockpiece/manaramp with wasteland+threat to put on a fast clock before you can rebuild. Already had a few 5-0 runs spoiled by them.

[Tucane]

As a 10 year Chalice Aggro player, I could just never vindicate the card in the maindeck no matter how many times I tried it. It randomly wins games and is amazing early on but it's just not solid if your gameplan lasts for over 3 turns. Much of the time it's a terrible topdeck (unlike Chalice which tends to be relevant whenever you aren't literally dying on the board) and even in the opening hand it's only good vs. a portion of the format. Dropping it from the main certainly hurts the combo match-up (my Chalice Aggro was blue so of course in that sense it was far less of an issue but even here, TKS does a lot to make the combo match-ups more tenable without Trinisphere), but rarely is combo more than 1/3rd of the metagame. Low-curve tempo is another place where it's great and you normally have trouble in such match-ups so in that sense it could be a reasonable pre-sideboarding choice but as you noted, it does make for much worse topdecking and really hurts your threat density. I don't think it's something you can really afford without a very skewed metagame and even there, the fact that it's such a bad topdeck after the first few turns in a deck with already very low threat density and filtering (since the deck needs to devote so many slots to mana - Eye of Ugin is the only saving grace, doing the mana duty in conjunction with the threat duty) would make me wary of maindecking it. Certainly, it can be a great sideboard card though if you run enough sphere effects without it, might be that there are more impactful slots you can run that more directly address the problem match-ups.

The reason why I chose to play Trinisphere this time was because I lost too much vs tempo/delver earlier. This time around it luckily helped alot. I still don't like that card in the MD for many of the reasons you mentioned, so I'd be happy to replace it with something better.

Any ideas?

[Eldariel]

The reason why I chose to play Trinisphere this time was because I lost too much vs tempo/delver earlier. This time around it luckily helped alot. I still don't like that card in the MD for many of the reasons you mentioned, so I'd be happy to replace it with something better.

Any ideas?

Well in your case, your sideboard is so heavily burdened by the double Leylines that the question is a bit tricky, since you'd also need to fit the Trinis on the side. Ideally you'd want something generally applicable that does work both early on and down the line and preferably can act as a threat. Out of the SB cards to replace with Trinisphere the only one that really matches that description is Walking Ballista, but which is probably significantly better topdeck much of the time and it also works against Delver-decks taking out their Delver/Pyromancer/etc. early on. The downside would be that it has far less of an impact than the early Trini particularly in the combo match-up, and that it too is unable to utilise the Eldrazi mana. However, the Eldrazi options are uninspiring; Matter Reshaper is somewhat interesting at low enough manacost and producing some value but feels really dumb in the face of a Delver and does nothing to stop combo, and needs to be killed to be useful lategame.

Adding one more big threat and a couple of cheaper interactive spells could potentially be worthwhile. Both Spheres feel even worse than Trini since they punish you; the distance from 10 to 11 mana is much longer than the distance from 1 to 2 mana particularly when your mana is already being taxed. Some extra acceleration seems potentially interesting. Perhaps something that doubles as a lategame threat and an accelerant: Hedron Archive comes to mind, though an added early accelerant like Basalt Monolith seems also interesting. Hedron Archive has the advantage of acting as a threat and an accelerant, but four mana may be prohibitive vs. a resource denial deck.

[Tucane]

Well in your case, your sideboard is so heavily burdened by the double Leylines that the question is a bit tricky, since you'd also need to fit the Trinis on the side. Ideally you'd want something generally applicable that does work both early on and down the line and preferably can act as a threat. Out of the SB cards to replace with Trinisphere the only one that really matches that description is Walking Ballista, but which is probably significantly better topdeck much of the time and it also works against Delver-decks taking out their Delver/Pyromancer/etc. early on. The downside would be that it has far less of an impact than the early Trini particularly in the combo match-up, and that it too is unable to utilise the Eldrazi mana. However, the Eldrazi options are uninspiring; Matter Reshaper is somewhat interesting at low enough manacost and producing some value but feels really dumb in the face of a Delver and does nothing to stop combo, and needs to be killed to be useful lategame.

Adding one more big threat and a couple of cheaper interactive spells could potentially be worthwhile. Both Spheres feel even worse than Trini since they punish you; the distance from 10 to 11 mana is much longer than the distance from 1 to 2 mana particularly when your mana is already being taxed. Some extra acceleration seems potentially interesting. Perhaps something that doubles as a lategame threat and an accelerant: Hedron Archive comes to mind, though an added early accelerant like Basalt Monolith seems also interesting. Hedron Archive has the advantage of acting as a threat and an accelerant, but four mana may be prohibitive vs. a resource denial deck.

Thanks for helping out!

Ballistas out of the SB might be good, but are a little too slow to warrant MD space. Reshapers have been tested and tend to be ignored by Delver/TNN. The only Eldrazi creature options I like for midrange are Smasher and Endbringer which both have their ups/downs. As I like the control role, I tend to lean towards the latter (even though he lacks built-in protection.)

I'd play Basalt Monolith over Hedron Archive due to the lower cost and the fact that two cards is too few to consistently find a new threat in this deck.

Gonna try both of the accelerants first to see how it works out.

Plan B to add a land and a few Endbringer and/or All is Dust MD. The latter does not win by itself like Ugin tends to do, but it should buy a few turns atleast.

[solnox]

Managed to 5-0 after a few leagues :)

[caprino]

Managed to 5-0 after a few leagues :)

List?

[Postman]

List?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/872034#paper

[Postman]

I'm playing this deck from time to time, and it's often very impressive! But I need to change a few things...First of all, my last "stable" build:

4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
2 Basalt Monolith
2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre

Manabase: works, but I will change like this: -1 Karakas, +1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures: going to cut 2 Endbringer. What do you recommend to put into these slots? Tested Conduit of Ruin, Smasher, Wurmcoil Engine... Smasher seems to be the best, but doesn't support the ramp-plan. Conduit is often "only" a +2 ramp, since at least one big guy is already in hand. Wurmcoil is the weakest one, only good for sideboard, IMO. What about Oblivion Sower? Seems to read like "6 Mana, 5/8, get 1-2 lands". But many lists play 3 copies. Why is he so good?

Spells: going to cut Ugin and the Keys. Ugin gets countered very often, 8 Mana, no cast trigger Key alone does nothing. Turn 1 Chalice: dead card in hand. Maybe I will add 3 Spyglasses, again. Protection from Wasteland, some information on opponent's hand, answer to Jace / Lilly...

Would be great to get some advice from the veteran players of this deck

[Tucane]

I'm playing this deck from time to time, and it's often very impressive! But I need to change a few things...First of all, my last "stable" build:

4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
2 Basalt Monolith
2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre

Manabase: works, but I will change like this: -1 Karakas, +1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures: going to cut 2 Endbringer. What do you recommend to put into these slots? Tested Conduit of Ruin, Smasher, Wurmcoil Engine... Smasher seems to be the best, but doesn't support the ramp-plan. Conduit is often "only" a +2 ramp, since at least one big guy is already in hand. Wurmcoil is the weakest one, only good for sideboard, IMO. What about Oblivion Sower? Seems to read like "6 Mana, 5/8, get 1-2 lands". But many lists play 3 copies. Why is he so good?

Spells: going to cut Ugin and the Keys. Ugin gets countered very often, 8 Mana, no cast trigger Key alone does nothing. Turn 1 Chalice: dead card in hand. Maybe I will add 3 Spyglasses, again. Protection from Wasteland, some information on opponent's hand, answer to Jace / Lilly...

Would be great to get some advice from the veteran players of this deck

No a veteran of this deck, but I have tested many different builds/options.

As for Oblivion Sower, it does a couple of things really well. Cast trigger is obviously good, sometimes netting a plethora of lands from various effects such as DRS exiles or big Delves from a Angler or Stalker. It's good in the mirror and against other stompy builds due to them playing sol lands, while being good vs resource denial. "Combos" with grave hate, Urborg + opponents fetches.

The other thing it does well (or is), is the 8 toughness part, making it a formidable blocker that survives Dismember, Toxic Deluge to a degree, blocks goyfs and such and can take a couple of bolts.

Cons: Needs Urborg's vs Fetch/Dual-manabased decks, might whiff with the cast trigger and can't save your butt above the ground.

I'm all for maindeck Spyglass, has been one of the best cards vs anything with Wasteland/Vial/Walkers/DRS and other commonly played stuff.

[solnox]

Key lets you do some of the most busted starts in the deck.

[Postman]

No a veteran of this deck, but I have tested many different builds/options.

As for Oblivion Sower, it does a couple of things really well. Cast trigger is obviously good, sometimes netting a plethora of lands from various effects such as DRS exiles or big Delves from a Angler or Stalker. It's good in the mirror and against other stompy builds due to them playing sol lands, while being good vs resource denial. "Combos" with grave hate, Urborg + opponents fetches.

The other thing it does well (or is), is the 8 toughness part, making it a formidable blocker that survives Dismember, Toxic Deluge to a degree, blocks goyfs and such and can take a couple of bolts.

Cons: Needs Urborg's vs Fetch/Dual-manabased decks, might whiff with the cast trigger and can't save your butt above the ground.

I'm all for maindeck Spyglass, has been one of the best cards vs anything with Wasteland/Vial/Walkers/DRS and other commonly played stuff.

Thanks for your reply! Added 3 Sower and 3 Spyglasses and will test it. Didn't think of the synergy Sower / Leyline...

Key lets you do some of the most busted starts in the deck.

Thanks. I know about the potential power of the Key. But is it really worth playing it? As written before, it's annoying to draw it with Chalice @1, and it does nothing without a mana - stone. Maybe I have been unlucky, but most of the times I'm not happy when key shows up, or it's a win - more situation

[203995014]

Hey guys, I made a discord server for anything related to decks playing the 12-post manabase, and that also means this deck! Feel free to join and we can ask on the fly about deck choices, questionable keeps/plays, and any other terrible ideas we may have!

https://discord.gg/95wjxNf

[MGB]

Thanks for your reply! Added 3 Sower and 3 Spyglasses and will test it. Didn't think of the synergy Sower / Leyline...



Thanks. I know about the potential power of the Key. But is it really worth playing it? As written before, it's annoying to draw it with Chalice @1, and it does nothing without a mana - stone. Maybe I have been unlucky, but most of the times I'm not happy when key shows up, or it's a win - more situation

The way I look at Voltaic Key is that it's essentially a Sol Ring in this deck as long as you have a Monolith/Dynamo in play - i.e. it generates 2 extra mana when it untaps a mana rock.

So you have the ability to play 4 copies of something very close to Sol Ring in an artifact deck... would you do that if Sol Ring were legal in Legacy? Do you think the Chalice decks would play 4 Sol Rings in Vintage if it was unrestricted?

Of course it's not a 1:1 comparison because Key does nothing on its own whereas Sol Ring always generates mana. But the fact that Key is a Sol Ring often enough is quite good.

[Captain Hammer]

I mostly love the list in the OP but I sorely missed the utility Conduit of Ruin offered.

I ended up cutting an Ulamog, a Kozilek and a Warping Wail and playing 3 Conduit of ruin maindeck.

What do you guys think?

I tweaked the OP to reflect this change.

[Bobbunny]

Finally managed to find some time to play again. Went to Indy this weekend, dropped in the Open, and played a turbo and a challenge for legacy. Won my turbo and went 4-0 in the challenge.

Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Eye of Ugin
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
1x Wastes
Instant (2)
2x Warping Wail
Artifact (18)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Thran Dynamo
3x Trinisphere
2x Voltaic Key
Creature (14)
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Walking Ballista
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Sorcery (2)
2x All Is Dust
Sideboard (15)
1x All Is Dust
2x Endbringer
1x Ratchet Bomb
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
3x Spatial Contortion
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Changes: One Ulamog/Top threat for a walking ballista and the pithing needle in the side was switched to the 4th spyglass.

Turbo - Czech Pile
2-1
IN:
2 Endbringer
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ugin the Spirit Dragon
1 All is Dust

Out:
2 Voltaic Key
2 Thran Dynamo
1 Walking Ballista
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
Lost game 1 and won the next 2. Overall it feels like a grindy matchup but they don't have wastelands to take you off mana. Tax effects are more important because they can play abrupt decay and like 3 K-Command. If they can 2 for one you enough (via Jace/K-Command/Hymn) they can definitely get there, but a resolved wurmcoil is generally enough for game.

Challenge - Dredge
2-1
IN:
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x All is Dust
2x Endbringer

OUT:
2x Thran Dynamo
2x Voltaic Key
3x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Walking Ballista

Dredge does not seem like a great matchup for us; pre-board is dependent on lock pieces. I got game 1 because he was on a mull to 5 and I had a trinisphere to lock him out of casting spells. He went off G2 T1 and G3 was more trinisphere/chalice fun. Post-board I think you have to keep a hand with either leyline or trinisphere in order to do any real work.

Challenge - Czech Pile
2-1
Same as before
Played the same guy from the night before and it went the same as before. Keeping creature hands is better than lock pieces and hand but obviously both are the best.

Challenge - ANT STorm
2-1
IN:
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Endbringer

OUT:
3x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x All is Dust
1x Walking Ballista

I had chalices on 0-3 G1, he killed me T1 G2, and I trinisphere'd him G3. Storm decks are generally pretty easy for us because we have very strong disruption (TKS/Artifact Lock) and strong clocks that come cheap (Smasher).

Challenge - UW Miraclse
2-0
SB is same as Czech Pile

Trinisphere was an all-star both games. TKS took a council's judgement G1 and I finished him off after he tapped out for entreat with a Ballista. G2 was the usual with a Trinisphere resolving and me throwing creatures until he died. Creature hands are best here but a mana hand with eye is fine too. It generally becomes a game of how many terminus can he draw before he dies.

Overall thoughts on my list: Wurmcoil is still overperforming even in spirit, 1x Ballista has not been very impressive, Trinisphere should be played in the main as a minimum 2 of; the card is just too nuts against the field right now. I haven't done much testing with what you guys have been posting but I'll probably start looking into:
More Planeswalkers (Karn/Ugin)
More MUD (Basalt Monolith)
Lodestone Golemn?
Faerie Macabre as GY hate

Thoughts on some other stuff:
Oblivion Sower is bad; unless you're trying to high-roll combo and hit some crazy stuff, more often than not you just get some useless fetches or nothing. At 6 mana Endbringer is both better value and a better threat.

Conduits of Ruin are very mediocre in my opinion. They can setup powerful turns with their discount ability (ayy Ulamog) and guarantees gas next turn, but they're mostly just meh. If I was to play them I would play them along side Endbringer as a strong target.

Coercive Portal as card advantage has been very underwhelming; keys can give stronger starts and more creatures improves control matchups.