[Primer] Eldrazi Stompy

[Arcadia]

I see you guys have replaced Endbringer with Oblivion Sower because of blood moon. That's just 2 cards more you can cast, and it's usually not as good as endbringer.
I was considering adding 1-2 wastes maindeck, and even 1-2 more as a sideboard option. Mishra-Urborg-Karakas are nice, but I can imagine at least taking out 1 mishra's factory. I'd also consider Walking Ballista, as it's "removal" for pyromancers and a few other creatures.

I personally run 4 thorns maindeck and I love them. They're very good against blue decks and combo and it gives you free wins. I find them more appealing than more Warping Wail, Jittes and Dismembers (which are also dead, depending on the match up). For a few matchups you then have many cards to SB out (4 chalice 4 thorn). It has some pros and cons.

[Darkness]

I see you guys have replaced Endbringer with Oblivion Sower because of blood moon. That's just 2 cards more you can cast, and it's usually not as good as endbringer.
I was considering adding 1-2 wastes maindeck, and even 1-2 more as a sideboard option. Mishra-Urborg-Karakas are nice, but I can imagine at least taking out 1 mishra's factory. I'd also consider Walking Ballista, as it's "removal" for pyromancers and a few other creatures.

Who are "You Guys?" I play a 2/2 Spilt of Endbringer and Sower. Sower doesn't do much against Blood Moon, it's for the Midrange MU to out grind and eventually get an Eye of Ugin live consistently. We don't have enough non Eldrazi mana to make Ballista worth it, I tried it for about 75 games and it was underwhelming.

I personally run 4 thorns maindeck and I love them. They're very good against blue decks and combo and it gives you free wins. I find them more appealing than more Warping Wail, Jittes and Dismembers (which are also dead, depending on the match up). For a few matchups you then have many cards to SB out (4 chalice 4 thorn). It has some pros and cons.

I do not see how Thorn is good against the Blue decks, especially Grixis Delver when that MU is all about controlling board not the stack. Plus, they have DRS to mitigate the tax effect and continue to play their game out. It is a house against Storm but not as good against Turbo Depths or Sneak and Show.

[bakofried]

Who are "You Guys?" I play a 2/2 Spilt of Endbringer and Sower. Sower doesn't do much against Blood Moon, it's for the Midrange MU to out grind and eventually get an Eye of Ugin live consistently. We don't have enough non Eldrazi mana to make Ballista worth it, I tried it for about 75 games and it was underwhelming.



I do not see how Thorn is good against the Blue decks, especially Grixis Delver when that MU is all about controlling board not the stack. Plus, they have DRS to mitigate the tax effect and continue to play their game out. It is a house against Storm but not as good against Turbo Depths or Sneak and Show.

Agreed on both points. Sower stares down Anglers, Goyfs, and other fatties with relative ease, and has hilarious applications against random decks like Eldrazi Post. Grixis Delver will have hands that get shut down by Thorn, but if they're drawing spells, they're already losing.

[Darkness]

Sideboard Changes
-2 Ratchet Bombs
+1 Warping Wail
+1 Sorcerous Spyglass


These are my changes after my analysis. I will be creating a Sideboard Guide using my 75 by the weekend.

[bakofried]

Sideboard Changes
-2 Ratchet Bombs
+1 Warping Wail
+1 Sorcerous Spyglass


These are my changes after my analysis. I will be creating a Sideboard Guide using my 75 by the weekend.

My one concern with cutting Ratchet Bomb is that the deck then loses its best way to remove an artifact (read: Ensnaring Bridge).

[Darkness]

My one concern with cutting Ratchet Bomb is that the deck then loses its best way to remove an artifact (read: Ensnaring Bridge).

I agree. I'm going to test without and see if my non prison deck MU become significantly better. I feel it's the worst card in the board and is basically a sacred cow due to E Bridge. but it takes 4 turns to remove 1 Ebridge and if we haven't already spewed our hand before a blood moon we probably have no creatures. I'm not saying I am correct yet I'm just trying out new things. It's possible I will revert back after I gather data to support my new hypothesis.

[Arcadia]

I play a 2/2 Spilt of Endbringer and Sower.

I see 2 sowers in the maindeck and 1 Endbringer in the sideboard

Sower doesn't do much against Blood Moon, it's for the Midrange MU to out grind and eventually get an Eye of Ugin live consistently. We don't have enough non Eldrazi mana to make Ballista worth it, I tried it for about 75 games and it was underwhelming.

Then I misunderstood the sower.
I was testing yesterday the Ballista and as much as I want it to work...it's very slow.

I do not see how Thorn is good against the Blue decks, especially Grixis Delver when that MU is all about controlling board not the stack. Plus, they have DRS to mitigate the tax effect and continue to play their game out. It is a house against Storm but not as good against Turbo Depths or Sneak and Show.

It's good against grixis and I would sideboard them in even if it's in the SB. They can't develop their game through thorn. Every time I played against Delver and I played the thorn the opponents said that thorn was a nightmare for them. I usually won those games. They also always try to FoW it, it's like a chalice for them almost. Those are also not the only blue decks. I just feel that Jitte, warping wail and dismember are fine but not powerful enough.



Is there are card which is really good against sneak and show or moon stompy and is not run usually? I have the feeling the matchups are simply bad and you can't do more. Ratched bomb is not enough vs moon and spyglass and karakas doesn't seem enough either vs sneak and show. I saw some SB with Boompile but it didn't perform very well (surprise).

[Darkness]

I see 2 sowers in the maindeck and 1 Endbringer in the sideboard

Where are you looking for that? Click on the link of current decks I play it should take you to MTG Goldfish, that's my current 75. Don't look at my previous projects those are outdated.

Then I misunderstood the sower.
I was testing yesterday the Ballista and as much as I want it to work...it's very slow.

It is too slow and should be a meta call not a staple for this deck. Maybe if you have a ton of DnT in your meta but I don't think it's an auto include like most people have been doing lately.

It's good against grixis and I would sideboard them in even if it's in the SB. They can't develop their game through thorn. Every time I played against Delver and I played the thorn the opponents said that thorn was a nightmare for them. I usually won those games. They also always try to FoW it, it's like a chalice for them almost. Those are also not the only blue decks. I just feel that Jitte, warping wail and dismember are fine but not powerful enough.

Personally I disagree with bringing in any cards agains Grixis Delver. I can see an argument when you're on the play to bring it in, but I just don't think anything is worth bringing out. From my testing for the current meta and the late 2016 I never saw Thorn to be an effective card against Delver. It's possible you opponents are playing sub par and not looking for the optimal opening hand, which should be 2 threats 2 lands at least 1 cantrip at least 1 interaction spell for the board and anything else. Like I said its' a horrible late game card and sometimes you'll have a Thorn and they have a flipped Delver, or a DRS to mitigate the taxing effect or an Angler. I'm just not a fan, and with a 70% win loss against the deck I don't want to experiment and potentially alter my success.

Is there are card which is really good against sneak and show or moon stompy and is not run usually? I have the feeling the matchups are simply bad and you can't do more. Ratched bomb is not enough vs moon and spyglass and karakas doesn't seem enough either vs sneak and show. I saw some SB with Boompile but it didn't perform very well (surprise).

The only card I have changed is adding a 3rd Sorcerous Spyglass, that card is good against the card Sneak Attack and all the planeswalkers in Moon Stompy. It's useful against DnT, Lands and Turbo Depths as well. I also agree that Ratchet Bomb is too slow and I have taken them out of my current 75 to test the deck without the card. Sneak and Show and Moon Stompy are some of our worst MU and I don't see anything currently that effectively deals with Moon Stompy. I talked to a couple of my friends about making the Marit Leige, Griselbrand, and Emrakul MU's better but the only effective thing you can do is go UW for Eldrazi Displacer and Drowner of Hope. However, I have concluded it ends up hurting our good MU, Delver variants, DNT, too much by giving then a color to strip us from. I have also added a 3rd Warping Wail to combat the combo decks. I think you have to accept that those two decks are bad MUs until we get more tools. The good news any new artifacts are potential tools for our colorless deck.

On a side note, I'm hoping during the summer to save up enough money to be able to buy the deck on MODO and start streaming. When I do I will let everyone know here so we can do some streams!

[Manipulato]

Where are you looking for that? Click on the link of current decks I play it should take you to MTG Goldfish, that's my current 75. Don't look at my previous projects those are outdated.



It is too slow and should be a meta call not a staple for this deck. Maybe if you have a ton of DnT in your meta but I don't think it's an auto include like most people have been doing lately.



Personally I disagree with bringing in any cards agains Grixis Delver. I can see an argument when you're on the play to bring it in, but I just don't think anything is worth bringing out. From my testing for the current meta and the late 2016 I never saw Thorn to be an effective card against Delver. It's possible you opponents are playing sub par and not looking for the optimal opening hand, which should be 2 threats 2 lands at least 1 cantrip at least 1 interaction spell for the board and anything else. Like I said its' a horrible late game card and sometimes you'll have a Thorn and they have a flipped Delver, or a DRS to mitigate the taxing effect or an Angler. I'm just not a fan, and with a 70% win loss against the deck I don't want to experiment and potentially alter my success.



The only card I have changed is adding a 3rd Sorcerous Spyglass, that card is good against the card Sneak Attack and all the planeswalkers in Moon Stompy. It's useful against DnT, Lands and Turbo Depths as well. I also agree that Ratchet Bomb is too slow and I have taken them out of my current 75 to test the deck without the card. Sneak and Show and Moon Stompy are some of our worst MU and I don't see anything currently that effectively deals with Moon Stompy. I talked to a couple of my friends about making the Marit Leige, Griselbrand, and Emrakul MU's better but the only effective thing you can do is go UW for Eldrazi Displacer and Drowner of Hope. However, I have concluded it ends up hurting our good MU, Delver variants, DNT, too much by giving then a color to strip us from. I have also added a 3rd Warping Wail to combat the combo decks. I think you have to accept that those two decks are bad MUs until we get more tools. The good news any new artifacts are potential tools for our colorless deck.

On a side note, I'm hoping during the summer to save up enough money to be able to buy the deck on MODO and start streaming. When I do I will let everyone know here so we can do some streams!

Hi,
I builded the deck lately and I wanted to ask you what you think about the builds with 2 All is Dust in the MD? I saw such lists doing well here and there. I'm personally afraid that this is just way to risky and greedy especially in Wasteland MU's like Delver & DnT. I think its only good when someone expects tons of 4c Czech Pile, BUG Midrange and Miracles...

What would you think about removing the 2 Oblivion Sower and replace them with the 3rd+4th Endbringer? He has no immediate effect and no fat 8 toughness butt but he's also really good in grindy MU's, also a cc6 Eldrazi dude, hard to deal with and super flexible. I love it to attack with him and then draw a extra card EOT or ping some Strixes, SCM, Elves or DnT guys...He also can keep in check the Marit Large token...

Are you still happy with the 2 Karakas in your 75? How often were they the game winner in needed MU's?

Would love to hear your thoughts here.

Greetings

[Darkness]

Hi,
I builded the deck lately and I wanted to ask you what you think about the builds with 2 All is Dust in the MD? I saw such lists doing well here and there. I'm personally afraid that this is just way to risky and greedy especially in Wasteland MU's like Delver & DnT. I think its only good when someone expects tons of 4c Czech Pile, BUG Midrange and Miracles...

I agree it does seems to greedy. You will never cast them against the Delver or Death and Taxes decks, they do nothing against the Combo decks, and seem like overkill against the control decks, which you already have a good MU against. Just like Ballista, it's a meta call. If your LGS is full of Czech pile and Miracles go for it but at a GP, on MODO, or in an unknown meta the risk it too high. Personally, I only play one since drawing 2 is overkill. The games go long enough that you will see it and you only need to cast it once to win the game.

What would you think about removing the 2 Oblivion Sower and replace them with the 3rd+4th Endbringer? He has no immediate effect and no fat 8 toughness butt but he's also really good in grindy MU's, also a cc6 Eldrazi dude, hard to deal with and super flexible. I love it to attack with him and then draw a extra card EOT or ping some Strixes, SCM, Elves or DnT guys...He also can keep in check the Marit Large token...

Endbringer is an interesting card. Way back in the day when Goyf's were king vs this deck a 5/5 wasn't enough to take over the Goyf the game. That still stands true today. Goyf's and Gurmag Angler's challenge this card straight up. He can generate advantage in grindy games and can stop a huge monster threat however the lack of an immediate effect in such a potent format like legacy leads me to try to diversify. The reason I choose the Split between the Sower and Endbringer is because Sower allows you to brick wall against the Angler and Goyf Matchups and gives you immediate value with potential card advantage. In my eyes if Endbringer lives you get actual and virtual card advantage with his abilities but the point with Sower is to guarantee an inevitable live Eye of Ugin, bringing out fatty after fatty each turn and overwhelming your opponent through removal. In regards to the Marit Liege or Sneak and Show MU against Endbringer, they have many ways to playaround it. A smart Show and Tell player will ensure they Show and tell an Omniscience or a Sneak Attack to guarantee a push with their Emrakul, making Endbringer useless. Against a Lands player, they will just land lock us plus Tabernacle to kill our Endbringer and then combo, and Turbo Depths can use Sylvan Safekeeper to counter the Endbriner activation or they just make a 20/20 on turn two and kill us . I do like Endbringer but I don't want 4 in my 75. As mentioned, I don't see a reliable card to battle huge 20/20 or 15/15 unless you go into UW and then you mess with your Delver MU, which is favored for us. In such a diverse format each deck will have bad MUs that have little to no correction without vastly altering your 75. In my opinion those decks are the MU where we can't do much, except to play tight and hope to get a lucky.

Are you still happy with the 2 Karakas in your 75? How often were they the game winner in needed MU's? I do like the Karakas in my 75 both to assist with the MU I Just described in the paragraph above and as random utility against Thalias or Leovolds. They are here to stay for me.

One last emphasis on my take of our "Bad Match Ups" and my acceptance to not do much to improve them.

ANT TES Belcher. Go take a look at my spreadsheet, those MU are basically free wins. I think I've lost to ANT once, 0 to TES and 0 to Belcher. We are their "Sneak and Show, Lands, Moon Stompy" There really isn't much they can do to vastly improve the match up against us. Why is that? Well it's simple. We are playing a game that doesn't interact with that they are doing. They have no creatures or removal to get rid of TKS, they have no counters against Chalice of the Void. Our game plan just so happens to accidentally counter theirs. No one planned that, it just happened to work out that way due to the nature of our cards. Thats exactly what Lands, Turbo Depths, Moon Stompy and Sneak and Show does to us. They are playing a game that just so happens to naturally ignore or disregard what we are doing and execute their game plan uninterrupted. That's my 2 cents on that topic. I do want to make those MU better but I don't see a feasible way without either changing are deck into Eldrazi Post or going UW and messing with our good MU. We either accept them as bad MU, change our deck, or wait till new cards get printed that will help us attack their game plan.

P.S. Would anyone at all be interested in me streaming on Cockatrice? If so send me a Private Message so I can tally it up and coordinate it.

[Manipulato]

I agree it does seems to greedy. You will never cast them against the Delver or Death and Taxes decks, they do nothing against the Combo decks, and seem like overkill against the control decks, which you already have a good MU against. Just like Ballista, it's a meta call. If your LGS is full of Czech pile and Miracles go for it but at a GP, on MODO, or in an unknown meta the risk it too high. Personally, I only play one since drawing 2 is overkill. The games go long enough that you will see it and you only need to cast it once to win the game.



Endbringer is an interesting card. Way back in the day when Goyf's were king vs this deck a 5/5 wasn't enough to take over the Goyf the game. That still stands true today. Goyf's and Gurmag Angler's challenge this card straight up. He can generate advantage in grindy games and can stop a huge monster threat however the lack of an immediate effect in such a potent format like legacy leads me to try to diversify. The reason I choose the Split between the Sower and Endbringer is because Sower allows you to brick wall against the Angler and Goyf Matchups and gives you immediate value with potential card advantage. In my eyes if Endbringer lives you get actual and virtual card advantage with his abilities but the point with Sower is to guarantee an inevitable live Eye of Ugin, bringing out fatty after fatty each turn and overwhelming your opponent through removal. In regards to the Marit Liege or Sneak and Show MU against Endbringer, they have many ways to playaround it. A smart Show and Tell player will ensure they Show and tell an Omniscience or a Sneak Attack to guarantee a push with their Emrakul, making Endbringer useless. Against a Lands player, they will just land lock us plus Tabernacle to kill our Endbringer and then combo, and Turbo Depths can use Sylvan Safekeeper to counter the Endbriner activation or they just make a 20/20 on turn two and kill us . I do like Endbringer but I don't want 4 in my 75. As mentioned, I don't see a reliable card to battle huge 20/20 or 15/15 unless you go into UW and then you mess with your Delver MU, which is favored for us. In such a diverse format each deck will have bad MUs that have little to no correction without vastly altering your 75. In my opinion those decks are the MU where we can't do much, except to play tight and hope to get a lucky.

Are you still happy with the 2 Karakas in your 75? How often were they the game winner in needed MU's? I do like the Karakas in my 75 both to assist with the MU I Just described in the paragraph above and as random utility against Thalias or Leovolds. They are here to stay for me.

One last emphasis on my take of our "Bad Match Ups" and my acceptance to not do much to improve them.

ANT TES Belcher. Go take a look at my spreadsheet, those MU are basically free wins. I think I've lost to ANT once, 0 to TES and 0 to Belcher. We are their "Sneak and Show, Lands, Moon Stompy" There really isn't much they can do to vastly improve the match up against us. Why is that? Well it's simple. We are playing a game that doesn't interact with that they are doing. They have no creatures or removal to get rid of TKS, they have no counters against Chalice of the Void. Our game plan just so happens to accidentally counter theirs. No one planned that, it just happened to work out that way due to the nature of our cards. Thats exactly what Lands, Turbo Depths, Moon Stompy and Sneak and Show does to us. They are playing a game that just so happens to naturally ignore or disregard what we are doing and execute their game plan uninterrupted. That's my 2 cents on that topic. I do want to make those MU better but I don't see a feasible way without either changing are deck into Eldrazi Post or going UW and messing with our good MU. We either accept them as bad MU, change our deck, or wait till new cards get printed that will help us attack their game plan.

P.S. Would anyone at all be interested in me streaming on Cockatrice? If so send me a Private Message so I can tally it up and coordinate it.

Thx for your detailed answer. I´m really looking forward to see your new updated sideboard guide! A twitch or MTGO stream would be cooler for me personally but every content you give us is welcomed.

Greetings

[Eldariel]

ANT TES Belcher. Go take a look at my spreadsheet, those MU are basically free wins. I think I've lost to ANT once, 0 to TES and 0 to Belcher. We are their "Sneak and Show, Lands, Moon Stompy" There really isn't much they can do to vastly improve the match up against us. Why is that? Well it's simple. We are playing a game that doesn't interact with that they are doing. They have no creatures or removal to get rid of TKS, they have no counters against Chalice of the Void. Our game plan just so happens to accidentally counter theirs. No one planned that, it just happened to work out that way due to the nature of our cards. Thats exactly what Lands, Turbo Depths, Moon Stompy and Sneak and Show does to us. They are playing a game that just so happens to naturally ignore or disregard what we are doing and execute their game plan uninterrupted. That's my 2 cents on that topic. I do want to make those MU better but I don't see a feasible way without either changing are deck into Eldrazi Post or going UW and messing with our good MU. We either accept them as bad MU, change our deck, or wait till new cards get printed that will help us attack their game plan.

Eh, while the fact that the MU is good is true, I wouldn't quite say "nobody planned that". When designing the Chalice Aggro shell in the first place, the power against TES, Iggy Pop and Solidarity/High Tide was high up the list of reasons to play the shell in the first place. TKS of course further reinforces this already robust angle of attack but the good match-up is certainly by design in the very core of the "Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/X accelerants + Chalice of the Void-shell" and one of the reasons to play those decks (the other big thing is of course the power you can leverage against cantrip-heavy blue decks but those by nature have more tools to work around it, being tailored to have the tools to fight anything).

[grokh]

Haven't seen it discussed here yet, coulf be this land interesting for Eldrazi ?

It gives you a scry 1 and produces <> mana

[Darkness]

Eh, while the fact that the MU is good is true, I wouldn't quite say "nobody planned that". When designing the Chalice Aggro shell in the first place, the power against TES, Iggy Pop and Solidarity/High Tide was high up the list of reasons to play the shell in the first place. TKS of course further reinforces this already robust angle of attack but the good match-up is certainly by design in the very core of the "Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/X accelerants + Chalice of the Void-shell" and one of the reasons to play those decks (the other big thing is of course the power you can leverage against cantrip-heavy blue decks but those by nature have more tools to work around it, being tailored to have the tools to fight anything).

I was not playing legacy back then consistently so thank you for the history of the stompy decks. My point was that our game plan, which is a meta deck, naturally counters certain decks just as other deck naturally counter ours and there is little we can do to fix this.

Haven't seen it discussed here yet, coulf be this land interesting for Eldrazi ?

It gives you a scry 1 and produces <> mana

I don't think this card is worth using. If scry 1 is said to be worth half of a card, then Mishra's Factory, which is the only land I could see being replaced by this card, is certainly worth more than half of a card, so I don't see how this can fit into our current mana base. If anyone tries it I'd love to hear their results.

[themtgzealot]

Got another 5-0 last night with Darkness's MD

Changed the SB a little 3 Glass 2 Warping Wail 4 Thorn no Ratchet bombs.

Been meaning to test the new Karn but not got round to it yet.

[Darkness]

Got another 5-0 last night with Darkness's MD

Changed the SB a little 3 Glass 2 Warping Wail 4 Thorn no Ratchet bombs.

Been meaning to test the new Karn but not got round to it yet.

I've done about 20 or so MU without the Bombs and I haven't missed them at all. I am on 3 Spyglasses as well and haven't looked back. I will try my best this week to get the Side-boarding Guide up ASAP, been busy with Family and such.

[themtgzealot]

I've done about 20 or so MU without the Bombs and I haven't missed them at all. I am on 3 Spyglasses as well and haven't looked back. I will try my best this week to get the Side-boarding Guide up ASAP, been busy with Family and such.

On tender hooks here :)

[ParisFlorian]

I agree. I'm going to test without and see if my non prison deck MU become significantly better. I feel it's the worst card in the board and is basically a sacred cow due to E Bridge. but it takes 4 turns to remove 1 Ebridge and if we haven't already spewed our hand before a blood moon we probably have no creatures. I'm not saying I am correct yet I'm just trying out new things. It's possible I will revert back after I gather data to support my new hypothesis.

Another option against Bridge is World Breaker. I play 1 in SB, and I can reliably cast it thanks to 4 Cavern and 3 Elvish spirit guides.
It is also an effective answer to Moat, or even Blood Moon / Back to basics.
It is not as easy as Ratchet bomb to cast, but it acts immediately (you don't have to fear an Abrade, Decay or whatever kills it during 4 turns). And it is fetchable with an Eye on board.

Florian

[bakofried]

I've been having fun with D&T lately, but goddamn if I don't have the urge to (Reality) Smash some sons 'a bitches. C'mon, Darkness, where's your sideboard guide?

(I'll pilot this at next week's local).

[Darkness]

Another option against Bridge is World Breaker. I play 1 in SB, and I can reliably cast it thanks to 4 Cavern and 3 Elvish spirit guides.
It is also an effective answer to Moat, or even Blood Moon / Back to basics.
It is not as easy as Ratchet bomb to cast, but it acts immediately (you don't have to fear an Abrade, Decay or whatever kills it during 4 turns). And it is fetchable with an Eye on board.

Florian

I've already stated that I don't plan on going the colorless splash for various reasons But yes that is an option though not a good one as it is a one of.

I've been having fun with D&T lately, but goddamn if I don't have the urge to (Reality) Smash some sons 'a bitches. C'mon, Darkness, where's your sideboard guide?

(I'll pilot this at next week's local).

Super sorry, life is happening new job opportunities and school, finals end this week. Thursday guys, hold me to it I'm going to have it up Thursday. Also about 60 Matches deep without the Bombs and my WL has gone up by 4% compared to the previous 75 with Ratchet Bomb. If anyone wants to be apart of the process live LMK I can give you my discord and we can do an audio channel to discuss it. Again, this is for Thursday.