[Primer] Eldrazi Stompy

[Riehu]

What do you normally sideboard in the combo against? What cards do you take out for the combo pieces?

I feel like bringing in the combo vs Miracles is overkill?

I wonder if the combo is good against lands?

Vs Miracles I remove Jittes, Crucibles, 1 SSG and Matter Reshapers bringing in combo + 2 Ratchet Bombs. At least I feel it gives an additional angle in that matchup as well while we get rid of cards that are no good against them.

Lands plays Krosan Grips but starting with Leyline slows them down. I have not had a chance to test this. If someone has a Lands deck, I would like to test the matchup. Just PM me here or modo.

[Barook]

Played the Helm list, except with 4 Cavern and 3 Factories instead of 4 Wasteland for budget reasons. 4-1'ed, only lost the finals to Esper Mentor who had a ludicrous good draw G3:

I had T0 Leyline, T1 Chalice and Helm ready for the T3 kill, but nope, FoW on CotV, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy on Helm, StP my Smasher, followed up by 3 (!) Mentors with cantrips into Jace. I MAD.

[CovenantElite30]

Vs Miracles I remove Jittes, Crucibles, 1 SSG and Matter Reshapers bringing in combo + 2 Ratchet Bombs. At least I feel it gives an additional angle in that matchup as well while we get rid of cards that are no good against them.

Lands plays Krosan Grips but starting with Leyline slows them down. I have not had a chance to test this. If someone has a Lands deck, I would like to test the matchup. Just PM me here or modo.

I see in your list your playing main board Crucible of Worlds instead of Thorn of Amethyst, is this because of the combo in the sideboard?

I've completely removed Crucible of Worlds from my deck, I found it to be too slow and clunky.

Do you think Thorn of Amethyst is just bad with the combo?

[Riehu]

I see in your list your playing main board Crucible of Worlds instead of Thorn of Amethyst, is this because of the combo in the sideboard?

I've completely removed Crucible of Worlds from my deck, I found it to be too slow and clunky.

Do you think Thorn of Amethyst is just bad with the combo?

I have had mixed feelings with Crucible, at times it's great and other times clunky.

I have only played 0-2 Thorns lately as I haven't felt the need for those. Also as you bring up, the combo would not work that well together with Amethysts.

What matchups do you think Thorns are good for?

[CovenantElite30]

I have had mixed feelings with Crucible, at times it's great and other times clunky.

I have only played 0-2 Thorns lately as I haven't felt the need for those. Also as you bring up, the combo would not work that well together with Amethysts.

What matchups do you think Thorns are good for?

In my testing (I play mostly paper and not online) I found Thorn to be good against Miracles, Burn, Storm, Dredge, can slow down shardless a bit.

Overall I've liked having Thorn. I actually play 2 Thorns and 1 Trinisphere in my list.

My deck plays 25 lands so removing Crucible didn't really affect my version all that much.

I guess in a land heavy meta Crucible would be fine. I almost wanted to start playing 1 main deck Waste, but haven't committed to the idea yet.

[Riehu]

In my testing (I play mostly paper and not online) I found Thorn to be good against Miracles, Burn, Storm, Dredge, can slow down shardless a bit.

Overall I've liked having Thorn. I actually play 2 Thorns and 1 Trinisphere in my list.

My deck plays 25 lands so removing Crucible didn't really affect my version all that much.

I guess in a land heavy meta Crucible would be fine. I almost wanted to start playing 1 main deck Waste, but haven't committed to the idea yet.

Could you post your list and how you sideboard. I think sideboarding (both play and draw) hasn't been discussed too much. Would be a good start.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Played the Helm list, except with 4 Cavern and 3 Factories instead of 4 Wasteland for budget reasons. 4-1'ed, only lost the finals to Esper Mentor who had a ludicrous good draw G3:

I had T0 Leyline, T1 Chalice and Helm ready for the T3 kill, but nope, FoW on CotV, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy on Helm, StP my Smasher, followed up by 3 (!) Mentors with cantrips into Jace. I MAD.

I'm going to give the helm testing a try too. I thought it was strange and a little clunky but the recent success with it intrigues me.

Barook were you on the white list you posted yesterday? I really like your updated version but curious where you made room for the combo. I assume you cut the blade plan to try it out .?

[Barook]

I'm going to give the helm testing a try too. I thought it was strange and a little clunky but the recent success with it intrigues me.

Barook were you on the white list you posted yesterday? I really like your updated version but curious where you made room for the combo. I assume you cut the blade plan to try it out .?

The 4-1 result was with the Colorless list from Japan. I might try the white variant once I have enough data.

[CovenantElite30]

Could you post your list and how you sideboard. I think sideboarding (both play and draw) hasn't been discussed too much. Would be a good start.

I splash red in my list. My meta is very different at my local store.

Lots of Miracles, Elves, DnT and Goblins. Eldrazi Obligator helps a lot against miracles, they tend to bring in Bloodmoon.

I would like to add your Helm combo to my sideboard.

The sideboard changes I would make to my current list to add the combo would be:
-1 Endbringer
-1 Dismember
-2 Phyrexian Revoker

+1 Leyline of the Void
+3 Helm

Any suggestions for my list and sideboard changes would be great.


Current List:

Creatures:
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
3 Eldrazi Obligator
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
1 Endbringer

Spells:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Endbringer
2 Dismember

[Riehu]

I splash red in my list. My meta is very different at my local store.

Lots of Miracles, Elves, DnT and Goblins. Eldrazi Obligator helps a lot against miracles, they tend to bring in Bloodmoon.

I would like to add your Helm combo to my sideboard.

The sideboard changes I would make to my current list to add the combo would be:
-1 Endbringer
-1 Dismember
-2 Phyrexian Revoker

+1 Leyline of the Void
+3 Helm

Any suggestions for my list and sideboard changes would be great.


Current List:

Creatures:
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
3 Eldrazi Obligator
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
1 Endbringer

Spells:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Endbringer
2 Dismember

How has the Wasteland been for you with that meta? Have you tried going deeper RG with World Breaker and Kozilek's Return (+ Karplusan Forest) even in the MD? Also given the meta you have I would remove Thorns from the MD. Feels like I would have more removal instead or 2nd Jitte. And instead of SSG you could play ESG to be able to cast World Breaker under Blood Moon.

[Barook]

I toyed around a bit with the white splash RiP kill - if it's the real deal, I would throw out the remaining 2 Leylines and replace them with E-Tutors since those can find both parts of the combo, making it a more reliable kill. Yes, Tutor clashes with Chalice @1, I'm aware of that, but I actually like to cast my stuff instead of it sitting dead in my hand. I would also most likely need more white sources to support it, probably cutting the remaining two Factories for Caves of Koilos (which would bring my regular white sources to the magical number 13).

[Cire]

Regarding white splash for around 2 non-eldrazi Main deck cards - I think the consensus average is around 10 main deck white sources not including caverns. I am going to assume the same is true for any other color.

As such I think in the red splash the 8 sources of red for Obligator are too little, since 2 of those are fast temp mana, and you are running 3 obligators. Compare to the above analysis of white splash. Yes, it talks about non-cavern sources, but still the total amount of sources was at least 9-11. You are only running 8. Additionally, why the lone trinisphere? I sort of feel the idea of prison pieces are "I must get this turn 1" (and thus running a full set of 8) or "Meh, COTV is good enough for me"

@ Rhoxwarmonk: regarding White Splash with sub splash for Worldbreaker and second subsplash for Toxic Deluge - I think it could be done but then you will need to replace Wastelands/Factories:

As long as you're okay with that you can do something like this with 27 cards which I think can be trimmed:

4 Caverns
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eye
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg
2 Green/Black Dual/Painland
2 White/Black Dual/Painland
3 Mox Diamond

[RhoxWarMonk]

Regarding white splash for around 2 non-eldrazi Main deck cards - I think the consensus average is around 10 main deck white sources not including caverns. I am going to assume the same is true for any other color.

As such I think in the red splash the 8 sources of red for Obligator are too little, since 2 of those are fast temp mana, and you are running 3 obligators. Compare to the above analysis of white splash. Yes, it talks about non-cavern sources, but still the total amount of sources was at least 9-11. You are only running 8. Additionally, why the lone trinisphere? I sort of feel the idea of prison pieces are "I must get this turn 1" (and thus running a full set of 8) or "Meh, COTV is good enough for me"

@ Rhoxwarmonk: regarding White Splash with sub splash for Worldbreaker and second subsplash for Toxic Deluge - I think it could be done but then you will need to replace Wastelands/Factories:

As long as you're okay with that you can do something like this with 27 cards which I think can be trimmed:

4 Caverns
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eye
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg
2 Green/Black Dual/Painland
2 White/Black Dual/Painland
3 Mox Diamond

Thanks for your post, Ive been crunching the numbers myself on dual colors but I still think it might be a little too greedy. So right now, I'm planning to playtest what Barook was having success with, only with the LotV/Helm combo in the side. I really like the idea of the white splash but I also don't know if it's better to just stick with the colorless version and not try to branch out too much. I've had a good deal of success with the colorless build but I think I have to cut Trinisphere. While a great card and absolutely BONKERS in some matchups, the fact it's a nobo with the Eye of Ugin and makes Dismember borderline unusable kills it for me personally.

I feel going with 4x CotV and 2x Thorns is enough for lock pieces, maybe Ill add the Trinisphere in the board because the decks it's good against, it's REALLY good but I have often found I'd draw one late and I'd wish it was almost anything else.

Also going back up to 2x Jitte main as well - been splitting 1 MD/1 SB but they have been great for me.

Side question, how is everyone finding Warping Wail? At first, it felt very narrow and I wasn't liking it but after more testing, I'm really warming up to it. I'm playing with 2x currently and considering moving up to a 3rd. Is anyone else having success with it?

[CovenantElite30]

Thanks for your post, Ive been crunching the numbers myself on dual colors but I still think it might be a little too greedy. So right now, I'm planning to playtest what Barook was having success with, only with the LotV/Helm combo in the side. I really like the idea of the white splash but I also don't know if it's better to just stick with the colorless version and not try to branch out too much. I've had a good deal of success with the colorless build but I think I have to cut Trinisphere. While a great card and absolutely BONKERS in some matchups, the fact it's a nobo with the Eye of Ugin and makes Dismember borderline unusable kills it for me personally.

I feel going with 4x CotV and 2x Thorns is enough for lock pieces, maybe Ill add the Trinisphere in the board because the decks it's good against, it's REALLY good but I have often found I'd draw one late and I'd wish it was almost anything else.

Also going back up to 2x Jitte main as well - been splitting 1 MD/1 SB but they have been great for me.

Side question, how is everyone finding Warping Wail? At first, it felt very narrow and I wasn't liking it but after more testing, I'm really warming up to it. I'm playing with 2x currently and considering moving up to a 3rd. Is anyone else having success with it?

I currently play 3 Warping Wail main and love it. It mostly shines Vs Miracles where you can counter there Terminus. But I've also done the end of turn make a dude play and equip Jitte and go to town with the beats.

I've found its very good Vs shardless, kills their annoying strix and deathrite, counters their hymn which can completely kill our hand.

Love it Vs Elves, basically kills and counters everything they are trying to do.

I mean at it's very worst its a colorless 1/1 with flash.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I currently play 3 Warping Wail main and love it. It mostly shines Vs Miracles where you can counter there Terminus. But I've also done the end of turn make a dude play and equip Jitte and go to town with the beats.

I've found its very good Vs shardless, kills their annoying strix and deathrite, counters their hymn which can completely kill our hand.

Love it Vs Elves, basically kills and counters everything they are trying to do.

I mean at it's very worst its a colorless 1/1 with flash.

Great points, thanks for your input --- one thing that turned me off the Warping Wail a little in my own testing was leaving the 2 mana open. I was always stuck between playing a lock piece, playing a threat or keeping mana up for a Wail in fear of a problematic sorcery coming in. I guess, it's completely dependant on the matchup and perhaps I just need more experience with the deck but that's what I was struggling with.

I think I'll up the count on my own deck, just so I have more of a chance to draw it so I can test it out. Also, I feel like a noob but why have I never thought about using it as a 1/1 w/flash and then dropping a Jitte for the beats...?! That seems like a great play, especially against something like Miracles which likely doesn't want to blow a Terminus or a StP on a 1/1 colorless token.

[Cire]

Thanks for your post, Ive been crunching the numbers myself on dual colors but I still think it might be a little too greedy.?

It's very greedy. But for fun I made this list and am going to test it out for a bit. (Of note, including sideboard this splashes 3 colors! Only 4 lock pieces! Three Jitte's to offset some of the life loss from the lands/deluge):

CWGb test list

-25 Lands
4 Caverns of souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Cave of Koilos
1 Karakas

- 13 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

- 22 Creatures
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 World Breaker
1 Endbringer

SB (Note: haven't seen reanimator/Dredge in a while for whatever reason)

3 Containment Priest
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Endbringer

[Barook]

After testing it a bit, the E-Tutor RiP Helmet idea doesn't seem to great so far, at least not against Miracles. It takes to many slots to the point where you have to cut actual threats. Not a fan of that.

@Cire: 4 Moxen is excessive. I would never run more than 2. Better run some Lotus Petals instead. Same goes for 3 Jitte.

[Cire]

@Cire: 4 Moxen is excessive. I would never run more than 2. Better run some Lotus Petals instead. Same goes for 3 Jitte.

Yeah - it's just a test list - i fully expect for it to be tweaked or thrown away. The initial idea was for Jitte to offset life loss and the Moxen, with the 25 lands, to support a potential game 2 where you have Toxic Deluge, Containment Priest, Displacer and World Breaker all in the deck, and I judge that temp mana may not be enough to support all that.

[Riehu]

Turn 1 kill on the draw :D (don't seem to know how to make it visible here)

http://postimg.org/image/chj55tyhx/

[kingtk3]

Turn 1 kill on the draw :D (don't seem to know how to make it visible here)

http://postimg.org/image/chj55tyhx/

how did you manage to put helm into play and activate it on turn 1?

EDIT: I see, opponent played S&T... cool