I have empathy for both sides of this argument, but ultimately I think the Eldrazi deck is stupid and tt's the power level of the Eldrazi creatures, plus the sudden utility of the extra sol lands the deck can use, that are the culprit, NOT Chalice.
If you are playing this format, you have to be able to beat a chalice on 1 or accept that you will lose to it and move on, because you also have to be able to beat Countertop lock which has been the most dominant deck for like three years now. And you have had to respect Chalice because it will always have some sort of presence, whether it's MUD or Dragon Stompy or Tezzeret or Aggro Loam. So I agree with the people who say that if you can't beat it, that's on you, because it is a known commodity.
But traditionally, people who have been able to beat a Chalice have been rewarded for doing so in those matchups. The issue with the Eldrazi deck is that even if you play around chalice or can beat it, you are by definition on a slower game plan, and the efficiency and power level of the Eldrazi creatures coupled with the no-downsides ramp they are able to employ mean you will simply die to that.
Eldrazi basically gets to play the game in a time warp compared to other fair strategies. That pushes people toward playing either other prison strategies that go after the Eldrazi weaknesses, or very fast strategies that try to win as soon as possible. The end result is that you have a format where interaction is punished. This is one of the biggest complaints on this board about Modern. Legacy has issues with card portability and availability that will prevent it from devolving into all Eldrazi as quickly as Modern did, but at least in Modern you know Wizards will do something. Here, I'm not so sure.
IMO the poster child for the problem is the card Reality Smasher. It is basically a Lava Axe with upside every turn. I've beaten a Chalice out of Eldrazi -- I have yet to beat this card. In fact, when they play a Chalice, I usually breathe a sigh of relief because I will probably get to make a third land drop before dying. But then again, I usually have a plan to beat Chalice, because it's always been a real card and has enough in common with Counterbalance that together they demand an answer in your 75.
Sure, there are a lot of cards that make Smasher more annoying: Mimic makes it 10 coming across on turn 3, TKS can strip whatever tech you come up with, and Chalice can blank your STP + extraneous card if that was your plan. However none of these cards, without the threat of a Lava Axe on legs, are crushing.
I feel like Reality Smasher is Legacy's Lodestone Golem -- it comes down way above curve, protects itself, and synergizes incredibly well with another powerful card set. But even if Reality Smasher was Lodestone Golem... I would take that. No trample, still can bolt it for 2 mana, dies to Ancient Grudge, QPM, blockers... but as is, you basically hold your breath every draw step. No thanks.
Edit: Forgot to actually say why I think all this is bad. I think the Eldrazi deck shuts the door on fringe decks/nonblue decks just as much as it does on blue decks. So if you think that the key to breaking up blue's dominance is this ... forget it. Most nonblue decks also run 1CC spells and also lack the ability to ramp into insane creatures without a little bit more time than is available. You think spending a turn casting Thoughtseize is going to work against this monstrosity?
As long as Brainstorm + fetches are in Legacy, blue decks will always be best equipped to deal with new threats. The format is currently 17% Chalice, 55% Brainstorm. That leaves about a quarter of the format for everything else -- oh and Rishadan Port decks (Lands, D&T) are a third of that.
In fact to some extent I agree with both of you even with Dice_Box... I see no problem in losing T1 to Dredge, Storm, or someone T1 CotV/Moon that's the game we are playing... but I'd not like it to be the norm.... I agree you can improve your chances by tuning your MD/SB according to your chances of playing X and Y this happens all the time, there is a skill in that and that's great... but... what I do mind that out of a sudden pack of debilitated steroid aliens run out of the gates and a beermat can beat you with it... cards have shown through last 5 years which changed the face of the format more or less, I haven't liked most of them and I agree present decks can adjust to the beermat's evil schemes, will adjust, some things get better some worse as happend with DiG, TC and other stuff like DRS, Thalia, Delver...Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
will the game be better after? do I enjoy it? do I enjoy the process getting there? I'm asking myself these questions and my answer is... no... for reasons mentioned in the first post
after all it comes down to the personal opinion and I'm rather fighting DiG and Cruises (yet I have never cast 1 in Legacy) than something that is directly opposite to what I identify Legacy with
obv. you can bitch as you like, in fact I don't care, I've played Lands too... you missed the point, it's not matter of this discussion I just don't believe your Storm MU is that bad to be worth bitching about, if I've come to ~50/50 MU in 2011 with a glacialy slow deck in a LGS, I believe you can do the same in 2016 having agency over your deck this metagame...
-------------------
edit - so this turns into another BS shitstorm now feat. CotV, which it wasn't about in the first place... oh wait, it's The Brainstorm show... fine, time to go, have fun
It's so refreshing to see many people that were dismissive of the "the cantrip cartel is oppressive on the format" faction being for once on the other side. And this is just because BS penetration is not 80% anymore of the top meta, but has decreased to what, 60%? I for one remember a legacy like that, and i liked it way more than the last 3-4 year's one.
Since Eldrazi became a things, the format has changed considerably. With storm weak to all those eldrazi lists, midrange creature lists which destroy eldrazi and are favored vs miracle are getting a lot of play again. Confidant is a card that i see regularly again. Land has become the new probably top deck of the format, and it's not blue. Miracle lists are playing Moats and many decks are playing Ensnaring bridge. Shardless is now the probably the best positioned blue-based deck, and Delver presence has reduced to Grixis 4-c delver with pyromancers and Anglers to be able to interact with eventual chalices instead of playing 38 1-drops, 4 dazes and 18 lands.
It's a legitimate miracle.
My point with that line specifically was just to say that the combo itself is an exercise in masturbation. Setting it up takes skill and effort, and I don't want to diminish that.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
I crunched some numbers on the representation of Brainstorm decks in the meta today, and this discussion seems as good a place as any to dump it. So, no real message behind my post, just some information I found.
TC Decks gives points for the tournament's number of rounds and the number of rounds won in the top 8. I went to the month, added up the number of points garnered by decks with Brainstorm, and divided it by the total number of points.
August 2015, right before the DTT ban: Decks with Brainstorm get 69.5% of the points
December 2015, right before Oath of the Gatewatch: Decks with Brainstorm get 71% of the points
So far in March 2016: Decks with Brainstorm get 51.5% of the points
Oh sweet Lord, we're in a time warp. I actually remember when Legacy was only 50% blue, and I thought nothing short of taking a pack of the best U/x cards out back and shooting them could bring that back. This is the most interesting meta since probably 2011. I will note that that 50% blue meta is what Legacy is to me, and the format has become worse with each passing year (until now).
EDIT: It seems like there are a lot of salty blue players ITT who are unhappy that there is finally a policeman for their excesses.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
Dig Through Time's only crime was being synergistic with what was already the best card quality engine in the format: Brainstorm and friends. Personally I think DTT is a much more interesting card to have around, and if Legacy players weren't addicted to Brainstorm it could be banned and arguments about Chalice would be less heated.
Almost all the share Brainstorm has lost has gone to Chalice of the Void. The vast majority of these new Chalice decks are the Eldrazi deck. I don't think this is the right solution to the blue menace/cantrip cartel. We aren't seeing old favorites resurface or cool engines emerge. Though I guess we're getting that sixth color experience.
Not if my deck is soft to nose-pickers.
If "feel bad" losses are an issue for you, pick a deck that is not soft to the strategies which you personally have issues losing to.
Last edited by Crimhead; 03-28-2016 at 07:21 PM.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com
You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec
Yes and no. While it's true that Eldrazi are taking the Chalice mantle and running with it, a larger effect of that is a bunch of fair decks (which are both resilient to Chalice and good against Delver and Miracles) are getting a chance to shine. While I'm indifferent to the actual Eldrazi deck, it's good to see what doors it's opened by being a presence to contend with.
Last edited by Stuart; 03-28-2016 at 05:07 PM. Reason: nitpicking
I checked on that, and at least so far, what you said isn't the case.
December, 2015:
Decks w/ Brainstorm- 71% of TC Decks points
Decks w/out Brainstorm that aren't Eldrazi- 29% of TC Decks points
March, 2016:
Decks w/ Brainstorm- 51.5% of TC Decks points
Decks w/out Brainstorm that aren't Eldrazi- 39.5% of TC Decks points
Eldrazi decks- 9% of TC Decks points
I was one of those on the reddit thread that slammed him and I think this thread backs me up. The majority of the complaints is that its "easy" its "dumb" and it takes "no skill" Those aren't really valid arguments, its just complaining. If your opponent is such a brain-dead mongoloid just play a distraction spell then jam your brainstorm right into chalice and watch them say "ok" then brainstorm away.
No new arguments have been made since the Eldrazi thread when it LOST the last SCG open, to a brainstorm deck.
Hm, just to make sure it's apples to apples
mtgtop8.com
All 2015 decks: 73% Brainstorm, Chalice of the Void 7%
Last two months: Brainstorm 55%, Chalice 17%
So Brainstorm goes down 18%, and Chalice goes up 10%. I guess that means you're right, but I really don't feel like we're being flooded with new decks besides Eldrazi. I guess one extra non-blue deck every few top 8s adds up, but we didn't exactly get a rush of folks in the False Cure thread when that won an IQ.
Still seems like most legacy players are playing a blue deck or Eldrazi or the best non-blue decks from before this year: Lands and D&T and Elves.
That being said, I took a blue deck to a tournament last weekend after thinking very hard about not doing so for the first time in a year or so. I am not sure if I really got punished, I went 1-1 against Eldrazi, lost the three games where Reality Smasher hit the table and beat Chalice twice.
I guess I'm going to bow out of the discussion though because I'm the only person even arguing that the creatures are the problem and not Chalice.
I don't mean to pile on (and I don't think there's a problem at all), but the idea that the creatures are the problem seems absurd. They can't get through Goyf or Knight reliably, struggle against Liliana, and get absolutely ruined by Baleful Strix. Even Stoneforge Mystic represents a real problem unless they can put Thought-Knot through Cavern. It's ultimately still a Stompy deck, and once you beat their initial hand they're unlikely to topdeck their way back into the game.
I don't think chalice is creating non-games by itself any more than it used to; the real offender is no turn 1 play [chalice on 1] into TKS any turn 2 play you had. At least there is still FoW for one piece of that sequence, but that hand disruption followup is pretty nasty and single-handedly responsible for turning a known annoyance into a winning strategy. It is a small price to pay though to get miracles out of your local meta; and until they ban counterbalance, eldrazi will be a net positive force in the format (its auto-win vs storm making it a negative force in the format).
If the anti-brainstorm (synonymous with anti-FoW) lobby thinks chalice will protect them from the 'belchers' of the format, they're more than welcome to spectate any modern event and see their hypothesis in action. The old spells are what make legacy fun, you're kind of either for the old powerful spells or for new powerful [uninteresting] creatures.
Those are not synonymous. Just saying.
In the end, Eldrazi is a net positive the format since it cuts down the % of Brainstorm decks while also increasing the number of nonblue, non-Eldrazi decks in the format that counter Eldrazi (e.g. Lands, various midrange decks).
Outside of Tezzerator and Merfolk, I'm having a hard time coming up with common blue decks that run FoW but not brainstorm (pretty sure legacy splinter twin with chalices still runs brainstorm)...I guess manaless dredge can run it as a sideboard plan?? There are certainly combo decks that run brainstorm without FoW (fins, storm...aluren runs 1 main sometimes), and maybe this is what makes people anti-brainstorm?
It's strange people dislike brainstorm so much, but are happy with FoW when you generally need both to allow FoW to deter 'belchers' effectively. Without quality cantrips, the only real substitute is less color diversity within FoW decks. Maybe it would help to look at brainstorm penetration in the meta by decks without a 1:1 ratio of brainstorms:FoW; then add that number to decks with the 1:1 ratio but which also run Counterbalance and/or Terminus and/or StP. This seems like the brainstorm grouping that is likely responsible for most of the grumbling the card gets. I think it's an oversimplification to say less brainstorms are better for the format until you can statistically prove that the drops are mostly observed in that demographic.
Not a lot of people actually dislike Brainstorm. I think the deal is that people want to see a presence of fair decks that run different tools for consistency.
Yes, we need FoW decks (and by extension cantrip decks) to keep Belcher and Oops from running rampant. But we don't need 70% of the format to be police decks! This has been shown in the past to be true. And personally I don't mind if Belcher pops up every now and again to keep the format honest.
I always defended Legacy when it was 60-75% Brainstorm penetration because I thought the format was robust and diverse despite that concentration. Today Legacy is even more diverse (although admittedly in flux), and I continue to defend it. I have not a lot for sympathy for "feel bad" losses. This is an eternal format.
Last edited by Crimhead; 03-29-2016 at 02:49 PM.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com
You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec
On a completely different note, I really like the look of that Shardstill list. I've always wanted to cram a Vendilion Clique or two into Shardless, and I played Landstill and Dreadstill for years and like the idea of shuffling up Standstills again.
How is the combo match with only 2 Cliques and 4 Forces for maindeck interaction? Do the 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard make those matchups favorable? On the same note, I guess the extra Baleful Strixs and the two Jittes go a long way towards helping the creature-based matchups, and then Disfigure and Toxic Deluge in the sideboard probably make those matchps pretty reasonable.
I'd love to see Liliana of the Veil alongside the Standstills, but maybe that's not practical with the manabase. Interesting list, guys!
InfoNinjas
Yes, Let's talk about Standstill and how awesome it is. I've been running 3x in Merfolk and I love it, I took it to 2 local tournaments, and crushed a Rock deck, 4c Loam deck (those 2 are not great matchups), Miracles, and lost to a Miracles (I made some terrible plays) and lost to a DnT due to a crazy mana screw. Between Standstill and Silvergill Adept I was drawing so many cards, I could over extend and still have more dudes to play. Its great.
I want to give this Shardstill a try but I'm lacking some cards, I'd love to see a new UR or URw Landstill deck. I think Eldrazi kind of opens the door for this as a prevalence of Chalice has decreased the number of turn 1 delvers than kind of makes standstill unplayable before.
I don't think that turn 1 Delver was ever really the thing keeping Standstill down. It took a whole lot of meta shifts to firmly push them out (look at what happened with UR Landstill when Treasure Cruise/UR Delver was everywhere). The thing people seem to have missed recently is that turn 1 Delver or Deathrite, turn 2 Standstill (or Stuff + Standstill) is one hell of an opening. It's best use has morphed into being a tempo play rather than a way for a control deck to seal a lead.
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