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Thread: Gender and Gaming

  1. #21
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    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    While perhaps the op is not the best one to kick start a conversation with, it's one worth having.

    There is a podcast called "The girlfriend bracket" that I think you guys should listen too if you don't think this is not an issue in Magic. I have read articles (I will try and track them down) written by women who play that say they are often uncomfortable at events. The reasons go from looks to questions to borderline abusive behaviour.

    Now while this is stomped out by Wizards like an innocent Lodestone Golem, and really, props to Wizards, it's one of the driving forces that keeps this a mostly male dominated game in the competitive scene.

    This is a real issue, even if this is not a great kick start for the topic.

    Edit.
    Just a though, go to an article about women in MTG and read the comments section. I can wait. Take your time. When you come back, be ready for a talk.

    Edit:
    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...to-debate-this
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  2. #22
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    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    I do agree that a lot of these examples sound extreme and if I had to decide, I would probably think that *some* examples are either made up or blown out of proportion.

    BUT that doesn't mean that the whole issue can't be discussed in the first place. Just because there's no sexism or discrimination at your store or every place you've been to, doesn't mean that there might not be a problem. If you think the article is overplaying its alleged anecdotical evidence, tell us, but don't make the stupid mistake of trying to "invalidate" it with your own stories. That's just stupid and doesn't add anything to the discussion.
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  3. #23

    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    I would be interested in hearing from perspectives of women in different regions of the US, and also in Europe. Curious to see if there are differences...also between types of events perhaps? Or perhaps the problem is way more widespread than I'd like to imagine. I like to think of legacy players as being older, wiser, and more mature. My less-than-handful experience of actual large in-person legacy events is of no value here.

    After hearing these types of posts (and similarly, hearing from a lot of minority activist groups), I'm left wondering...well, what do I do? Just being honest here. I'd like to think I'd be noble enough, and aware enough to notice it happening in front of me, to intervene appropriately in such extreme situations as described in the OP's link.

  4. #24
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    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    Very disgusting and disturbing topic. Do not think this is the norm for the average white male gamer. Apparently, I have never witnessed something like this in my gaming community. If this happened in front of me, I would kick the living shit out of any instigator, cause chivalry means something to some of us. Everyone's been warned, end of discussion.

  5. #25
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    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    I would be interested in hearing from perspectives of women in different regions of the US, and also in Europe.
    While this would be insightful and helpful for people to gain perspective, it is going to prove very difficult for 2 reasons.

    • Legacy, which is the focus of this forum, does not have a large female population.
    • Unless they create a sock-puppet account, sharing their experience will effectively 'out' members who might prefer to keep their gender a private matter.

    The main benefit of discussions like these lie in learning where your own biases and discriminations exist. I like to consider myself open-minded and inclusive of all people, but I'm not. If a woman sits across from me at a large event, the thought of 'easy win' still crosses my mind in the same way it would if it were a 13-year-old boy.
    I grew up in a suburban area where homophobic terms were thrown around casually. I participated in that without even realizing how it turned people into 'others' and fostered an environment where truly hateful speech could be ignored or laughed at.

    But by having the discussion more and more I've learned what I need to work on. I will never be perfect, but I can try to improve myself.

  6. #26
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    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    OK time for a direction shift. Too much of this is hung up on the OP and the title. I am going to point to some other reading material and a podcast.

    Women in Magic by Megan Wolff.

    Women And Magic by Jim Davis.

    Women and Magic: A Rebuttal by Anastacia Tomson.

    (Podcast) Magic the Amateuring Episode 126: Sigh.

    This is all worth a read. The last part is the Blogatog on the whole thing that summed it up well. "I do not see this happening in my store" is not a talking point, it is a statement. The fact is, this does happen and it is an issue. Just because it does not happen in my local store does not change the fact that it does.

    Also on reflection I have seen something like this happen locally. I will not go into details due to privacy and the person in question having an account here (So I will text them and see if they wish to speak for themselves). But just because we do not see it does not mean its not effecting people.

    Also people, really do listen to that podcast.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  7. #27

    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    Much like Ace/Homebrew, I haven't read the OP link because work firewall.

    Just on the basis though of MtG being a game filled with white terrorist, while I find it amusing, there's always grains of truth in the most outlandish statements.

    Anecdotal evidence from the place that would be my LGS if I participated more than twice a year- as a black guy who grew up in the suburbs, I used to get called white a lot. It's a distasteful and annoying show of insensitivity and disrespect. At the LGS, a group of guys I know by face, but not name, were heckling another of their group by calling him, "... so white," etc. The hecklers are white, the heckled is black. I spoke up and they stopped, nothing much of it. Even little gestures between friends can be offensive, the respect border and joking border are blurry. Those hecklers weren't being mean intentionally, they were being douches because they didn't know better.

    And to echo Ace/Homebrew, by and large we're predominately male in this group. Us extrapolating what we think the female members of our playgroups think/feel without having explicitly asked them may be a bridge too far.

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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    Updated the OP so that those behind a firewall can read it.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
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    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  9. #29

    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Also people, really do listen to that podcast.
    I'll try to get it saved and will listen within the week - I've got a giant road trip ahead of me this weekend and plan to download several recent MTG podcasts.

    There are, I believe, a couple of prominent female MtG streamers on twitch. I have heard good things and will try to tune in sometime. Not sure if they ever bring up these topics, but perhaps it comes up through the chat at times.

  10. #30
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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Updated the OP so that those behind a firewall can read it.
    Thank you.



    Most of those comments absolutely sound true. GamerGate validates any of the ones discussing online harassment against women.

    I absolutely believe these two:
    ++++
    It is 2009 and an aboriginal woman is looking at the metal miniatures on the wall. My co-worker helps her as I stock the display shelves.

    “Do you have any models that look like me?” the woman asks.

    “We only have normal models,” my co-worker titters, “I can order you the noble savage.”

    The woman leaves. We never see her again.
    ++++
    It is 2010 and a young black man with a backpack is talking to me about the comparative merits of Pathfinder vs D&D 4th Edition. I tell him we have drop in games and wave him over to a group currently playing.

    “Sup, my n*****!” the white men shout.

    I apologise but the man is already out the door. I report the incident to the owner.

    “I’m not throwing away good customers just because someone is oversensitive.”
    ++++
    I completely get how a statement like "The prominence of white male terrorism in the geek community is obvious to everyone except straight white men." could keep some people from reading further. But a lot of those comments ring true for many people.

  11. #31
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    Re: White Male Privilege in Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    While I don't disagree that inappropriate comments in LGSes happen, because they most certainly do, there is no way that a cop would call a crying rape victim a slut and hang up on her. I stopped reading there, so I don't know if there are more falsified experiences.
    There's no way you can say this with any degree of certainty. There are more than enough documented cases of police malfeasance to make such an experience possible.

    http://deadspin.com/report-police-ch...lec-1768931617

    ^ That's just the latest in a twisted tale of police gaslighting alleged sexual assault victims and protecting alleged criminals. You can find links to the years of reporting on the case if you're interested.

    The upshot is, police are people too and are just as subject to prejudices as any of the rest of us.

    Personally, I don't think any of this stuff is impossible. I think skepticism is fine, and I am partially skeptical given Wyrd's founder has responded. But I do think this is a topic worth discussing.

    But when you (the royal you, not CutthroatCasual) dismisses something as impossible so quickly, you reveal your own bias. People don't always do the right thing, and biases and prejudices exist.

    Speaking specifically about Magic: The Gathering live tournaments, the majority of attendees -- perhaps the vast majority? -- are white men. So it can be difficult for us to empathize with what a woman or minority person might experience. In this case, perhaps it would be helpful to imagine yourself as the minority: Would you feel comfortable? How many "harmless jokes" would you endure before feeling threatened or unsafe? If someone actually attacked or explicitly threatened you, how would you feel if the report was relayed to a person who shared that person's characteristics and not your own?

    Here is a link to the Leaving a Legacy podcast in wihch a woman related some of her experiences at an LGS. Could add this to the "should listens" -- there is one minorly explosive segment where you will shake your head in disbelief, but hopefully not unbelief. Are we doing enough to ensure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable?

    http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-s...tiful-colossus

  12. #32

    Re: Gender and Gaming

    In my opinion the unfortunate truth is that most magic players are shit people and there aren't any good reasons for self-respecting women (or anyone else really) to interact with said shit people. These same shit people provide the core of the business for card shops which are the main form of sanctioned play.

    The last time I went to one of the nastier shops near me to pick up some cards there were three morbidly obese guys behind the counter and each of them flashed me their crack within a 5 minute purchase. You could then go into the bathroom and observe a nice layer of piss covering everything. Random stains are all over the carpet, booster wrappers are strewn about, and the lovely bouquet of BO permeates everything. It's just off-putting, pathetic, and worst of all, commonplace.

  13. #33
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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    I don't know how some people can expect a serious discussion about a Tumblr blog post of a woman screaming rape and other hilarious misuse of words.



    Thing is, Wizards embraces "shit people" (as supremePINEAPPLE calls them) because they make up a good chunk of their customers. Remember Asscrack guy?



    Was it a dick move? Certainly. But dressing like this is NOT okay when everybody sees your asscrack. What was Wizards' reaction? Ban the guy, but don't enforce a minimum dress code for their events because they don't want to alienate their customer base. And then you wonder why most women don't want to go to events when there are smelly, unwashed assholes everywhere.
    Last edited by Barook; 04-05-2016 at 07:53 PM.

  14. #34
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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Was it a dick move? Certainly. But dressing like this is NOT okay when everybody sees your asscrack. What was Wizards' reaction? Ban the guy, but don't enforce a minimum dress code for their events because they don't want to alienate their customer base. And then you wonder why most women don't want to go to events when there are smelly, unwashed assholes everywhere.
    Spotted a victim blamer.

  15. #35
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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    Hope my mine detector works.

    I, uh, take any inflammatory post with a grain of salt. The stories on that post are absolutely insane. Like someone said, r/thathappened levels of insane. But it got me curious, I want to read through the human rights case she won against her employer.

    That said, I've been playing Magic for 15 years now (yeesh). I would say it's definitely a misogynistic community, especially here in North America. It's also not a "white male" problem. I cringe every time I read that, even though I'm a minority [Latin American immigrant with Indian (Native South-American) great-grandfather].

    It's more of a "shitty introverts with no social skills whatsoever" problem. White, black, latino, purple, green, doesn't matter. Gaming attracts all types of social outcasts with little social filter that should probably not even leave home. It's not a color problem, that's for sure. Asshole gamers come in every shape and color.

    Edit: Gonna go try and read the rest of it, but the whole "white male terrorism" is triggering the fuck out of me. Can't people write opinion pieces without strong biases? Geez.

    Edit 2: I want to see those harassing emails. And I *really* want to read through that human rights case.

  16. #36
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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
    Edit 2: I want to see those harassing emails. And I *really* want to read through that human rights case.
    And solve the mystery of the Wyrd Miniatures complaint.

  17. #37

    Re: Gender and Gaming

    Complaint against hateful "White male terrorism" comments pulled.

    Curtain pulled, yep.

    It was pulled because it was worded sarcastically and dismissively. If you want to actually join the conversation, you're welcome to. -zilla

  18. #38
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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
    Hope my mine detector works.

    I, uh, take any inflammatory post with a grain of salt. The stories on that post are absolutely insane. Like someone said, r/thathappened levels of insane. But it got me curious, I want to read through the human rights case she won against her employer.

    That said, I've been playing Magic for 15 years now (yeesh). I would say it's definitely a misogynistic community, especially here in North America. It's also not a "white male" problem. I cringe every time I read that, even though I'm a minority [Latin American immigrant with Indian (Native South-American) great-grandfather].

    It's more of a "shitty introverts with no social skills whatsoever" problem. White, black, latino, purple, green, doesn't matter. Gaming attracts all types of social outcasts with little social filter that should probably not even leave home. It's not a color problem, that's for sure. Asshole gamers come in every shape and color.

    Edit: Gonna go try and read the rest of it, but the whole "white male terrorism" is triggering the fuck out of me. Can't people write opinion pieces without strong biases? Geez.

    Edit 2: I want to see those harassing emails. And I *really* want to read through that human rights case.
    I pretty much agree. Calling people white male terrorists is completely ridiculous and is completely against the extreme generalization that people like this usually hate. And 100% on the aspect of it being more because of the type of people gaming attracts
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  19. #39

    Re: Gender and Gaming

    I think we can all agree that it's possible to acknowledge that there are creepers and shitheads in the community without getting hung up on shrill Tumblr-ese.

    Like, I have walked into LGSes before where the play tables are covered in oversized gaming mats with women in compromising poses that can only be reached and held by someone who's done a shitload of yoga and is also double-jointed, while wearing maybe - maybe - a total of one square foot of fabric on their bodies, and that's just treated as perfectly normal decor. You'll have 250+ lb guys sit down with the anime girl pinup sleeves and no one bats an eye or says anything to them because they don't think it's any of their business or they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or something. But that - all of that, collectively - sends a message about the community. As the game increases in popularity, stuff like this is going to generate more and more friction because people are going to have a very reasonable expectation that there's somewhere they can go to meet and play people outside their circle of friends that doesn't require a PG-13 warning or a gas mask and emergency deodorant. We're all, collectively, responsible for helping to create and maintain those kinds of places.

    Here, I'll tell you a story: I used to work at an LGS that had a fairly large (by Magic standards) female community. One day, one of the women - who had been quite active in the Commander circles up to this point - just stopped showing up. I thought she'd moved away until a few months later one of the other women mentioned in passing to me that one of our male customers had started stalking her to and from the LGS. She had left because she hadn't felt safe around him and was now playing at an LGS further away from where she lived than we were because the dude didn't have a car and thus couldn't follow her on public transit. We knew who the guy was, too, but the store owner wouldn't take any action about it or let us do anything, so the dude just continued to show up and play in events like nothing had happened.

    Creeps exist, guys. "White male terrorist" shit aside, these people are real and do real damage, but they can also be tossed out of the community if you do something.

  20. #40
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    Re: Gender and Gaming

    I saw this blog post on my Facebook feed before I saw it linked here. My good friend Jared posted this reply which I agree with:

    Sadly I feel like the use of the word "terrorism" here will do more harm than good. It conflates international terrorism with physical, sexual and emotional abuse. I think the net effect will be people complaining that she is being overly dramatic.

    I think the author intentionally chose this term because she knew it would be attention grabbing, and I think it's a bummer that much of the article's criticism will be due to that choice. It creates a convenient way for people to ignore the rest of the contents of her post, which I think are largely on point.

    When I was discussing with Dice earlier about whether or not we should keep this thread open, I told him I wanted to, despite the fact that it could get ugly. Perhaps because it could. I'm the father of a young girl, and I very much hope she'll share my interest in gaming as she gets older. It's extremely important to me on a personal level that we make progress towards making women feel equal, comfortable, and welcome in our community.

    I think it's very easy to believe that this kind of thing doesn't just doesn't exist or is getting terribly overblown when you don't see it happening in your own social circles or at your own LGS. It does though. I promise you it does. I've seen instances of it myself, and I've heard stories from women whom I trust and respect about it. It's a problem. If you're one of those guys that finds it detestable and are willing to do something about it when you see it, great. Thank you. You're fucking awesome, and we need more people like you.

    If you think this isn't a problem, it's either because you genuinely believe that women don't deserve equal treatment, or, more likely, it's because you haven't been exposed to it and it seems so far fetched that people can behave this way that it's unbelievable to you. If you're the former, go fuck yourself. If you're the latter, I encourage you to consider that just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not an issue. The idea that women who write articles like this one are just attention seeking liars with nothing better to do is preposterous and insulting. If even a quarter of what she wrote is true, it's too much, and we can do better.

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