Gender and Gaming

[Kanti]

You make it sound like I made up the concept of reverse racism, which I didn't. Google it. In short, it's the concept of discrimination against a dominant group by a minority group, often in redress for past wrongs. It's also complete bullshit. It's almost universally used as a red herring by a dominant group to distract from their own wrongdoing.

By the dictionary definition of racism, sure, any one individual can be racist against any other individual. Who cares? When we discuss racism as a societal problem, the only racism that actually matters is perpetrated by those with privilege and power.

When black people make fun of white people for being bad at dancing, for example, it doesn't make any difference because it doesn't impact their lives in any meaningful way. Negative jokes and stereotypes about black people, on the other hand, absolutely do affect their quality of life on a day-to-day basis. If you can't understand why this is you're either willfully ignorant or incapable of empathy.

I didn't want to Google it, I wanted you to explain it to me in your own words.

Now that you did, I read; who cares about racism when minorities commit it. That's what I just read right? When individuals are racist, if they are minorities, their acts of racism are excused as individual actions, but when a majority member of society commits the same acts they are judged to be perpetuating a culture? I also read that racism, as a societal problem, only matters when perpetrated by those who are privileged and powered, which you still didn't flat out say would be "white people", but can I assume you mean "white people" when you say privileged and powered? Can you be a little more specific rather than using terms like "us" so I can know if you're talking about "us, the human race" or "us, the U.S.A", or whatever the hell.

It's amazing how you see the world though, to be so black and white. You've taken it to a literal extent. Do you really believe that the only people that have power on a global scale are white people? What of Saudies? U.A.E? China, Japan, Korea? India, Pakistan? All countries that have racism. What about if I were to go to a country where I wasn't the majority? Would my prejudice impact someones life in Ethiopia? I would hold no privilege or power in those countries, if you see where I'm going with this. Hell this doesn't even count for the prejudice among people of the same color. Travel through Europe for 500 miles and you will experience true hate. You're in Rome? Naples is the shithole of the world. You're in Milano now? Rome is the shithole of the world. Got up to Bavaria? Might as well be in Milano, the shithole of the world. Hamburg, came from Munich? Someone from Munich is as shit as an Italian, might as well be from the shithole of the world. See my drift?

Your last paragraph is just so ridiculous you couldn’t even come up with an example other than "bad at dancing" for white people and well, nothing for blacks. That attitude is why going to a majority black school is possibly the worst experience for youth growing in America. Kids are allowed to make fun of other kids, but those kids can't say shit, all at an age when none of them even know what the fuck is going on. Finns from Miami, right? Go ask him if he'd go for a day at Edison, middle or high. Then actually try going to a place like that for years, and then come back to me and tell me that doesn't affect anyone’s "quality of life".

I have the advantage of growing up in one of the most diverse cities in this country, so maybe life is different up North, or out West, so maybe I'm blessed in that regard as I'm wearing different lenses. But silly concepts like calling black people African-American's here don't fly for very long, as you’ll e get corrected when you soon run into a Hatian, or Jamaican, or Brasilain, Colombian, Cuban, etc. I'm curious to know where you live that you have experienced this level of prejudice?

By the way, you should really care a bit more about the actions of individuals. Nature vs nurture. This crap isn't in our DNA, it's a culture that's been breeded by the human race over hundreds of years, and individuals breed culture. In other words, only individuals actions have the power to change things, and they are a reflection of culture.

[Zilla]

who cares about racism when minorities commit it. That's what I just read right? When individuals are racist, if they are minorities, their acts of racism are excused as individual actions, but when a majority member of society commits the same acts they are judged to be perpetuating a culture?

Correction: individual acts of racism aren't excused, they just don't need to be addressed on a societal level. Racism is a problem on a societal level because it allows those in positions of power to systematically subjugate and abuse minority groups completely without fear of reprisal. It's a self-perpetuating problem. This just isn't an issue on an individual level.

I also read that racism, as a societal problem, only matters when perpetrated by those who are privileged and powered, which you still didn't flat out say would be "white people", but can I assume you mean "white people" when you say privileged and powered?

No, you can't assume I mean white people. I meant exactly what I said: racism is a problem when it's perpetuated by those with power and privilege. It just so happens that in America, those people are almost always white. But exceptions do exist. Any situation where a small group is systematically abused or taken advantage of by a larger group is one that should be addressed on a societal level, because it's impossible for those problems to self-correct.

It's amazing how you see the world though, to be so black and white. You've taken it to a literal extent. Do you really believe that the only people that have power on a global scale are white people? What of Saudies? U.A.E? China, Japan, Korea? India, Pakistan? All countries that have racism. What about if I were to go to a country where I wasn't the majority? Would my prejudice impact someones life in Ethiopia? I would hold no privilege or power in those countries, if you see where I'm going with this. Hell this doesn't even count for the prejudice among people of the same color. Travel through Europe for 500 miles and you will experience true hate. You're in Rome? Naples is the shithole of the world. You're in Milano now? Rome is the shithole of the world. Got up to Bavaria? Might as well be in Milano, the shithole of the world. Hamburg, came from Munich? Someone from Munich is as shit as an Italian, might as well be from the shithole of the world. See my drift?

Not much to say here, since it's a strawman. I never said you can't be racist against white people.

Your last paragraph is just so ridiculous you couldn’t even come up with an example other than "bad at dancing" for white people and well, nothing for blacks.

Are you suggesting that I can't come up with insults for black people? Are you saying my argument would have been improved if I did? Seriously? Get the fuck outta here with that shit.

That attitude is why going to a majority black school is possibly the worst experience for youth growing in America. Kids are allowed to make fun of other kids, but those kids can't say shit, all at an age when none of them even know what the fuck is going on. Finns from Miami, right? Go ask him if he'd go for a day at Edison, middle or high. Then actually try going to a place like that for years, and then come back to me and tell me that doesn't affect anyone’s "quality of life".

Keep knocking down that strawman, homie. Listen, in the early 90's I spent a year at a middle school in East Oakland. I was literally the only white kid in the entire school. I know what it's like. Really.

By the way, you should really care a bit more about the actions of individuals. Nature vs nurture. This crap isn't in our DNA, it's a culture that's been breeded by the human race over hundreds of years, and individuals breed culture. In other words, only individuals actions have the power to change things, and they are a reflection of culture.

I absolutely care about the actions of individuals. I just don't think it matters if you call it racism on an individual level. A dick by any other name is still a fucking dick. When we use capital R Racism we're talking about a problem that needs to be addressed on a societal level because if it's not, it will exist in perpetuity. Institutional racism by its very design is protected from correction by those it affects.

Anyway, listen, as far as I can tell we don't actually disagree that much. Remember, this conversation started when I suggested that reverse racism was a stupid made up concept, to which you essentially replied, "What is reverse racism even? It's a stupid made up concept." If you want to talk about this more we can, but let's do it via PM, because this has gotten way off topic.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That story is so highly improbable that it reminds me of similar tall tales from the dark past.

Yes, there are many irritating men in the gaming community. And one short look at any one of the ghastly tattoed, ear-tunneled postmodern savages that were unleashed on the recent GP, surely leaves many a woman aghast. But the ridiculous OP went beyond any borders of imaginable, and it only leaves me wondering if the main reason behind this completely unbelievable hallucination is a hatred towards the white males, or if it has more to do with a distorted perception of reality in an accented personality.

[barcode]

That story is so highly improbable that it reminds me of similar tall tales from the dark past.

Yes, there are many irritating men in the gaming community. And one short look at any one of the ghastly tattoed, ear-tunneled postmodern savages that were unleashed on the recent GP, surely leaves many a woman aghast. But the ridiculous OP went beyond any borders of imaginable, and it only leaves me wondering if the main reason behind this completely unbelievable hallucination is a hatred towards the white males, or if it has more to do with a distorted perception of reality in an accented personality.

Don't necro threads, especially with nothing useful to say.

[MaximumC]

Don't necro threads, especially with nothing useful to say.

This is actually a useful thread to have around, as long as people are open-minded. The above discussion clarifying the difference between bigotry (universal, includes "reverse racists") and an -ism (socially imposed or enforced stereotyping, only includes socially disadvantaged groups) is a good thing to have near the top of the page as people talk about gender and minority issues in Magic and gaming.

[Stan]

Don't necro threads, especially with nothing useful to say.

Don't moderate threads from the backseat, especially when you have an emotional investment in them.

[Stevestamopz]

When did the source become tumblr?

[Dice_Box]

Some conversations are worth having, regardless of the stigma attached to them.

[Renasce]

Apologies if this comes off as self-important and attention-whoring. I mostly just lurk, but I hadn't seen this thread before, and wanted to add something.

I'm MtF transsexual (Born male, later changed to female through hormones and whatnot). I've played Magic since I was 9 years old, which is a while now. Not only that, but I've lived in multiple countries while playing Magic, and did not do so during my transition. The net results is that I've experienced the community both while presenting as male and as female, but I've never actually experienced it as a trans person (Unless someone somehow figured it out, but no one's said anything to me, so I'll assume not). A few observations that I've made throughout the years are these:

When I was an awkward teenage guy (And believe me, I was awkward. I still am.), Magic was sort of my "safe space", in the sense that it was where I could go to be free of all the bullshit that I experienced in the "real world". No one was being an asshole to me there, or at least they were doing it far less than people outside of it. It was sort of a place for me to have a community where judgment wasn't being passed on my weird behaviour (And yes, I did shower and all that, but I was still incredibly socially awkward). It was... Nice. Biker types, middle-aged bus drivers, stoners, it's sort of the place where I learned not to judge people based on appearances. Almost everyone there had some quirk or awkwardness to them, yet Magic was what brought everyone together. Had this discussion happened back then, I think I may have been rather defensive about it. In my mind, Magic was my retreat from the difficulties of the outside world, and I think I would have been seeing the people complaining about it as intruders, people that were trying to come into my happy place and change it to fit their needs and desires. Even as a white, upper-middle-class male, I can guarantee you that I had a lot of issues pertaining to my social awkwardness and just general behaviour, leading to regular questions about my sexuality and other things that I, at the time, found unpleasant and dehumanising. Magic was a place free of that. And I thought of it as my place, as our place. People who are aggressively pushing back against accusations of misogyny, bad body odour, being hostile to outsiders, you know. They might just be trying to protect what they perceive as their space. It's not fair of them to do so, but I'm sure a lot of them - especially the younger ones - are used to being ostracised wherever they go, and are terrified of experiencing that in the one place where they can be themselves without being judged. Hell, they may even feel that this is them being judged in the last place that they were free of it. And you can absolutely argue that they should learn to behave like normal human beings, and I'd agree. But I can tell you from experience that for a volatile teenager with autism or other issues that lead to bad socialisation skills, it's not that easy. I'm not saying that these people should get a free pass on their behaviour either - I'm merely trying to explain where they're coming from. Conversely, I will say that even as an awkward teen, anytime a girl did tell me that she wasn't interested, I would immediately feel terrible, apologise profusely and never contact her again. But it also turned out that girls weren't really my thing in the end, so I imagine that if I had been more "motivated" to seek them out, I might have persisted even after that. I dunno. It's all anecdotal, anyways.

Conversely, while presenting as female, I have noticed some differences in how I'm treated in gaming circles - Magic is the one I mainly deal with - and they're not all positive. Amusingly, it's not entirely uncommon for people to ask my husband rules questions or questions about cards, only for him to point to me. I taught him how to play sometime after we met, back during RtR block, and people tend to assume that it's the other way around. This doesn't really bother me, but I know that it does bother some people, so I will say that it does happen on occasion. Our regular playgroup, of course, doesn't have any confusion in that regard, though when a newcomer shows up, it happens occasionally. Amusingly, this one kid in Modern tournaments will always enthusiastically ask me for advice after we play and when he's building decks and whatnot, and doesn't seem to care about gender at all. Anyways. Generally, people tend to handle me a bit more with silk gloves than they would before, which makes me a bit sad. Having "been" a guy, I know how guys interact, and I enjoy the sort of vitriolic banter that happens there. I feel a bit left out of that now, because people don't seem to be willing to engage in it with me anymore. I'm not sure why that is - my attempts at being part of it always fail, as people get quiet when I try to chip in with a joke or something. I feel sort of like I'm a school teacher and the kids are all talking excitedly among themselves, and then when I turn up, it mostly becomes awkward and squeaky clean. It's a bit disheartening.

As for actual incidents of the awkward or unpleasant sort, there hasn't really been anything. I've been playing Magic while presenting as female for around 5 years now, and only two incidents come to mind. One time, I was playing in a GPT, where two of the people there were acting weird around me specifically. One guy acted sullen the whole time, refusing to engage in polite conversation during the game, and seemingly constantly tried to sneak things by me (Like not losing life to Thoughtseize) and was somewhat condescending the whole time. My husband played him in the same tournament, and said that while the guy was a bit off, he didn't notice anything. Might just have been successful in sneaking things past my husband, though, who knows. A couple rounds later, I was up against a 16-17-year-old who seemingly had a compliment for everything I did. "Oh wow, those sleeves are cool". "Wow, what a cool deck". "Oh, Blood Moon, that's such an awesome card". Might just have been overly friendly to everyone, but the level to which he did it was a bit weird. But that was the extent of the weirdness I experienced for that entire tournament. The next "incident" was years later, last week as a matter of fact. Very socially awkward kid that none of us knows shows up at our LGS. Modern event. Plays a budget Burn deck. Beats my husband's Jund deck, then goes over to crow about it to his friend on the phone, with my husband still in earshot ("Yeah man, I beat this guy with his expensive deck, it was so awesome, blah blah"). Just to point out that his social awkwardness was a general thing. Anyways, so he plays against me. Is initially very interested in talking to me, compliments my shirt (A webcomic reference), to which I point out that it's neat that he got it, since it's somewhat obscure. He then retorts with "Well, not on the internet!", to which I suppose I have to agree. Anyways... He keeps trying to hold a conversation for most of our first round, until I address my husband as "Hon". After that, total attitude change. Rest of the match, he's sulky and not willing to talk. He drops from the tournament after I beat him 2-0. Not sure what his problem was - again, this was a kid in his late teens, I'd think that I'm a bit too old for him. But whatever.

This is all anecdotal, of course, and it's entirely based on my experiences. It might also be coloured by the fact that my husband and I usually go to events together, but we don't always, and it's the same when he's not there. I'm not looking to weigh in on the discussion one way or another - I just felt like sharing my own experiences in the hopes that it might make some things and lines of thought that either side have a bit more understandable. I'm extremely forgiving of awkward kids that don't know how to interact around people that are different than them, since I used to be one - but I doubt everyone feels that way. Maybe this is completely useless, but whatever.

[Dice_Box]

Maybe this is completely useless, but whatever.

I don't think so. This is a pov that would be very rare. So it's an interesting read because you have both sides of the coin. It's very useful and well written. Thank you.

[MaximumC]

I don't think so. This is a pov that would be very rare. So it's an interesting read because you have both sides of the coin. It's very useful and well written. Thank you.

Yeah, that was a unique perspective and I'm glad you shared. I'm also glad you only had two incidents like that in five years; helps reinforce that not every Magic community is hostile to those who don't fit Wizards core marketing demographic.

When did the source become tumblr?

Oh man, you're right! We have a single thread discussing gender issues among 20,000 discussing other topics! If you don't act fast, you may be exposed to opinions you don't agree with!

[Renasce]

I don't think so. This is a pov that would be very rare. So it's an interesting read because you have both sides of the coin. It's very useful and well written. Thank you.

Yeah, that was a unique perspective and I'm glad you shared. I'm also glad you only had two incidents like that in five years; helps reinforce that not every Magic community is hostile to those who don't fit Wizards core marketing demographic.

Well, I'm glad that it has some merit, at least. I mostly just wanted to be fair to both sides of the argument, based on what I've experienced. I can understand why someone would feel defensive when they feel that the one place they can feel included is trying to exclude them (Fairly or not, depending on perspective), but I can also understand why someone new to the game, if one of their first experiences is some awkward teen trying to get overly friendly with them, might just decide to say "Yeah, this doesn't seem like the place for me". I think it can be hard to empathise with someone who's in that situation, both because it doesn't seem like a big deal when you're used to how awkward teenage and older guys act and know how to deal with it, but also because it's easy to feel like it's something you enjoy and care about that's under fire and risks changing into something you might not feel the same way about. The bottom line being, things do happen, but at least in my experience, how one would react on them and see the people doing it would be entirely dependent on one's own experiences, and that's something that's going to be unique to everyone. I can easily see how someone would be supremely uncomfortable with either of the situations I've experienced, even though I pretty much just brushed them off. And I can also see how the recent one might have been different if I wasn't "already taken" - hell, it's possible that there have been things that were avoided pre-emptively for that exact reason. I obviously wouldn't know, and it seems presumptuous to speculate.

But the main point I wanted to make was just that it's hard to understand other people who have completely different life experiences. For example, even though I can relate to some things that most people can't, I don't know what it's like to feel desperate about finding a girlfriend and actually wanting one on top of that, nor do I know what it's like to be raised as a girl and come into an LGS with any baggage that might entail. I might have arrived at totally different conclusions if I had been through either of those experiences.

[Beatusnox]

I haven't read through all 20 pages, so take this as you will. One of the issues I take with the stance of "all white men are evil" is that it dismisses any attempts by white males who are legitimately trying to improve the communities they play in. One of the things I've seen in online gaming more than tabletop or MTG is that any guy who treats female gamers as equals is often referred to as a "white knight" and marginalized, this contributes to the problem. The biggest ally that minority gamers should have in a fight for real equality should be those from the majority who actually view them as equal, and instead are often times dismissed by the minority they are aligning themselves with. Instead of divisively grouping everyone, we should attempt to come together as a whole.

As for the stories of sexual harassment from employees of a company? Not unbelievable, nor is the HR department of the company refusing to acknowledge it. Short of a subpoena they will ignore it and hope it goes away.

As far as sexual assault, well, that's on us. It should be all peoples responsibility to step up against these actions. There are people who need to be dealt with by all of us. Be the change you want to see and deal with problems that arise.

In my particular WoW guild there are a few women who make more jokes about "sapped girls can't say no" and other messed up subjects than most dudes, while at the same time females who are offended by them, so what we did was simple, if you express offense, we stop and change course.