Gender and Gaming

[[SLAYER]chaos]

It's more of a "shitty introverts with no social skills whatsoever" problem. White, black, latino, purple, green, doesn't matter. Gaming attracts all types of social outcasts with little social filter that should probably not even leave home. It's not a color problem, that's for sure. Asshole gamers come in every shape and color.

This is pretty much what I was going to say too. As much as everyone says "not at my LGS" there's almost ALWAYS at least a small group of guys that are gigantic assholes.

[Megadeus]

I get what you're saying Zilla. My big point is the wording that was used implies that this happens because it's a game largely played by white males. It's more in my opinion because of the type of person that these sorts of hobbies attract. I don't think any reasonable human being thinks anything that was said to have happened is okay. While I get that this is literally a personal blog post, if you're going to post something you would like to be taken seriously, you really need to stay as objective as possible, and "white male terrorist" is pretty much the opposite along with basically being on par with what many see as a negative side of tumblr posts.

[cdr]

Male nerds have by and large become the bullies and gatekeepers we claim to have despised in our childhoods. Most game shop crowds I've seen are very hostile in large and small ways to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of the stereotypical geek, and they mostly don't even realize it.

Shit like this

While I don't disagree that inappropriate comments in LGSes happen, because they most certainly do, there is no way that a cop would call a crying rape victim a slut and hang up on her. I stopped reading there, so I don't know if there are more falsified experiences.

and this

I don't know how some people can expect a serious discussion about a Tumblr blog post of a woman screaming rape and other hilarious misuse of words.

is just pathetic.

[Zilla]

I get what you're saying Zilla. My big point is the wording that was used implies that this happens because it's a game largely played by white males. It's more in my opinion because of the type of person that these sorts of hobbies attract. I don't think any reasonable human being thinks anything that was said to have happened is okay. While I get that this is literally a personal blog post, if you're going to post something you would like to be taken seriously, you really need to stay as objective as possible, and "white male terrorist" is pretty much the opposite along with basically being on par with what many see as a negative side of tumblr posts.

Granted. As I said, I think the choice of the term "Terrorist" was a mistake that hurts the author's cause more than helps it. I also agree that the White Male descriptor isn't particularly helpful because, as you said, that just happens to be the majority makeup of the current gaming community (although it'd be great if that changed.) That being said, White Males are a pretty fucking lucky bunch on the whole and if they're offended by being labeled as White Males they should probably just sack up, naw mean? (For clarity: I am a white male.)

All that aside, the crux of the article is important despite her inflammatory choice of labels. It isn't so much that people think the behavior she described is okay, it's that they don't believe it actually happens. It does, and people need to hear about it because it's fucking inexcusable.

Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.

[Mr.C]

Granted. As I said, I think the choice of the term "Terrorist" was a mistake that hurts the author's cause more than helps it. I also agree that the White Male descriptor isn't particularly helpful because, as you said, that just happens to be the majority makeup of the current gaming community (although it'd be great if that changed.) That being said, White Males are a pretty fucking lucky bunch on the whole and if they're offended by being labeled as White Males they should probably just sack up, naw mean? (For clarity: I am a white male.)

All that aside, the crux of the article is important despite her inflammatory choice of labels. It isn't so much that people think the behavior she described is okay, it's that they don't believe it actually happens. It does, and people need to hear about it because it's fucking inexcusable.

Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.

It could have been a great opinion piece that I would have happily passed along. Instead, it comes across as a shrill SJW-esque blogpost.

Too bad, because I've witnessed a lot of the tamer stuff. More often than not I'd call people about, but that's usually met with awkward laughter or simply indifference.

I don't go to game stores much these days. This kind of behaviour is one of the reasons.

[LOLWut]

Granted. As I said, I think the choice of the term "Terrorist" was a mistake that hurts the author's cause more than helps it. I also agree that the White Male descriptor isn't particularly helpful because, as you said, that just happens to be the majority makeup of the current gaming community (although it'd be great if that changed.) That being said, White Males are a pretty fucking lucky bunch on the whole and if they're offended by being labeled as White Males they should probably just sack up, naw mean? (For clarity: I am a white male.)

All that aside, the crux of the article is important despite her inflammatory choice of labels. It isn't so much that people think the behavior she described is okay, it's that they don't believe it actually happens. It does, and people need to hear about it because it's fucking inexcusable.

Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.

My friend was called a Black rapist at a party. Should he sack up if he's offended at being labeled as a Black male?

Do the ends justify the means if it kickstarted a discussion on sexual assault, especially if the term was written in an article exploring the topic?

[cdr]

My friend was called a Black rapist at a party. Should he sack up if he's offended at being labeled as a Black male?

Do the ends justify the means if it kickstarted a discussion on sexual assault, especially if the term was written in an article exploring the topic?

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? You're comparing calling someone white to calling someone a "black rapist".

[LOLWut]

Go look up "false equivalency" in the dictionary. I think you'll find a screenshot of your post.

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? You're comparing calling someone white to calling someone a "black rapist".

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? The comparison is to "White Male Terrorist", not "white".

[cdr]

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? The comparison is to "White Male Terrorist", not "white".

What stigma exactly do you think "white" or "male" has? I'll help you out: Zero, zilch, nada. "White male terrorist" has about as much weight as calling someone rich and strong. The US is not still struggling with hundreds of years of virulent racism against white people.

[barcode]

This kind of crap is why we can't have a reasonable discussion. Guys are getting into meta-arguments about womens' right to complain about shitty treatment by male dominated communities, as if there's some permission required to use specific language for literary effect.

It's so predictable.

[cdr]

It's so predictable.

Agree there. Male nerds really, desperately need to grow up. Some seem to be stuck in a mindset like they're the underdogs in highschool even though I know a lot of us are 30+ already. I've got news for you: we have reached the point where we are the metaphorical jocks. We are the majority, we are the ones with the social power, and we as a group are as bad as any group of bullies there ever was.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

BUT that doesn't mean that the whole issue can't be discussed in the first place. Just because there's no sexism or discrimination at your store or every place you've been to, doesn't mean that there might not be a problem. If you think the article is overplaying its alleged anecdotical evidence, tell us, but don't make the stupid mistake of trying to "invalidate" it with your own stories. That's just stupid and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Not to pick on you in general, but this paragraph stands out as to why these "dialogues" (to appropriate a term favored by the identitarian academics) are quite one sided.

A certain set of anecdata can be used to establish the pervasiveness of sexism in, but a different set of anecdata can't be used to counter it? Bear in mind, both have the same level of credibility to an impartial observer, which is to say not a whole lot. And a discussion in which one cannot question what it's premised upon is not a real discussion in any meaningful sense—it's more a sermon, more of a...struggle-session.

No surprise, as with any discussion of "social justice", this thread has gone down an all too predictable path. The integrity of anyone skeptical of this piece (or the worldview of "social justice" proponents in general) is called into question; simply having a differing viewpoint or expressing reasonable skepticism might mark one as a bigot who doesn't know that "IT'S 2016!".

It's no way to have an open, genuine, and honest conversation. But i suspect that most of the folks here are far more interested in virtue-signaling than reasoned discourse.

Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.

This kind of crap is why we can't have a reasonable discussion. Guys are getting into meta-arguments about womens' right to complain about shitty treatment by male dominated communities, as if there's some permission required to use specific language for literary effect.

It's so predictable.

"We've started a discussion." "It was used for effect...don't take it so seriously."

Pray tell, do either of you afford the same leniency to your ideological opponents? Or do you take everything they say quite literally?

[Zilla]

My friend was called a Black rapist at a party. Should he sack up if he's offended at being labeled as a Black male?

No he shouldn't sack up, because frankly, being black in this country fucking sucks. I'm saying white males shouldn't be offended by being called White Males because on average they have literally the most advantageous position you can possibly have in this society. Reverse racism is a fucking myth.

[Megadeus]

I never said I was offended because of being a white male. I simply said that over generalizing a certain population by saying "white male terrorists" is hypocritical. It hurts the credibility of the author. And in media keeping objectivity is fairly important when it comes to trying to have a legitimate discussion on a topic.

[Zilla]

I never said I was offended because of being a white male. I simply said that over generalizing a certain population by saying "white male terrorists" is hypocritical. It hurts the credibility of the author. And in media keeping objectivity is fairly important when it comes to trying to have a legitimate discussion on a topic.

I didn't mean to say that you were offended. Only that some people clearly are, and they shouldn't be. Was her choice of labels annoying and harmful to her cause? Yeah, I think so. But my hope is that people can look past it to the meat of her article, because it's an important issue and we ought to be tackling it.

[jrsthethird]

The stories on that post are absolutely insane. Like someone said, r/thathappened levels of insane. But it got me curious, I want to read through the human rights case she won against her employer.

Anyone who's ever been in an auditorium when someone asks "if someone has been or knows someone who has been sexually assaulted, please stand up" and over half the crowd stands up, it's pretty fucking shocking. Also, follow some Instagram accounts that repost screen grabs from women on online dating (@byefelipe is a great one), and you'll see how shitty men can be to women.

There are things I've done that have made women feel uncomfortable, and while they were either dumb gags I did as a dumb teenager, or crossing boundaries of not-so-close friends. I like to say it was never with any malicious intent, but that's likely a byproduct of my own status as a white male, and also the fact that I am not that woman and I don't know what she's been through. An innocent joke on my part can trigger a horrible experience from her past, or just be another straw on the camel's back. Who knows when it will break? It's something I struggle with, and discussions like this make me second guess before I say or do something that may be offensive or uncomforting.

Like, I have walked into LGSes before where the play tables are covered in oversized gaming mats with women in compromising poses that can only be reached and held by someone who's done a shitload of yoga and is also double-jointed, while wearing maybe - maybe - a total of one square foot of fabric on their bodies, and that's just treated as perfectly normal decor. You'll have 250+ lb guys sit down with the anime girl pinup sleeves and no one bats an eye or says anything to them because they don't think it's any of their business or they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or something. But that - all of that, collectively - sends a message about the community.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, sexualizing women is a problem, and we see that reflected in other parts of the media. On the other hand, the topic of women's sexuality has been repressed for a while, and recently we have things like 50 Shades of Grey and Magic Mike which are pretty much men being sexualized for the amusement of women, as well as Vagina Monologues and similar works that promote women to embrace their own sexuality. It's a bit of a mess; I personally think its fine to have artistic versions of sexualized women (although I myself don't care for it), and I encourage women gamers to get some hunky man playmats and sleeves to match. But I don't blame people for thinking completely opposite of me.

Some of the art is even done by women, who have no problem feeding into it. This whole point harkens back to #shirtgate.

I saw this blog post on my Facebook feed before I saw it linked here. My good friend Jared posted this reply which I agree with:


I think the author intentionally chose this term because she knew it would be attention grabbing, and I think it's a bummer that much of the article's criticism will be due to that choice. It creates a convenient way for people to ignore the rest of the contents of her post, which I think are largely on point.

There was a reason I changed it to "Privilege" from "Terrorism"; the term is aggressive and off-putting. Dice's edit is better though.

I think it's very easy to believe that this kind of thing doesn't just doesn't exist or is getting terribly overblown when you don't see it happening in your own social circles or at your own LGS. It does though. I promise you it does. I've seen instances of it myself, and I've heard stories from women whom I trust and respect about it. It's a problem. If you're one of those guys that finds it detestable and are willing to do something about it when you see it, great. Thank you. You're fucking awesome, and we need more people like you.

One interesting thing that happened at my local SOI prerelease: The match next to me had a woman against a man, and they were chatting while playing the game. She made a joke that he was about to lose to a girl; it was clearly a joke, there was no malice or spite whatsoever. Maybe even flirting? This is completely tame compared to the abuse in the blog post, but it's still a comment that is made by clueless men in regards to women players and can make them feel uncomfortable. It's pretty undebatable that guys who say this sort of thing are dicks, and we need to step in and correct them for this line of thinking, but how do you respond to a woman who says it? Because men who hear that coming from a woman may think that it's an ok thing to say, but can you really tell a woman who isn't bothered by it that it's a harmful thing to say?

I mean, I have my circle of friends who, in closed quarters, use words like "***" and "nigga/er" and "cunt" and I don't bat an eye, but I would absolutely flip out at them if they did it in public. Except "cunt", which is strangely only offensive in the US.

Male nerds have by and large become the bullies and gatekeepers we claim to have despised in our childhoods. Most game shop crowds I've seen are very hostile in large and small ways to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of the stereotypical geek, and they mostly don't even realize it.

Ditto.

No he shouldn't sack up, because frankly, being black in this country fucking sucks. I'm saying white males shouldn't be offended by being called White Males because on average they have literally the most advantageous position you can possibly have in this society. Reverse racism is a fucking myth.

Ditto as well.

[Ace/Homebrew]

*sigh*

I will say, my favorite part of these threads is getting to learn who all the shitty people are.


Seriously though... We can't go 3 full pages discussing the struggles of women in our community without dudebros hijacking the thread to complain about the struggles white men face??

Create your own fucking thread to discuss how hard it is to hear women and SJWs lump you together with the bad guys that you've never seen and therefore don't exist!

[Megadeus]

I'd like to point out that literally no one in this thread has complained about the struggles that white men face. The only thing that was said is that the term "white male terrorist" was a complete overgeneralisation. Which was then construed by many to be "being a white male in this country sucks so much".

[Ace/Homebrew]

A certain set of anecdata can be used to establish the pervasiveness of sexism in, but a different set of anecdata can't be used to counter it? Bear in mind, both have the same level of credibility to an impartial observer, which is to say not a whole lot. And a discussion in which one cannot question what it's premised upon is not a real discussion in any meaningful sense—it's more a sermon, more of a...struggle-session.

No surprise, as with any discussion of "social justice", this thread has gone down an all too predictable path. The integrity of anyone skeptical of this piece (or the worldview of "social justice" proponents in general) is called into question; simply having a differing viewpoint or expressing reasonable skepticism might mark one as a bigot who doesn't know that "IT'S 2016!".

It's no way to have an open, genuine, and honest conversation. But i suspect that most of the folks here are far more interested in virtue-signaling than reasoned discourse.

I read this as "Wait a second... You get to use the stories women tell about their problems in the gaming community to show there is a problem, but I don't get to use my stories about there not being problems in my gaming community to counter that? That's not fair!!"

This thread isn't about discussing whether or not there is a problem. It's about discussing the problem.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

This thread isn't about discussing whether or not there is a problem. It's about discussing the problem.

Then why are you just attacking people and not talking about the issue?