Can't speak for Caprino, but in my experience you have an early Thought-Knot Seer to nab Moon, or just use your "Mountains" to cast your board wipes. Also, Sower is good here for ramping into the finishers. Blood Moon definitely slows you down, but Dragon Stompy typically doesn't win quickly so you have time to find answers.
I would never play this deck without mana rocks and key.
If Grim Monolith and Voltaic Key didn't exist, I don't think this deck would even be worth exploring, imho. Monolith + Key lead to the best starts this deck has and lets you accelerate fast enough to beat the speedy Legacy tempo decks.
Voltaic Key is literally Sol Ring if you have a mana rock on the board - it generates 2 mana with each untap+tap of a Monolith or a Dynamo, and it costs only 1 mana to play. Think about that for a second. If the actual Sol Ring was legal as a 4-of in Legacy, do you think alot of decks would play it? Well, in this deck, it is functionally a Sol Ring (most of the time) that we get to play 4 copies of. It may be one of the most important cards in the deck.
- 'Pathy' on MTGO
- Eastern PA player
List looks interesting, quite a very different brew but in the past you also had some experience with lands over manarocks and the thespian idea.
I think you knew what you do, but i also think its a very different playstyle here. At the end it seems the deck can be build in different direction, which is good for everyone because it seems to be flexible enough to address different meta/playstyles situations.
We already had the question - why no Expedition Map? Seems "okay" without Chalice and offers needed ramp (or DD-Combo) especially without Manarocks.
I expect its answered a lot during the thread - most of us clearly want to avoid early Ugin-Draws because he only shines if you have 8 real-colorless Mana ready which can be difficult sometimes, especially without Manarocks. So some list play 0 Ugin too. He can be good or very good in some situations but overall isnt good enough to be an auto include for most of us.
So far as i can tell it:
5-0: Won vs Uwr Control, Predict Miracles, BtB Miracles, DNT; Uwr Control
4-1: Won vs C.Pile, Elves, C.Pile, Enchantress / Lose vs Canadian
3-2- Won vs Grixis Delver, ANT, Infect / Lose vs Grixis Delver, Uwr Landstill
So - looking only at Delver and only on MTGO matches of my friend (still learning the deck) - Delver are problematic, but first you can't expect that a ramp deck break tempo decks if Wasteland+Softcounter+fast Clock are combined. If you look at MGB latest performance he beats more Delver decks in a row WITH a build that should lose more often vs Wasteland+Softcounter alone. At the end we all agree that its not an easy matchup and some hands/draws are unbeatable even if you try to win more often vs Delver decks with some different slots and a lower manacurve. My Delver Matchup is still positiv, but i also got some games where i couldn't win and sometimes only the dice roll decide a match too.
Overall less finisher, more midrange creatures (like Sower) and more cheap removal (dont count on All is Dust/Ugin) should be good to win more often vs most tempo decks but at the end we will never be favoured here.
@Dragon Stompy/Moon - yes Sower can be good, but i expect less wins without Manarocks here because even with Sower you need 6 land drops...against some Moon list you are dead at this point. Sower+Manarocks combined made Moons a lot of less scary. Sure if you ramp/survive until 8 Colorless(Mountain) Mana something like Ugin is hard to beat for Moon-Decks, that sometimes also try to hide behind bridge (which is a useless tactic vs bigeldrazi).
TEAM MtG Berlin
I completely agree. If you're playing a ramp strategy that intends to cast spells that cost 6 or more mana in Legacy, you have two viable options. The first is to run Post, land tutors, and maybe Candelabra (Turbo Eldrazi). The second is to run sol lands + mana rocks (Big Eldrazi).
Just running a manabase with sol lands + Post is not enough. You can certainly go this route, but you'd need to cut the top end out and play a more midrange game, where 7cc (All is Dust) should be the top of your curve, with maybe 1 Ulamog to tutor for with Eye. Otherwise, you're going to lose too many games because you were unable to make enough mana to cast your bombs before you're dead.
Between Force, Swords, and snaps how do you guys deal with blade decks? They countered and exiled all my early plays and would eot snaps to pickup batterskull to take care of ugin.
Decks heavy on counterspells can pose a problem, especially if we are forced to certain lines of play and they happen to have the right answers. Obviously, playing around stuff when possible is key.
Based on my experience, a great card vs permission is Sorcerous Spyglass. If resolved you get crucial information and the opportunity to lock up equipment/stoneforge/whatever, and occasionally it costs them FoW+pitch. This is as close as we get to playing TKS #5–8.
I like your list as a base for the more All is Dust centric lists with 7 Eldrazi lands and few City of Traitors.
This week at my LGS I played a more Ugin heavy list (like the newer MGB/Pathy lists with 2 Karns) and even tough it was ok and I went 3-1 I did not like it.
I will in future play something more along these lines:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
3 Voltaic Key
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Endbringer
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
2 Thespians' Stage
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 2 Coercive Portal
Chalice on 1
You're still playing a lot high CCM finishers (7 + 3 AiD), and have 4 Bridges in sideboard, so maybe MGB's approach is better here, with the full playset of Ugin and less eldrazi lands.
The list you quoted is more midrange, playing more 4-6 CCM eldrazis, and doesnt rely only on high end threats.
I stabilized with this list so far, and doing pretty well :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
2-3 Voltaic Key (still unsure)
3 Thran Dynamo
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Walking Ballista
3 Reality Smasher
2 All Is Dust
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Enbringer
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Spatial Contortion
3 Warping Wail
1 All is Dust
I think that if you play the Eldrazi lands you want to a lot of play All is Dust, as it has a similar function as the Ugins. The choice of playing more or less no midrange except for the Endbringers (which are also glorified Coercive Portals) comes from the games I want to play: T1-3 I play mana and lockpieces and then drop a finisher or All is Dust.
If you want to play like this you want enough Eldrazi Titans, All is Dusts and Ugins to be able to play at least 2 from turn 4 on (as at least one will have been discarded or will be countered).
I don't like Ugin (and Walking Ballista) as much as All is Dust as it is considerably more expensive (at least if you play Eldrazi lands), can be switched off by one Revoker/Needle/Spyglass and All is Dust allows me to play more Eye of Ugin, which is also a finisher.
But in the end it depends on if you want to play more midrangy or more controlish and if you like Eldrazi spells or colorless mana spells.
Chalice on 1
I understand why people play more All is Dust over Ugin but the difference in CMC (usually 1-4 mana depending on how many Eldrazi Temples or Eyes you play) is almost always offset by the fact that Ugin functions as a win condition. I've killed with Ugin ultimate (they usually concede) so many times with this deck it's ridiculous. In those same situations, casting All is Dust would only have served to stall the opponent. Many times when I cast Ugin it's the only finisher I have in my hand, and I don't draw an Eldrazi or anything relevant after I cast the Ugin. In those situations the All is Dust would just have been a speedbump for the opponent whereas the Ugin closes the game out by lightning bolting further threats and then Ultimating.
On another note, has anyone else tried testing with Sanctum of Ugin? It did some nice things for me in a few games when I could just chain Eldrazi/Planeswalkers (if one of them got countered, for instance) without costing any mana to fetch (like Eye of Ugin does).
- 'Pathy' on MTGO
- Eastern PA player
I have done some initial testing with Sanctum (No tournament yet), seems good so far. I like chaining All is Dust into one of the Titans, as another route to inevitability. The biggest issue lies in which lands to cut for it... (My current testing build is more midrangey and) I don't want to cut down on City of Traitors... Maybe in place of Urborg/Vesuva? 2-3 Copies?
About All is Dust/Eldrazi Lands/Midrange:
You cant look at only All is Dust or compared it to something like Ugin (its simple, IF you have 8 real colorless mana Ugin is better, but reach this point can be difficult and needs another mana/land config and playstyle). It is true that All is Dust alone dont win the game unlike Ugin, but its not only much faster in most cases to cast, it also comes in my build with a different idea. A much more midrange orientied build will not only have All is Dust, it will have more midrange creatures that act as a wincon and All is Dust is a backup. Sure Ugin offers all in one card, but its still an 8 mana planeswalker and i imagine a lot of situation where i was never in the position to cast him compared to my other cards in hand. I am sure Ugin + Bridges + adjusted Mana work (MGB proven it) but its not my playstyle or i want to win in other situations and accept to lose in games where Ugin or Bridge means "GG".
For me oblivion sower more or less is the card i like the most, it does so many things and can win on its own if you grap the right lands (Eldrazi Mirror, Wasteland Decks etc.) and i like the fact that it doesnt matter in most cases if the opponent counter it or not and it makes Eye a better way to win the game via tutor -> Wincon.
TEAM MtG Berlin
Hey everyone. I think one of you just won on a stream. You have a Balance avatar on MTGO? You beat food chain? In a league?
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