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Thread: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

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    Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Not exactly Legacy-related, hence the community board, but the effects of this are probably going to be felt sooner or later by everybody:

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...soi-2016-04-24

    tl;dr:
    - Plat Pros got their attendance fee cut from 3000$ to a measly 250$ for the upcoming season (which many worked for this season), aka over 90% cut
    - HoF benefits are cut by 75%
    - World Cup gets a bit more money

    There's currently a massive shitstorm raging on social media. First effect is Vintage Super League being suspended as pros are pissed. And there's probably more to come.

    Whether it's a piss-poor marketing move or a response to the judge employment lawsuit is yet to be seen. I can't really see them grow their "eSport" section with a still unimpressive prize pool for a single event while turning off a good chunk of their "stars".

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    On one hand, I think the idea of making a living off of [video] games is stupid so I can sympathize with the camp making that argument.

    On the other, if WotC wanted to change the compensation structure, they could have at least given advance notice, or at least not had the changes take effect immediately.
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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Not exactly Legacy-related, hence the community board, but the effects of this are probably going to be felt sooner or later by everybody:

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...soi-2016-04-24

    tl;dr:
    - Plat Pros got their attendance fee cut from 3000$ to a measly 250$ for the upcoming season (which many worked for this season), aka over 90% cut
    - HoF benefits are cut by 75%
    - World Cup gets a bit more money

    There's currently a massive shitstorm raging on social media. First effect is Vintage Super League being suspended as pros are pissed. And there's probably more to come.

    Whether it's a piss-poor marketing move or a response to the judge employment lawsuit is yet to be seen. I can't really see them grow their "eSport" section with a still unimpressive prize pool for a single event while turning off a good chunk of their "stars".
    I mean I don't know enough of the income structure of Pros to really evaluate this (how much comes from: attandence fees, prize money, sponsors, stream), but this seems like a major cut. A cut by over 90%? Wow

    And they do not increase the prizes at the pro tour, only for the world cup... I would rather have a steady income at each pro tour, rather then the chance to win a lot during an annual tournament. It seems like somebody in management tries to hit their numbers and they try to save money this way. I do not like cutting the benefits for HoF members too, I want to see guy like Finkel, Kai and so on play this tournaments... Probably they are thinking the HoF is getting too big for the benefits they are giving to the members, that is why they will also change the voting and make it harder to get in.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    HoF change seems alright since it isn't really sustainable in the long run. And people don't seem to really mind, either.

    Making a living with playing a game for kids where you pretend to be a wizard with card board is questionable at best. But screwing over the people dedicated to the game and out of the payment you promised beforehand is just downright shady. And that's the thing a huge number of people have a problem with.

    #paythepros is currently trending really hard on Twitter.

    Edit: What's even more hilarious is the release of the "Enter the Battlefield" documentary about the lives of PT players just the day after they screwed them over. Their piss-poor timing is top-notch, as always.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    It's a silly argument that people shouldn't be able to live off of playing games. Sports comes to mind but I'm sure people will say "But I don't like sports, I don't think athletes should be paid to play football" etc. The point is when there is enough interest in anything competitive you'll get much better competition for players and viewers if a portion of them can dedicate their workweek to playing that game. I prefer watching videogame/cardgame tournaments to most movies or TV, and I don't mind at all if those people get paid for it.

    Back to this decision though, it's pretty bad for the pros this season getting their prize support cut 3/4 of the way through. I can't say I'm surprised at this move by WotC because really they've done nothing but mishandle basically everything over the past few years. I'm still under the impression WotC was lucky enough to stumble into buying MtG and the game itself was robust enough to live through mistake after mistake.

    The only explanation I could think of is maybe they think making the game "less competitive oriented" will drive more of their casual crowd towards trying out Standard and buying more packs or something like that.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    It's a silly argument that people shouldn't be able to live off of playing games. Sports comes to mind but I'm sure people will say "But I don't like sports, I don't think athletes should be paid to play football" etc. The point is when there is enough interest in anything competitive you'll get much better competition for players and viewers if a portion of them can dedicate their workweek to playing that game.
    Sports is different. You work your whole life to be good at sports, and many don't make it to the pros. You can't make it to even minor minor pro just by "grinding" for one year. In pretty much all eSports (Hearthstone, CS, Street Fighter, MTG) if you dedicate one year to playing, you'll jump in rank substantially, and often you can dedicate much less time and still be as good. Hell, in my highschool years I played MW2 like 4 hours a day (which is nothing compared to the MLG guys) and I was already in like the top 10% of randoms in random lobbies. If I dedicated half of my day playing MW2 I'd likely have made MLG. In my school there were a couple players on MLG (granted, lesser) teams and I wasn't too far behind them in terms of raw skill.
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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Seriously, look at this article and video from the League of Legends NALCS:

    http://espn.go.com/esports/story/_/i...s-bets-esports

    I have friends who play competitive SSB: Melee and posted a link to a Melee championship match on ESPN's website, which blew my mind that they have an eSports division now. I poked around a little bit and found that article/video, with coverage from the finals, and after never watching or playing LOL in my life, I want to watch more. Commentary was exciting and the 6000+ crowd was going nuts, which really adds to the viewer experience.

    eSports are grabbing coverage from major sports networks, as well as corporate sponsorships. MTG gets coverage from MTG sites and sponsorships from MTG accessories and vendors. You think throwing the pros under the bus is going to help compete not only with Hearthstone, but also every other eSport? They're the people that have the ability to get you there, and if you want your product to compete digitally (as far as viewership goes; the MTGO client is shit anyway), you need to treat them as such.

  8. #8

    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettwor...pture-of-2016/

    Wizards a) almost certainly has prize budget issues, as it has its entire history b) decided they'd rather gamble with using a big prize pool to draw spectators rather than trying to draw spectators by having the people at the top stick around. They're going to try and see how it works bringing a crop of lucky grinders up, having them burn out, and then bringing in the next crop.

    And they announced it in the most hamfisted way possible, as always. They're definitely going to end up paying out to current platinums just to mollify pros a little if for no other reason.
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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Sports is different. You work your whole life to be good at sports, and many don't make it to the pros. You can't make it to even minor minor pro just by "grinding" for one year.
    You're ignoring a key factor here: The sports you speak of are possible to have spent your life working to get good at. It's not possible to do that with eSports, because they haven't been around long enough. It is literally impossible for an 18-year-old to have worked their whole life at getting good at, say, League of Legends because the game is only 7 years old; and it's an even shorter timeframe for when there was incentive to become one of the best.

    Why does this matter? Because there's such a smaller amount of time possible, it's much easier to catch up with the elite because they're not as far ahead of you. I can't catch up with someone who's trained for 10 years to be good at football. But someone who's spent a year or two on a videogame? Sure, I can do that.

    The other factor is the stability of the games. New games come out and replace old ones, or current games get upgrades that change things dramatically and throw a lot of the previous stuff out the window. Football isn't going to fade away because Football 2: Electric Boogaloo gets released. And it isn't going to suddenly make it so that what decides if you get the 7th point from the touchdown is if you can beat someone on the opposing team in a swimming race. In contrast, your skill at a particular fighting game can get rendered a bit moot when the next sequel is out. It's not even just sequels, either, there are changes made to games as time goes on. Let's look at Magic. You could have an 80% win rate in Scars-Innistrad Standard, but that doesn't mean that much in present Standard tournaments.

    The simple fact is that, in contrast to those other sports, there isn't much of an opportunity to devote all that time to a particular eSport because they're either too new or have changed enough to render a lot of previous training irrelevant. So you're inherently competing against people who haven't had all those years to train themselves, in contrast to you going up against a potential football player who's trained for 10 years. If some eSport manages to stick around and stay relevant for that long, I think we'll probably see it'll be much harder to "break into" as a professional than it is now.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    So I have read one thing that makes sense and thought of something myself that adds something to the thoughts of others:

    1: This has to do with the Judge lawsuit.

    This is not as dumb as it seams. The issue here is that Wizards is being sued by some Judges over employment rights. The issue being that the way the Judge system is setup there is some chance somewhere that it might not go in the favor of Wizards. I do not know a ton about it, just what I have read and I can not comment either way, what I have read though is that Wizards is uncomfortable with the situation and the way that Pros were paid meant they too could have (in some way) argued that they happened to be Wizards employees. To close down any legal challenge, Hasbro went nuclear and closed down the issue before it could become one. This means that the call had nothing to do with Wizards themselves but they have to take the heat for it.

    2: This helps with keeping standard "Fresh"

    Recent changes to the replay policy have left us with an inside look on Wizards views on the game. Have a look at this jem:

    As stewards of Magic, we in R&D feel that this action is necessary to prevent data mining that contributes to Constructed formats growing stale before their time. At its essence, Magic is best when it's a game of exploration and puzzle-solving: this is why providing new formats and new experiences are so important. By gathering large sets of data from Magic Online events, a given format too-rapidly changes from exciting exploration to cold statistical analysis. While the analysis may be fascinating, it generally makes for far less compelling gameplay. This leads to reduced enthusiasm about the analyzed format, which in turn ultimately hurts not just Magic content creators worldwide, but the game as a whole.
    In removing the replays and restricting data, the only way left to mine for format changes is with teams of pros in a house going at it for a few weeks. This gives an large disadvantage to those locked out of such a system and benefits greatly those with insider infomation. A way to further push the game back fifteen years (to before the internet) would be to remove the incentive for pros to lock themselves in a room and play every deck in the new Standard environment. Since Pro Tours are only Standard now, this would have been an issue that was compounded over time, the removal of both online data mining and the house environments leaves for a less data driven and thus "Exciting" standard Pro Tour.

    That second one is just my views on the situation, might be wrong, likely am, but I doubt Wizards is unhappy about that even if it is a side effect of whatever the real trigger was.
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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Is anyone else excited about the fact Wizards of the Coast, a Hasbro subsidiary, has broken a promise to these players? I am. It gives me hope that they are just practicing for breaking the biggest promise yet, the reserved list.

    Seriously though, I feel bad for the players who have grinded these past few months to reach platinum. It's all been in vain. What would have been so hard to give a years notice? It's a damn shame.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Sports is different. You work your whole life to be good at sports, and many don't make it to the pros. You can't make it to even minor minor pro just by "grinding" for one year. In pretty much all eSports (Hearthstone, CS, Street Fighter, MTG) if you dedicate one year to playing, you'll jump in rank substantially, and often you can dedicate much less time and still be as good. Hell, in my highschool years I played MW2 like 4 hours a day (which is nothing compared to the MLG guys) and I was already in like the top 10% of randoms in random lobbies. If I dedicated half of my day playing MW2 I'd likely have made MLG. In my school there were a couple players on MLG (granted, lesser) teams and I wasn't too far behind them in terms of raw skill.
    I love the "I could have been pro if I tried, I just didn't" argument. I've used it on multiple occasions before realizing that it doesn't mean anything.

    Top 10% is expected of anyone who continues to play any game. If you just start out at a game you suck at it. If you're interested, you'll play longer, and one would assume gain skill. Try getting to the top hundred people in the world in a game that has regular money tournaments, that's the real accomplishment.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    No part of this conversation is about Tax, it's about Wizards actions and the effects therefore of.

    I will delete the next shit post anyone makes.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    So I have read one thing that makes sense and thought of something myself that adds something to the thoughts of others:

    1: This has to do with the Judge lawsuit.

    This is not as dumb as it seams. The issue here is that Wizards is being sued by some Judges over employment rights. The issue being that the way the Judge system is setup there is some chance somewhere that it might not go in the favor of Wizards. I do not know a ton about it, just what I have read and I can not comment either way, what I have read though is that Wizards is uncomfortable with the situation and the way that Pros were paid meant they too could have (in some way) argued that they happened to be Wizards employees. To close down any legal challenge, Hasbro went nuclear and closed down the issue before it could become one. This means that the call had nothing to do with Wizards themselves but they have to take the heat for it.

    2: This helps with keeping standard "Fresh"

    Recent changes to the replay policy have left us with an inside look on Wizards views on the game. Have a look at this jem:



    In removing the replays and restricting data, the only way left to mine for format changes is with teams of pros in a house going at it for a few weeks. This gives an large disadvantage to those locked out of such a system and benefits greatly those with insider infomation. A way to further push the game back fifteen years (to before the internet) would be to remove the incentive for pros to lock themselves in a room and play every deck in the new Standard environment. Since Pro Tours are only Standard now, this would have been an issue that was compounded over time, the removal of both online data mining and the house environments leaves for a less data driven and thus "Exciting" standard Pro Tour.

    That second one is just my views on the situation, might be wrong, likely am, but I doubt Wizards is unhappy about that even if it is a side effect of whatever the real trigger was.
    Given the very abrupt timing of the changes, it could be very likely that lawyers got involved who told them that the current platinum program must be terminated asap. WotC in general has a rather questionable working policy, judges lawsuit aside - paying way below industry standard for most of their positions & firing people below a year of employment to avoid further obligations (mainly in the MTGO sector, but probably in other ones as well). Those constant lay-offs are also one of the reasons why the company culture is so shitty, given that everybody tries to save their own asses. That's what we learned from glassdoorreviews.

    Formats getting solved slower is probably something Wizards likes, but I doubt it would be worth nuking the entire pro scene like that.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I love the "I could have been pro if I tried, I just didn't" argument. I've used it on multiple occasions before realizing that it doesn't mean anything.

    Top 10% is expected of anyone who continues to play any game. If you just start out at a game you suck at it. If you're interested, you'll play longer, and one would assume gain skill. Try getting to the top hundred people in the world in a game that has regular money tournaments, that's the real accomplishment.
    The argument doesn't mean anything until someone has seen you actually play and can testify to your skill. I've had people call me a modder (semi-auto firing like a full-auto) and a botter because I was that quick with my controller inputs.

    Top 10% is not expected of anyone who plays the game a lot, unless you're referring to rank/score, which is not perfectly correlated with skill.
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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Yeah the potential lawsuit thing seems extremely likely to have been a factor here. Judges didn't even have such a great case for a lawsuit and still went for it - people who pay their rent with money that Wizards gives them quarterly in return for being public stars who help market the game...well...that's at least 'an employee' on some conceptual level, even if it may not be by law.

    And if it was the driving force behind this, of course they can't admit it publicly.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    The argument doesn't mean anything until someone has seen you actually play and can testify to your skill. I've had people call me a modder (semi-auto firing like a full-auto) and a botter because I was that quick with my controller inputs.
    Oh my. Well, I didn't know a random person online accused you of hacking. You really must be pro-level. I retract all my previous arguments, consider yourself the winner of this discussion.

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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Kibler makes a pretty good case for how truly shameful this is. Shifting all (or most) of the good money to one tournament is tantamount to turning pro Magic into little more than gambling.

    bmkgaming.com/broken-promises-thoughts-pro-tour-changes

    I don't pretend for a minute that I'm at a level where this is even on the fringe of my concerns, but - maaaan has WOTC been making some shitty shitty PR decisions over the last two years.

    This is the same company that considers the decision to lock-down the Reprint List as "keeping a promise". To whom? To what end? Meanwhile, the people actually playing the game are being told mid-swing that their prizes are being totally undercut, by more than a factor of 10. Promises? To whom?

    As a once-not-bad player who has transitioned to filthy casual status over the last several years - I barely recognize this game anymore. I'm nothing but sympathetic for the people that are leaving their families and connections behind who are getting utterly shafted by this.
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    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Oh my. Well, I didn't know a random person online accused you of hacking. You really must be pro-level. I retract all my previous arguments, consider yourself the winner of this discussion.
    You're indirectly proving my original point that it's easier/takes less time;effort;commitment to become good at a card/video game, so you can't compare sports with eSports.
    Last edited by CutthroatCasual; 04-26-2016 at 01:45 PM.
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  20. #20

    Re: Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

    Geez, you'd think Wizards had announced they were going to start dissolving kittens in a jar of acid, the way people are reacting.

    Look:

    1. Yes, if you were a pro, this stinks. You were able to travel around the world virtually for free to play Magic, now you can't. I feel you. That's a zero-sum loss for you.

    2. People who are making the logical leap from "This is bad for players" to "WotC has broken their promise!" are wrong. No, there was no "promise" that was "broken," guys. The Pro Player's Club policy is quite clear:
    http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/pro-players-club
    Members agree to adhere to all Pro Tour Players Club rules, conditions, and award requirements, as may be modified by Wizards from time to time in its sole discretion. Wizards reserves the right to terminate the Pro Tour Players Club program, or any member's participation in the Club, at any time in its discretion.
    3. Pro sports players get paid, yes, but not by the company that manufacturers footballs or the NFL. They join businesses that operate as sports teams and work for them. Magic isn't big enough for this kind of thing, yet; they don't charge for spectators or coverage.

    4. A better analogy might be race cars. Race car drivers don't work for teams, but instead have to find sponsorship. That's a model that easily translates to MTG. There are already teams for big vendors like Star City and Channel Fireball.

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