Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

[ESG]

When hasn't it looked bad? They have been consistently reducing everything from prize payouts to promos and everything in between, on MODO and in paper, since the beginning of time. People used to make fun of Kibler for switching to Hearthstone, but I assure you he got the last laugh. For the most part being a pro magic player isn't even a feasible thing, even with a sponsor from a game store.

They've been consistently reducing the rewards for judges too (going from guaranteed foils per event to "do a lot of work for free and hope you get picked for exemplar foils"), apparently in an effort to reduce legal liability after the years of thumbing their noses at labor law and counting on the judges' Stockholm syndrome.

[EviL668-2]

So, did they just killed competitive magic?
What's the point on traveling for a GP?

Do you really think people travel to GPs to make money?
99.9% Travel to GPs to sling cardboard, meet friends form all around the continent. (North America or Europe, As I think in Asia this is different).
Try to make DAY 2? Sure! Make money=> hell no!
Try to have a hangover next day? Hellll Yeeeeeha!

[jmlima]

I could not care less for the pro's, i they lose their jobs playing mtg, well, join the club, everyone can lose their job, but this backwards and forwards of WotC decision making is typical of a company that is:

a) adrift
b) led by incompetents
c) a)+b)

[Stan]

WotC played this rather well. This is how collective bargaining is handled in a lot of places. Party A wishes to cut costs by 50%, so they unilaterally cut them by 70%. Party B feels the cut and chimps out, after which party A 'gratiously decides to meet them halfway', and conceeds up to where they wanted to move in the first place. Party B is then dumb enough to celebrate this as a partial victory.

Not sure if you're ignorant or just a total fuckhead, but "chimp out" is overtly racist. This kind of posting is 100% unacceptable. Consider this a first and last warning. If I see this kind of behavior again you'll no longer be welcome here. -zilla

[Dice_Box]

Maybe, I still think this has more to do with orders from on high and lawyers, not costs.

[Stan]

Maybe, I still think this has more to do with orders from on high and lawyers, not costs.

Very well possible, but even then they'd likely play it like this. I suspect that after that lawsuit, somebody figured out that according to some arcane technicality judges or pro players really could be considered as employees in this or that isolated legal system. If those guaranteed payouts could qualify a potentially future platinum member from (random example, could be anything) let's say Lesotho or Mongolia as an employee, they'd have to adapt their strategy globally. I suspect their clamping down on the reserved list a few years ago was done for similar reasons.

[Dice_Box]

Even so, going full Nuclear after the 100th pro tour, with a "Stacked top 8" (others words, I do not know much about standard) and destroying trust in the company does not seem like a smart way to do things. I feel like they could have done this much better:

Offer a one time payment to cover everyone who would be affected and then back away.

Offer this "Compromise" first and then move on from that. (I think people would have accepted the change, they just did not accept the unfairness of it.)

Talk to each of the Pros individually and seek out their views. There are 32 of them, how hard is that to do?

Focus on this 100th pro tour and then burn everything to the ground after the glow has faded. Think about that. Did you even know this was the 100th tour? No nor did I until someone said it on a podcast. That's a massive achievement that Wizards did not bother to capitalise on or promote. Honestly, I am not sure they know what the hell they are doing these days.

[Stan]

This moves away from the Original thread, but one has to wonder what the hell goes on in the heads of those 'compulsive grinders'. Playtesting and grinding takes up a metric fuckton of your time, almost like a fulltime job. Those platinum guys get a meager compensation out of it, but what motivates those guys at silver or gold level to throw every free moment and penny they have on it, combining it with a job, because the payoff is even lower? This game's appeal is a lot bigger than the effort and resources WotC puts into it would merit.

[MaximumC]

This moves away from the Original thread, but one has to wonder what the hell goes on in the heads of those 'compulsive grinders'. Playtesting and grinding takes up a metric fuckton of your time, almost like a fulltime job. Those platinum guys get a meager compensation out of it, but what motivates those guys at silver or gold level to throw every free moment and penny they have on it, combining it with a job, because the payoff is even lower? This game's appeal is a lot bigger than the effort and resources WotC puts into it would merit.

If you could make an (admittedly meager) living just sitting around smoking weed all day, one imagines there would be at least a few people who would sign up.

[iatee]

Uh, that's a terrible comparison. One of those things is being really lazy - the other one involves working harder than a lot of people do at their real jobs, having to travel more often than a consultant does, all while living on scraps.

There are a ton of professional poker players out there, most of whom don't contribute much more value to the world than professional pot smokers. The difference between professional poker players and professional magic players is that there is a reliable payoff for success if you're in the first group. There is not for the second group, which is why it's an unfortunate situation.

I don't know how exactly I would structure tournaments to make things more viable for a professional community. But I think one thing I would do is limit the geography of where tournaments happen. Maybe have 100% of Pro Tours in Seattle at Wizards hqs. That would save an insane amount of money and you could funnel it all into prizes. Who cares if the last Pro Tour was in Madrid? Did we see beautiful panning shots of the Madrid? Did we hear commentary on Spanish Magic culture? Did the enormous crowd root for the Spanish home team? No, none of that mattered, the last Pro Tour could've actually taken place in an empty building in Utah and none of us would have had any idea. It just seems like a huge waste of resources.

If they were to make Seattle the Las Vegas / Hollywood of Magic, that also lets pros move there, live with each other and try to see if they can 'make it' without having to book flights around the world on a 20k salary. This plan obviously makes things pretty rough for any European who wants to be a pro, I don't know how I would solve that problem, maybe Wizards could just get employment visas for a handful of foreign superstars.

[Dice_Box]

That is not a bad idea. Also as an Australian I can say that anyone who wants to be a pro from here just moves to the US. Its just the price of that dream. I am sure though you could have some EU location that would mirror Seattle without too much effort though. It would only leave Asia out in the cold and that is not exactly new to us over here.

[iatee]

Yeah the funny thing is, this plan could *save* Wizards money. I don't think there is some huge demand for Pro Tours to be in exotic places around the world. If anything, hosting tournaments in the same legendary room year after year would be more interesting, would build some tradition, would allow Wizards to give tailored tours to the viewing public of the HQ, you could really make this a way better event for viewers and never have to book space and airline tickets to Kuala Lumpur ever again. That's a lot of money that could be turned into real player salaries. 'Play the game, don't live in dire poverty' sounds way better to me than 'play the game, travel the world.'

So many things about the way Wizards operates are totally due to path dependency and not because they designed the structure of competitive magic with end goals in mind.

[Koby]

If WotC wants to tap into the eSports movement, then it doesn't even need to travel far. The major eSports events happen in recurring cities at annual gaming conventions. Blizzcon, Dreamhack, IEM @ Katowice, PAX, etc.

As much fun as it is to "Play the Game, See the World," we're talking about a competition that's 3 days, 8-9 hours each day, and exclusively indoors. Why is WotC blowing through its marketing budget to host an event at remote (read: airfare) but cool destinations when it could focus on having a localized production venue domestically?

[cdr]

As much fun as it is to "Play the Game, See the World," we're talking about a competition that's 3 days, 8-9 hours each day, and exclusively indoors. Why is WotC blowing through its marketing budget to host an event at remote (read: airfare) but cool destinations when it could focus on having a localized production venue domestically?

Part of it is that the locations are not so remote for a lot of people - Wizards wants the game to be global. They already are picking some of the cheapest locations, by and large - it's nothing like it was 15 years ago.

[Koby]

Part of it is that the locations are not so remote for a lot of people - Wizards wants the game to be global. They already are picking some of the cheapest locations, by and large - it's nothing like it was 15 years ago.

I think the Grand Prix are a good use of the "Play the Game, See the World" mantra from the late 90s. The Pro Tour is super exclusive club to begin with, just due to the onerous qualification requirements. Just because Pro Tour: Cairo is there, does not make it accessible to Egyptians, or anyone in the African Continent to begin with. Grand Prix, with their open access, does provide high level play without the barrier to compete (outside the typical time+money issue).

[phonics]

If WotC wants to tap into the eSports movement, then it doesn't even need to travel far. The major eSports events happen in recurring cities at annual gaming conventions. Blizzcon, Dreamhack, IEM @ Katowice, PAX, etc.

As much fun as it is to "Play the Game, See the World," we're talking about a competition that's 3 days, 8-9 hours each day, and exclusively indoors. Why is WotC blowing through its marketing budget to host an event at remote (read: airfare) but cool destinations when it could focus on having a localized production venue domestically?

Thing is WOTC is beyond incompetent at promoting the game well. As far as I am concerned the vast majority of the game's popularity is derived from it being an extremely well designed game (and the first), in spite of wotc meddling.

Also, is the vsl still canceled?

[MaximumC]

All this talk about centralizing Magic in Seattle or wherever is really unfair to people who do not live in the United States. :(

Uh, that's a terrible comparison. One of those things is being really lazy - the other one involves working harder than a lot of people do at their real jobs, having to travel more often than a consultant does, all while living on scraps.

Well, yeah, maybe, but the point of the metaphor was not about being lazy; it was about doing something that people really enjoy doing as a leisure activity.

These people really enjoy playing Magic. Someone gave them the option of surviving -- if not thriving -- by focusing on Magic entirely. It's like people who get into Magic finance. Dollar-per-hour you might not make much money sorting bulk compared to having a real job, but if you LIKE sorting bulk, then there's more value in that decision for you.

[H]

Also, is the vsl still canceled?

No, it will be back next week, Randy said it the other day.

[cdr]

I think the Grand Prix are a good use of the "Play the Game, See the World" mantra from the late 90s. The Pro Tour is super exclusive club to begin with, just due to the onerous qualification requirements. Just because Pro Tour: Cairo is there, does not make it accessible to Egyptians, or anyone in the African Continent to begin with. Grand Prix, with their open access, does provide high level play without the barrier to compete (outside the typical time+money issue).

Do you pay any attention to where Pro Tours are held? There hasn't ever even been a Cairo, even in the heyday of more expensive locales 15 years ago.

Of late 2 or 3 of 4 are located in the US or Canada, in pretty boring, cheap to very cheap places. I mean, Pro Tour Milwaukee, come on.

Non-North America locations are places like Madrid, Brussels, Valencia, etc with the very occasional major Asian or Australian city (easily accessible from the Asia-Pacific area, which is also a huge market).

The closest thing to "exotic" anymore is Hawaii, which is not any more expense for Wizards than any other location outside the continental US, potentially less.

Wizards's problem is chronic underfunding, not overspending.

[jrsthethird]

In addition, now that the Pro Tours are marketed as Pro Tour: [set name] instead of Pro Tour: [exotic location], no one is going to even care where it is. Although, if they become stationary, they will need to rebrand it somehow, since it's no longer a "Tour".