Prison in Legacy

[Finn]

Legacy is a peculiar beast. It used to be simple to identify what constitutes "prison" as a broad strategy. Same goes for combo", "ramp", etc. There is just so much required overlap that we have to have these discussions.

[GundamGuy]

Legacy is a peculiar beast. It used to be simple to identify what constitutes "prison" as a broad strategy. Same goes for combo", "ramp", etc. There is just so much required overlap that we have to have these discussions.

I don't know that we have to have these discussions. IMO discussion about what deck is or is not which category is pointless...

Now granted we do keep having this conversation on a pretty much weekly basis.

[Crimhead]

Making generalisations about decks and deck types helps to productively discuss the format. Case and point, OP is interested in prison decks. Luckily we have a word for that type of deck!

[MGB]

The proactive strategies in Legacy are too strong for there to be a pure prison deck.

[iatee]

I am pretty sure if fully-outfitted Pox were secretly a T1 legacy deck, someone other than you would have figured it out by now.

[btm10]

Have you played with/against a fully outfitted Pox deck? I run 2x Tabernacles, 2x Abyss, 2x Nether Voids main deck, and have 2x Chains in the board. I demolish people with Pox, especially Delver decks. The only match-up I fear pre-board is Lands.

Yes. I won both times. With BUG Delver.

[Crimhead]

I am pretty sure if fully-outfitted Pox were secretly a T1 legacy deck, someone other than you would have figured it out by now.

In order for a deck to establish itself as tire-one, two cents nditions must be met:

1. The deck must be sufficiently well positioned.
2. There must be a sufficient number of (quality) players willing to push the deck and put it on the map.

How many Legacy players:

• Own multiple copies of the most expensive rares from Legends?
• Actually want to play a dedicated, grindy prison deck?
• Are good players?

RGCL can produce fast wins (making it more appealing to play) and needs only the a single Tabernacle (no Chains, Abyss, or Nethervoid) but still can't produce enough pilots to consistently make DTB. What chance does Pox have?

[iatee]

Yep, though, unlike Lands, you even don't have to be a good player to play Pox. "Hymn to Touch...myself? No wait..the other guy." It's more linear than Burn.

Also the 'Deck is secretly amazing, nobody plays it because it's too expensive' argument doesn't survive scrutiny because all of those cards are super cheap on MTGO, where the deck is nonexistent. Anyone who owns Lilies and Wastelands can build the rest of the deck online for almost nothing.

[btm10]

I think you're committing an error that you usually catch other people with, Crimhead. I agree that Pox is unlikely to ever be a Deck to Beat again, but that doesn't stop it from being "tier 1". Lands is probably the best example of this - it's not played by many people (unless you're in the Northeastern US) but an argument that it's not tier 1 would face a lot of skepticism. Conversely, Pox, even with its fanciest doo-dads, just doesn't have the critical mass of even-to-good matchups against the field that characterize tier 1 decks like Delver, Shardless, and Miracles, nor does it have the extremely skewed matchup numbers that something like Lands does that allows its great matchups to more than make up for its atrocious ones.

[Crimhead]

I think you're committing an error that you usually catch other people with, Crimhead.

In order for a deck to establish itself as tire-one, two conditions must be met:

1. The deck must be sufficiently well positioned.
2. There must be a sufficient number of (quality) players willing to push the deck and put it on the map.

There is a difference between a deck being tier one vs being established as tier one. In November 2013, RGCL was secretly a tier-one deck, but wasn't established as such until 2014.

[Crimhead]

Also the 'Deck is secretly amazing, nobody plays it because it's too expensive' argument doesn't survive scrutiny because all of those cards are super cheap on MTGO, where the deck is nonexistent.

For the record, I do not think Pox is tier one! ;-(

Hadn't considered the online price argument - that's a good point. But I truely believe the art of pure control is on life support. WotC has coddled an entire generation of Magic players - sheltering them from the evils of slow, grindy, make-people-sad, control decks. Especially prison! I'd also guess the majority of Legacy players, especially online, are less than ten year magic veterans.

Between the players who dismiss anything that's not already putting up results, and the players who would rather play something less slow and linear (almost everyone), who is left to push it, even online?

Again, I think Pox < tier one to be certain! But if it ever becomes so again, I think it could potentially take a long time to catch on.

[iatee]

I think the deck is tier 2 because of some things that can't change - it is a nonblue deck that has no card selection, a linear game plan and unlike Eldrazi or Burn that game plan isn't 'win immediately'. Even when it has a strong start, the opponent gets a chance to draw out of it. Many of its topdecks are the worst cards to topdeck - discard spells - instead of spells that keep pressuring the opponent's life total.

When the game plan works well it can beat just about anybody. But there are just too many ways for something to go wrong with that plan. That's not meta-dependent or even something that would be fixed by a new toy for the deck, it's more of a fundamental problem.

[Crimhead]

Pox used to be a good deck - despite having no card selection and a slow game plan.

I think the issue is that everything else in the format has gotten better around it. That means Pox can fall too far behind before putting the opponent into top-deck mode; and that the opponents are far less crippled once they get there.

It helped that there were more decks in the past like Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk that also had no card selection and some code for n top-deck mode. I guess Eldrazi Shops is good for Pox, but it doesn't have the meta share that I have was held by linear creature decks (plus Pox is still worse against everything else).

Pox could in theory become T1 again, but in reality cards like Hymn, Smallpox, and Innocent Blood aren't going to get upgrades ala the power creep we have seen with creatures. Other decks get Delver, KotR, Pyromancer, Mentor, DRS, SFM, etc; while Pox gets Shrieking Affliction and Toxic Deluge. This is why prison decks need a faster way to win these days - midrange and Tempo decks get new toys every year, while they print jack shit in the way of lock pieces.

[Finn]

Pox has never been anything beyond fringe in Legacy.