Counterfeit Magic Cards

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I am surprised that counterfeit cards are not talked about very much. I feel like counterfeits are a big threat to many people's investments in the game and a threat to the future of the eternal formats. I think that the counterfeit issue might mean that eternal formats become online only in the future. If this is the case, hopefully Magic Digital Next provides a good playing experience and client. Anyways, do you think counteefeits will rise in popularity and end up killing paper eternal formats and people's investments in the old and expensive cards of this game? I think WotC can fix this issue by reprinting the reserved list and other highly expensive cards so their price plummets down and makes counterfeiting less desirable. Otherwise, the eternal formats will soon become almost exclusive to online play but not completely abandoned in paper. They will become like what pauper is now.

[Mr.C]

The consensus among the community is that it's not a big deal, they'll never be good enough, etc.

In my case, I've sold off pretty much everything of value. The thing with counterfeits is that don't have to be perfect. They have to be good enough to pass close inspection of more experienced players. Experts will likely never be fooled, but most people who deal with Magic cards are far from experts.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

The consensus among the community is that it's not a big deal, they'll never be good enough, etc.

In my case, I've sold off pretty much everything of value. The thing with counterfeits is that don't have to be perfect. They have to be good enough to pass close inspection of more experienced players. Experts will likely never be fooled, but most people who deal with Magic cards are far from experts.

I've heard of counterfeits that are pretty much indistinguishable from the real card without ripping them and looking at the middle so I wouldn't be so optimistic. I think its just a matter of time...

[Dice_Box]

The issue I have seen is every time this topic comes up it inevitably gets taken off the rails. If I recall, we have a thread that got up to 40 something pages in response to the frame change with the holo sticker that ended in flames.

The topic is unpleasant because in the end, anything that can be made can be replicated. If there is a demand for something that is unfilled people will try and fill that hole. The issue is that as technology advances and the demand goes unfilled... Well, you can finish that sentence yourself.

There is money to be made and indistinguishable cards are worth money.

[MorphBerlin]

I am surprised that counterfeit cards are not talked about very much. I feel like counterfeits are a big threat to many people's investments in the game and a threat to the future of the eternal formats. I think that the counterfeit issue might mean that eternal formats become online only in the future. If this is the case, hopefully Magic Digital Next provides a good playing experience and client. Anyways, do you think counteefeits will rise in popularity and end up killing paper eternal formats and people's investments in the old and expensive cards of this game? I think WotC can fix this issue by reprinting the reserved list and other highly expensive cards so their price plummets down and makes counterfeiting less desirable. Otherwise, the eternal formats will soon become almost exclusive to online play but not completely abandoned in paper. They will become like what pauper is now.

I don't really get your point, why counterfaits should kill eternal formats? I would see a slow stream of good counterfeits getting into the market as an illegal reprint would keep prices from exploding? The money just lands in China and people how get those cards into the market instead of Wizards.

[jawa]

How about revamping the reserved lists so that they can reprint some of the older cards? Wizards make money from reprints.

Or just abolish the reserved list all together. That will bring the prices down considerably to make it less profitable for the counterfeiters.

Personally, I own powers and have playsets of legacy staples. Yet I would like to see the eternal cards reprinted so that players can get hold of the cards. Cards are meant to be played, not speculated on.

[MasterBlaster]

I would like to see all cards taken off the reserve list except those that are on the Vintage restricted list. My collection's value would drop but I would like to see newer players be able to enter eternal formats 1st and foremost.

[Lormador]

I think a lot of the reason experienced players don't seem to care that much is that we already own most of the cards we need, and if the time does come to buy a meaningful card, we're pretty careful. If a fake is indistinguishable to me, even after I've spent a few hours Googling different tests I can perform on a card without damaging it, it'll pass similar tests performed by anyone else, and that makes it good enough to be real.

As a consumer, I benefit from the cards I want to buy being offered at a price I'm willing to pay. I also benefit from the ability to turn my collection into a pile of cash money, and there was indeed one difficult period when this later advantage had to be availed of. Still, that was a weird situation, and I value card availability at this point over the chance to make money off of my cards. They'd need to get a whole lot more valuable for me to consider selling them just for the money. I'd need to be able to buy a house with them, straight up with no debt.

I think I can count on Wizards and their Hasbro overlords to make rational economic decisions if counterfeiters start taking too much of their money. I'd prefer that the guys who designed the game I love received the largess I spend on the hobby, but unfortunately their policy at this time probably prevents a portion of my expenditures from reaching their pockets. Apparently WotC's MBAs fear card investor backlash lawsuits more than they hate watching counterfeiters take their money, giving us a status quo with which I am actually satisfied.

I'd be a little more satisfied if I had a Tabernacle though.

[apple713]

The thing about counterfitting cards is that the more you sell, the less valuable they become. So a person counterfitting singles probably wont have any effect on the market value. If he produces enough to affect the market value he would be better off mass producing sealed product.

[Ricardio]

How about revamping the reserved lists so that they can reprint some of the older cards? Wizards make money from reprints.

Or just abolish the reserved list all together. That will bring the prices down considerably to make it less profitable for the counterfeiters.

Personally, I own powers and have playsets of legacy staples. Yet I would like to see the eternal cards reprinted so that players can get hold of the cards. Cards are meant to be played, not speculated on.

I would like to see all cards taken off the reserve list except those that are on the Vintage restricted list. My collection's value would drop but I would like to see newer players be able to enter eternal formats 1st and foremost.

I don't have power but I have a sizable collection without many legacy players in my area. I was super excited when they spoiled EMA but sad because I knew the greedy minority would take the chance and drive up duals to make the format once again hard to break into. I want everyone to have access to legacy and enjoy what a wonderful format it is but I don't want it to become modern where the prices are always dictated by a handful of greedy bastards willing to destroy the game they are making money off of. I hate speculators and hoarders. People can't complain about modern because its gotten so bad recently that the prices are beginning to rival legacy staples.

[Watersaw]

Honestly, what is there to talk about? There's not much new to say. Cardboard is expensive, WotC won't reprint certain cards (I'm actually surprised at Force of Will making it into Eternal Masters after all those times MaRo said how reprinting it is a minefield and refusing to comment further), hobbies are not an investment, Chinaman won't actually hurt the market but his products will occasionally ruin someone's day, more fakes means more people play paper.

[Crimhead]

In theory fakes are no more dangerous to the market than genuine reprints. The danger is that fakes will be printed in such large numbers that prices will crash and LGSs will close their doors or just stop supporting Legacy.

[jrsthethird]

I hope that the increasing quality and availability of counterfeit cards causes Wizards to back down on the RL to preserve the integrity of competitive events. If counterfeiters become too much of a problem, they can reprint fresh cards with ugly holograms (maybe even foil-only) to ensure authenticity.

[Watersaw]

I hope that the increasing quality and availability of counterfeit cards causes Wizards to back down on the RL to preserve the integrity of competitive events. If counterfeiters become too much of a problem, they can reprint fresh cards with ugly holograms (maybe even foil-only) to ensure authenticity.

Foil only cards seem like a great way to annoy judges

[thecrav]

The thing about counterfitting cards is that the more you sell, the less valuable they become. So a person counterfitting singles probably wont have any effect on the market value. If he produces enough to affect the market value he would be better off mass producing sealed product.

Just going by bulk entry on TCGP, a set of blue duals will run you in the $3400 area. The counterfeiters will need to drive prices way, way down for it to stop being worth it.

[Dice_Box]

Cardboard is cheap. These people print DECKS of playing cards for pennies. Something dumb like 17 cents a deck. It would take a lot for them printing MTG cards not to be worth it with those overheads.

[tescrin]

I was super excited when they spoiled EMA but sad because I knew the greedy minority would take the chance and drive up duals to make the format once again hard to break into.

Is it "greedy" that the free market is ruled by supply and demand? Is it greedy for me to sell Kitchen Finks for $13 when I bought them for $2.50? I bought them to use them; and it's only now that the price is high enough that I want to. Supply and demand. I don't need to go through the trouble of getting stamps and letters and putting it on ebay and mailing it etc.. and I don't value my time more than the 1.50 or so of supply and fuel to get it to the person who wants it to even have myself break even.

Please do not drag your morality in on a high horse and tell everyone that what is essentially emergent behavior is actually a bunch of terrible greedy lords punishing the poor plebs.

Why is it immoral to want my time to give you something you're asking for to be worth something?

[MaximumC]

Any thread about counterfiets explodes into whining about the Reserve List (it's not going away, stop it) and people fighting over prices. We saw that happen in the first five posts here.

And who am I to stand in the way?

Why is it immoral to want my time to give you something you're asking for to be worth something?

You're confusing someone's opinion about what they want with "high moral" statements.

It is certainly true that Magic cards reach the maximum price the market will bear faster than they used to. Information is perfect with the internet, cards can be purchased from anywhere, anytime, and there's a thriving community dedicated to figuring out which cards could go up and buying them out to force the market to make a decision about the card's maximum price.

Whether you think it's GOOD that Magic cards very quickly find the maximum price the market will bear is a personal decision. Pro-speculators talk about how it's a price the market WILL bear, after all, and anti-speculators talk about how it's the MAXIMUM such price.

MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE PLOT

Counterfeits are bad for the game, and there's no reason to support them.

While the community usually uses the word "proxy" to mean any non-official card being used as a real one, that's not really the right term of art and it can be confusing in conversation. Wizards has defined three kinds of non-official cards: (1) Proxies, which are authorized replacements by a judge if your real card was damaged during a tournament; (2) Counterfeits, which are non-authentic cards that try to pass as real cards; and (3) Play-Test Cards, which are non-authentic cards that would not pass as real even under even the most casual inspection.

Sharpied basic lands, and the cards Gumgod linked, fall into the "Play-Test" category. Chinese fakes fall into the "Counterfeit" category.

Paper Vintage (at least) cannot survive without some form of unofficial cards due to the cost and card availability of the format, so I totally get that people need access to some kind of unofficial card. What I take issue with, however, are people using Counterfeits and calling them "proxies." That's wrong. Even if you're upfront with people about the fact that the cards are not genuine, you have contributed to the production of more counterfeits and increased the risk that your counterfeits will someday get into circulation and someone will be defrauded.

Luckily, you don't have to go get a counterfeit card if you want to play with something snazzy looking. You can find dozens of artists on Etsy who do exactly this, printing or painting custom Play Test cards. They don't fool anyone, and in many cases they look better than the original card did anyway. You can have your cake and eat it too.

Now, Wizards probably is not OK with even Playtest cards, at least if they use the mana symbols or other copyrighted materials. But, if you are going to have unofficial cards in your deck, the whole community is better off if you choose these Play-Test cards and STAY AWAY FROM COUNTERFEITS.

[TsumiBand]

I don't think people look at it in terms of "good" or "bad" so much as on a sanity spectrum. Sometimes, one looks back from the eBay searches for reasonably priced Beta duals, JTMS, LED and other vaunted trinkets and realizes that they're spending hundreds or thousands of dollars at a time on a cardboard product for people aged 13 and up.

[Zombie]

I don't think people look at it in terms of "good" or "bad" so much as on a sanity spectrum. Sometimes, one looks back from the eBay searches for reasonably priced Beta duals, JTMS, LED and other vaunted trinkets and realizes that they're spending hundreds or thousands of dollars at a time on a cardboard product for people aged 13 and up.

Cardboard product that used to, and could, cost a few dollars a piece.