Blinking Bow untaps it, but it is summoning sick...so not that much mana sink ;-)
Played Thragtusk as a one off in older builds with Green Sun' s Zenith and it was obviously good against my nemesis burn. May be worth another try. Still not sure if it is better as my loved Drops of Honey. But the endless life / token blink can you get out of random situations ( e.g. Glacial Chasm - both will not loose but you will not loose forever).
Yeah sorry, I’m just trying to find the right combo of cards that makes the actual combo easy to assemble. You’d think I was a card pusher :)Originally Posted by Fjaulnir
I just ordered my Lotus Cobras 2-3 days ago, so I'm still behind on versions I have to test
I like the brainstorming a lot. Unfortunately, as others have mentioned it would return summoning sick :-/
Yeah, I’m not feeling like I have struck gold with Thragtusk, but it has won me games due to its lifegain. Once as described above vs. Turbo Depths, and again vs. Burn I was locked out of dig cards with Pyrostatic Pillar, and found Thragtusk off of Mirri’s Guile. That got me the 5 life and the blocker I needed. The only other card that could have gotten me out of that situation was Parallax Wave as I had Opalescence on the battlefield.Blinking Bow untaps it, but it is summoning sick...so not that much mana sink ;-)
Played Thragtusk as a one off in older builds with Green Sun' s Zenith and it was obviously good against my nemesis burn. May be worth another try. Still not sure if it is better as my loved Drops of Honey. But the endless life / token blink can you get out of random situations ( e.g. Glacial Chasm - both will not loose but you will not loose forever
The slot may just want to be Phyrexian Unlife if we are truly racing that will give us a few more turns vs. 1 TNN, plus give us an additional 3/3 body to race with. In addition, it (kinda) blanks life loss, i.e. Tendrils of Agony as we don’t die at 0 or less life, and life loss is not damage so no poison.
If we’re not interested in the life loss tech there is this card I found today Consulate Surveillance.
It works off the same principal of testing Story Circle but this works off of energy, and not mana. Since there is an ETB trigger of 4 energy or 2 activations it will do something with no combo out there, but if the combo is out there we could prevent damage (not life loss) from infinite sources, from infinite colors, indefinitely so long as the combo and that card remains with a 4/4 body to boot.
Edit - oh, and as for the Terminus vs Replenish the two can coexist. I like playing with more Replenish in this digging version again because it essentially "blanks" discard a popular combo disruption. Many times when people go that route, without an extraction effect, they just ramp us as Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library with fetch shuffles can find one of the 3 fairly reliably.
Happy New Year dev. team! ...and when in paper remember, Opalescence is symmetrical. :)
Some more Tournament Practice results:
Big Red Moon 2-0
Grixis 0-2 – Again Mana Denial
Manaless dredge 0-2
Storm - ANT 1-2 – opponent won t0 I had chant
UW Control 1-2 / 2-1 - Got doulbe Surgical Extractioned Match 1 , played around it match 2
Burn 2-1
Turbo Depths 2-0
Burn 2-1
UWB Stoneblade 2-0
BW Bitterblossom 2-0
TES 2-1 - Chant, Leyline, & Faerie got there games 2 & 3
Doomsday 1-2
UR Delver 2-1
Pox 2-0
UB Control 2-0
Since mana denial has been too effective against us I have cut an Enchantress’s Presence and added a forest to bump the land count up to 21. Deck still runs fine.
4 Parallax Wave
3 Replenish
4 Opalescence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Sylvan Library
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Mirri's Guile
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chant
2 Thragtusk
Last edited by Freggle; 01-02-2018 at 04:27 PM.
So Tom Ross is playing OmniTack these days?(you blacked out his name but it's still in the Turn indicator and the Phase text box)
I was aware of the effect (modo always reminds me indeed) and have exiled many a Blood Moon etc with it. It's also made the semi-mirror vs Regular Enchantress laughable..
Only enchantments that ever wrecked me were Nyx Fit due to Dovescape...
Doh, that wasn't the point. I will black / white that out later when I am back home. That match was upwards of a year ago, and it took place in the "Just for Fun" area of MTGO when I was initially testing our different versions of the deck. The match was fun, and it was great to see the combo totally blank S&T gameplan. Even the early version of the deck with 1 or 2 Oblivion Ring main. I'm trying to compile some screenshots to update the original primer in the coming weeks, and I thought that this would be a good one to illustrate the symmetrical nature of Opalescence.So Tom Ross is playing OmniTack these days?
I was aware of the effect (modo always reminds me indeed) and have exiled many a Blood Moon etc with it. It's also made the semi-mirror vs Regular Enchantress laughable..
Only enchantments that ever wrecked me were Nyx Fit due to Dovescape...
P.s. - I really don't like loosing to Enchantress, and it's pretty satisfying to exile the deck even with 1 Sterling Grove out.
Hello, i'm testing the deck (after have tried it when you have opened the thread), but i have a very big problem playing non-cantrip decks (and i play almost non cantrip decks, lol). I'm a Nyx Fit player, and after almost year of testing i've built a 4 color build of it, and i'm wondering if -in your opinion- is it possible to try a Bant version here.
Yeah although you gotta be a bit lucky - I've still lost plenty of games due to dropping Parallax Wave off Show and Tell, and them getting to draw 7-14 in response to the exile activation. Usually it does buy a few turns, but they often just keep jamming Emrakuls off their Omniscience until I run out of counters and they get back their stuff.
Having an Opalescence already to exile Omniscience helps though (and also to reset fading counters/exile permanently), but assembling both has only worked in a minority of games iirc.
I have also lost often due to not dropping the O-Ring effect but instead greedily dorpping the Parallax Wave - them dropping Omniscience would have done nothing with the O Ring ETB trigger, whereas them getting to cast Griselbrand and draw a bunch more, see the above scenario about my losses.
It does hedge better against SnT into Sneak Attack though as there you're just dead if they have a red mana open to activate in response to the ETB of O Ring.
From my experience I'd always pick O Ring over Wave now though if I have both in hand and no Opalescence out.
I have played with the thought of adding Brainstorms (or Ponders) to Enchantress before, just never got around to it. (Although I've Jace-stormed out of the SB in UG Enchantress occasionally, as 4 mana isn't much harder than 1 for Enchantress)
More power to you if you find a build that works with cantrips though :-)
You can, but at this time I’m unsure what you would gain. The original (now 18 year old list) was UW, and if you wanted to play blue, I think you would just keep it UW and be more control than to try and go bant. It would be a lot more classic control like build, and not as aggressive as the GW version.
Blue gets you:
• Counter magic
• Cantrips
• Search for Azcanta
• Intuition
• Detention Sphere
• Attunement – (Possibly)
• Parallax Tide – (Possibly)
• Show and Tell – (Possibly)
• Jaces…
This deck likes to tap out, so playing non-free counterspells. …and since you would likely want to play Force of Will you would want the deck to have 24 or more blue spells.
That would give you a shell something like:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Search for Azcanta
4 Detention Sphere
4 force of Will
3 Intuition
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
3 Replenish
4 Terminus
4 Parallax Wave
4 Opalescence
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Island
That could be equally competitive I believe, but then you’re up against Pyroblast, and other common blue hate.
Now the latest versions of the GW version runs the equivalent number of “pseudo cantrips” 8 – (Mirri’s Guile, and Sylvan Library) so it has the same amount of “dig” it also has the green Dig Through Time (Kruphix’s Insight) that can either reload our hand, or fill the yard to go broken.
I’m not going to discount a UW version, because, let’s face it, it’s blue. …but the green version as far as I can tell can go somewhat close to toe-to-toe as the blue, and sidestep a good deal of blue hate.
EDIT:
Here is a bant list I brainstormed today I'd be interested in trying, but it's likely just garbage. (no cantrips) ...but who wouldn't want to Hypergenesis an animated Decree of Silence into play?
4 Ardent Plea
4 Detention Sphere
2 Decree of Silence
3 Shardless Agent
4 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
3 Mulldrifter
2 Hypergenesis
3 Kruphix's Insight
4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Wave
2 Starfield of Nyx
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Forest
5 Plains
Lands: 21
FOW Count: 24
Kruphix count Enchantment Count: 20 -- Including combo card Ardent Plea
...man it would be fun if it worked. If this is explored it warrants a different thread.
Last edited by Freggle; 01-02-2018 at 03:19 PM.
Looking at the match losses I decided mid Testing day to bump the decks land now up to 22. This helps alleviate the mana denial strategies. Didn't cut Replenish and add the land till the 2nd Grixis MU below.
I also opted to Test Fjaulnir tech of Leyline of the Void. Noticing the above match losses to manaless dredge, and reanimator I figured it was warranted even though it's next to impossible for the deck to cast.
List ran tonight:
Main:
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Wave
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Sylvan Library
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Replenish
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Forest
2 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
Side:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chant
4 Leyline of the Void
Tournament Practice Match Results: 6-2 in Matches
Mono Green infect 2-0
Grixis 1-2 L
Belcher 2-1
UR Delver 1-2 L
Grixis 2-1
Jund2-1
12 Post 2-1 - Both wins Replenish off of All is Dust was clutch. Combo for cleanup - No Ugin
Sneak and Show 2-0 - Game two was insane. I won with an Omnitell in play and through 4 Force of Wills, and 1-2 Emrakuls, and 3ish Grizzys.
List still runs clean with 22 lands.
If all hold Fjaulnir plan to do a test Stream this Sat. morning at 9EST. Come join to discuss card choices, and improve the deck.
https://www.twitch.tv/forbiddengrove
Last edited by Freggle; 01-03-2018 at 01:35 AM.
As much as I want to take part in the stream I will take the beauty of Opal Wave to all legacy tournaments at mkm series Frankfurt this weekend
Haha that's great!! You're also the guy that bought 1 of the cheaper MKM Candles for UG from under my nose right?
Got a finished list already that you're happy about, or do you still need some tweaking?
Speaking of Candles: RE the Lotus Cobra tech, wouldn't Candelabras make more mana for the deck by turn 3? Off a turn 1 Sprawl, Candle adds 0 (and costs 0) turn 2, but after that (esp. with Serra's Sanctum) it adds a lot more usually. Cobra adds 2 on turn 2, so allows for Cobra into 3 drop on turn 2.
Additionally Cobra turns on their otherwise mostly dead removal, whereas Candle makes you weaker to Chalice (and hence also Blood Moon decks which Cobra color filters nicely around) and Revoker or Wear / Tear from the board. I think the removal argument wins out here though as more decks play the former and less the latter.
I feel that there's no way 4x Mirris Guile 4x Sylvan Library is right, it's just too much redundancy of 'reorder top 3 in upkeep'.
Cobra seems bad for turning on opponent's removal (Arbor Elf is also v strong in this deck with 4x Growth 4x Sprawl if you really have to play a mana creature).
I would be more inclined to think:
- Fertile Ground over mana creatures, if more mana is needed
- Vessel of Nascency replacing some or all of Mirri's Guile
- Some copies of either Enlightened Tutor or Sterling Grove instead of x4 Oblivion Ring x4 Mirri's Guile
Yeah 8-Guile seemed a bit too much to me too. Wasn't the count only increased by so much to accommodate Terminus, which was cut again from the most recent lists?
Also, what this deck needs is clearly just for Frantic Search to be unbanned, that would solve all of the above in a heartbeat
Yeah that is right I am the Candle-Thief. Good taste for decks ;-)Haha that's great!! You're also the guy that bought 1 of the cheaper MKM Candles for UG from under my nose right?
Got a finished list already that you're happy about, or do you still need some tweaking?
Speaking of Candles: RE the Lotus Cobra tech, wouldn't Candelabras make more mana for the deck by turn 3? Off a turn 1 Sprawl, Candle adds 0 (and costs 0) turn 2, but after that (esp. with Serra's Sanctum) it adds a lot more usually. Cobra adds 2 on turn 2, so allows for Cobra into 3 drop on turn 2.
Additionally Cobra turns on their otherwise mostly dead removal, whereas Candle makes you weaker to Chalice (and hence also Blood Moon decks which Cobra color filters nicely around) and Revoker or Wear / Tear from the board. I think the removal argument wins out here though as more decks play the former and less the latter.
I am on a mix list of all of these great ideas here.
Candle could be great again but needs to be tested more.
4 Sylvan and 4 Guile is neccesary for Terminus. However I want to have as less non-enchantment cards in my deck as possible. So at the moment I am on 1 Fertile and 2 Grove and 4 Sylvan and no Cobra noTerminus and still 2 Doomwake.
I can see your point, and I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
I combined all of the matches we all have posted on here to determine:
Of 172 matches we have faced Storm, Miracles, Grixis Delver, and D&T the most. In addition, 3 of the 4 are some of our worst match-ups to date (not Miracles).
Playing the deck I know that the mana denial that is effective is a combo of Ghost Quarter, Stifle, Wasteland, Rishadan Port. If you notice most of those affect basics, and or our path to basics.
To me part of the issue is our faulty mana base, and the other part is our reliance on growth spells. I was going to type a long post, but I’ll have to keep it short for now. Since we typically do not draw (no Enchantress Effect) on playing our growth spells like you do in typical Enchantress playing our Growth spells at all is a liability. Losing the land (Ghost Quarter) or getting it tapped down is not a effective use of the slot.
This would be effective if we ramped over our opponents, and won, but currently it does not, and we need to address it. Therefore, IMHO playing Fertile Ground on T2, and getting it Dazeed or Pierced does not seem like the best route to take.
All of our tough MU’s are where we do not have time to develop our game plan. Playing more expensive tutors, Sterling Grove or dig spells Vessel of Nascency is also not the answer as it will slow us more.
To me we have to dissect the deck and try and side-step the issue, and try and buy us more time via “stall cards” Combining both is likely best. I will test tonight cutting Wild Growth for Terminus and / or Elephant Grass.
Here is how the deck works today, when you have access to 11 cards (initial 7, +1 Draw, +3 looks) a rough number we only see our stall card 1 out of 3 games, and when we do since it’s 3 mana Oblivion Ring or 4 mana Parallax Wave it’s usually successfully dazed or pierced, or Thalia’ed…
However, with retooling the deck we would now see the card 2 out of 3 games at a much lower mana cost. That switch alone should buy us time to develop our mana and get to the late game where we are favored.
With these added stall cards we could go back to a yard hate card with less variance, that we could Guile into t2 as opposed to going all in on Leyline, adding more stability to the deck.
As for the 8 Look at the top 3. They are crucial in preventing mulligans, and adding much needed consistency to the deck. Currently, there is nothing more you want to see in the early turns, and I have on many occasions prioritized Guile over a growth spell in this deck as it is the most correct thing to do. (there isn’t much to ramp into on 3)
Edit: Tested. Pulling any growth spell was not ideal. May just have to find room in the board for Carpet of Flowers
Last edited by Freggle; 01-04-2018 at 09:35 AM.
I agree that carpet is probably a great card for this deck if you can find room for it.
One really bizarre suggestion that could work for adding mana is Eladamri's Vineyard. If there is any deck that wants it, it's probably this one, but it still probably isn't good enough.
Yeah I'd even dare run 1-2 Carpet maindeck on MTGOmuch less nonblue decks there than in paper in my experience.
On another note, still RE Story Circles, TNNs etc: has anyone given any thought to Gideon's Intervention here? It's less mana intensive than Story Circle, and can also randomly hose combo decks as well if you survive long enough. Or prevent you from getting All is Dusted vs Eldrazi - or as their stuff is colorless, even prevent you from dying at all which Story Circle can't.
On the other hand, Circle defends against Marit Lages and Burn better.
Also,
"Freggle has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."
Cleared. Sorry.Also,
"Freggle has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."
Overall Runed Halo should be better than Gideon ' s Intervention. And even this was not good enough for me.
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