You lose Stronghold Gambit in the side, but if the only other red card is Looting, can't you just run 3 U Seas and Careful Study to make the mana base more consistent?Originally Posted by ShiftedClock
Isn't the flashback of FL still just too good to pass up for Careful Study?
If you want to play Careful Study over Faithless Looting, you are in the wrong thread. The mana base should never ever be an issue for B/R. The idea to bypass gy hate with Gambits and S & T is not new and certainly not a bad idea in an unsolved meta with presumably way more "hard" gy hate. But I wouldn't skip CB, since D&T and UW Stoneblade seem to become more popular. CB is just too good imho.
That said, apparantly Phyrexian Crusader became a serious option against those white decks. With Deathrite axed there's no longer a reason to play Grim Lavamancer over it.
Thought I'd take a crack at turning BR's sideboard into burning reanimator since the meta is so heavy on graveyard hate right now. Definitely nowhere near perfect but I'm looking for advice on improvements.
Mainboard:
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor
1 Iona
1 Tidespout
1 Elesh Norn
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
2 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Reanimate
4 Animated Dead
4 Exhume
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Mountain
Sideboard:
3 Burning Wish
2 Reverent Silence
1 Ancient Grudge
1 By Force
2 Nature's Claim
2 Massacre
3 Defense Grid
1 Inkwell Leviathan
I run 1 extra land and 1 Chrome Mox in place of 2 more discard spells because Defense Grid, Burning Wish, and By Force are mana-intensive cards and I don't want to get taxed out or Wastelanded out of the game so easily. There's a 2/2 split between Reverent Silence and Nature's Claim because Leyline of the Void plus Wasteland on your 1 Bayou spells doom, and its ability to take artifacts isn't irrelevant either. Maybe it's correct to just run a second Bayou but it leaves you that much more vulnerable to Wasteland, especially coming from RUG delver.
Ideally I'd make one more slot in the sideboard for Iona/Elesh Norn so I can run the fourth Griselbrand but space is really tight. I also had thoughts about a singleton Stronghold Gambit in the board since it's situational but amazing but it's way less good with only 3 Griselbrand and the cards it's competing with are much better.
Any thoughts/ideas/criticisms appreciated.
Love me some burning wish. Have you tried to get some LEDs in there as well? Burning wish/Exhume/Animate Dead/Reanimate, hold priority crack LED, discard a fatty, reanimate fatty? I have posted some BW lists in TinFins if you want to check it out. I usually take 1 Exhume put it in the sideboard and main deck 1 unburial rites because you can entomb fetch the URites. Just a thought. BW just becomes another reanimate slot.
I like how you think my good sir, something like this?
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin Gitaxis
4 Exhume
4 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Swamps
1 Scrublands
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Reanimate
1 Stitch Together
1 Massacre
1 Meltdown
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Unmask
4 Wear/Tear
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Last edited by Final Fortune; 07-13-2018 at 11:52 AM.
- You need 1 Exhume for the sideboard so 3x Exhume and 1x URites takes that 4 slot.
- I would also take a similar role with Reanimate and do 3x Reanimate main, 1x side.
- You don't need the spirit guides. I probably want more disruption of Annex or Discard.
So here's my TinFins list and the subs // I would make for BR Reanimator:
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis // Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Laboratory Maniac // Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave // 3 Reanimate, 1 Animate Dead
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask // 2 Collective Brutality
1 Cabal Therapy // Collective Brutality
1 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou // 1 Scrubland
1 Scrubland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
// Sideboard
4 Silent Gravestone // 4 Wear // Tear
1 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens // 1 Empty the Warrens, 1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence // 1 Ashen Rider
1 Massacre
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Innocent Blood // 1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Toxic Deluge// 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
For sideboarding, it is a bad idea to play LEDs into counter decks so I would just swap the 4 LEDs for 4 Wear//Tear. Also, the above list would just be my version because of personal preferences, but I always viewed BR Reanimator as being threat dense. So I could easily see a combination of -1 Burning Wish, -1/2 LED, -1 Conflagrate, and/or -1/2/3 Collective Brutality for 4x more creatures. If you wanted more threats, I would probably lean towards the -1 BW, -2 LED, -1 CBru for 4x Chancellor of the Annex.
MDing Reanimate and SBing Exhume in a LED based deck makes no sense to me, MD Reanimate has no synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond and SB Reanimate can already be used with Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond in order to reanimate a creature from in hand - if you're worried about life loss then you can SB a Stitch Together as you're likely to have threshold off of a Lion's Eye Diamond activation and keep the MD Exhume where it belongs.
Simian Spirit Guide is hit and miss, without the Land, Simian Spirit Guide, Faithless Looting into Reanimate play I'm leaning towards Unmask or Cabal Therapy to free up SB space.
Unfortunately I just realized Animate Dead gets countered by Stifle, so I think I'm going to cut 4 Animate Dead for 3 more Burial Rites and another Jin Gitaxis.
- You really should have an exhume in the sideboard. Cast LED, Cast BW, hold priority, crack LED in response, bin fatty, fetch Exhume, cast exhume.
- Brutality with escalate/Thoughtseize/Faithless then reanimate. You don't want to dilute your main ggez route, no? I still think Reanimate is a very strong card.
- I myself went up to 14 lands over the 13 because of similar thoughts. Just remember if you do 4 BW and 4 LED, you are lowering the B count for Unmask. That's the reason I went down to 2 myself over the 3/4 I had ran for awhile.
- I think swapping another URites instead of the Animate Dead is a good call at the minimum. It is mana intensive though and you won't always have an LED. Remember you can fetch it too. I don't think you want 4x.
Sideboard Exhume also is good against Surgical...
4xUnburial Rites aims for aggressive mulligans into land/petal, LED, Unburial Rites and GGEZ while giving you the ability to grind thru' counters by casting it from hand and then flashing it back from yard - my list looks really close to this list http://www.starcitygames.com/article...in-Legacy.html
Unmask is too resource intensive, in normal BR Reanimator you've got more black cards to discard and Reanimate to bring back a creature immediately so Cabal Therapy looks better in the end. Collective Brutality is expensive and there's no Dark Ritual -> Collective Burtality -> Reanimate line to be had, I think those are all normal BR choices but not necessarily suited for Wish/LED builds.
Again, SB Exhume makes no sense to me, Reanimate does the same thing and Stiched Together is close enough to Exhume if you're worried about your life total.
Edit: Ah, you're going the Shallow Graves/Goryo's Vengeance route, I'll try that a bit later as it leaves the deck "threat" lite without being able to Jin Gitaxis at all - I'm trying to keep my threats on the board for now.
lol... nobody is going to waste a Surgical on Exhume against Reanimator.
Idk if you guys have had much discussion on Remorseful Cleric, but it is extremely powerful against Exhume. In testing, I've vialed one in in response to Exhume, popped it removing their graveyard, then allowed Exhume to resolve and choosing Remorseful Cleric to be put back on the battlefield. I know sometimes you can get ahead of it but it's an interaction you should be aware of, at least.
Yeah, this could be a bummer. On the other hand: is it worse than Containment Priest at the same speed? Or R.I.P.?
I'm jamming a new list with the DRS banning and the return of hard graveyard hate, haven't tried this exact list yet as Show and Tell and USea is in the mail but I think it's worth a look.
10 Creatures:
3 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Ashen Rider
12 Reanimation:
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
15 Discard/Enablers:
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
9 Fast mana:
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
14 land:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
2 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Show and Tell
4 Defense Grid
3 Burning wish
1 Massacre
1 Coffin Purge
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
The list is a bit rough but Defense Grid at least has felt solid and is, IMO, a great reason to continue playing BR over UB. It's a blowout vs RUG delver and holds down a lot of the redundant answers miracles has. It also makes targeting yourself for discard a much less risky proposition and allows for more protected early combo turns postboard and even silly stuff like Burning Wish for Show and Tell to cast the next turn becomes a good option when your opponent is unable to answer it.
I've cut down on Chancellors because it's usually our worst reanimation target and because we no longer have to worry about turn 1 DRS coming down. I added an Ashen Rider because it's a better Show and Tell target than Chancellor, same reason why I cut Archetype of Endurance for Inkwell Leviathan. I've also cut a piece of discard and a Lotus Petal for Chrome Mox to power out the Defense Grid/Show and Tell/Burning Wish plays more consistently. There's a single island there so we don't get get swept off our Show and Tell plan by a single Wasteland; maybe it's a mistake especially with it being useless pre-board but I feel it plays an important role postboard in Wasteland matchups. Will update with results as soon as I can but for now I'd like some opinions and ideas.
This looks very close to my own list, therefor I like it (with a few exceptions).
First of all: I'd play the 4th Petal over a 2nd Chrome Mox anytime all the time. It's card disadvantage and with 4 Unmask in addition you possibly get some awkward hands.
Regarding Chancellor I am pretty sure playing 3 is even worse than playing 4. You really want them in your opening hand game 1, so I'd rather play 0 than 3.
Then I'd max BW and cut 1-2 Defense Grid to fit some Artifact hate into the board. You need sth. to remove Chalice, etc.
For some spice I'm using Cephalid Colisseum, but haven't tested it a lot so far, so I wouldn't recommend it.
I got an idea today which may be amazing or horrible, I'm genuinely not sure which. I was watching some Legacy coverage, and TES was going off and Burning Wish looked pretty amazing and it got me thinking. Currently, most lists are either splashing green for Reverent Silence or white for Wear//Tear. While these cards are excellent at what they do, they're very narrrow and siding in 4 copies feels pretty terrible. However, if we played a Burning Wish sideboard, it would be possible to play only 1 copy of these narrow effects. Our game 1 right now is pretty great with DRS gone so there's no sense slowing down the deck, so I'd put Wish and its targets all in the SB. Here are some quick pros and cons:
Pros:
- Avoids siding in multiple potentially dead cards (i.e. RevSilence when they don't open Leyline). If the opponent doesn't have the hate, Burning Wish isn't a dead card, it can grab a Sorcery we sided out (discard spell, reanimation spell, looting)
- Adds consistency in post-board games: As alluded to above, we often have to trim a few copies of different effects post-board to make space for sideboard cards. For instance, we might go from 12 reanimation spells down to 10. By using Burning Wish, even if we side out 2 Exhume, we actually end up with 14 reanimation spells since Wish can grab one from the board if we don't need an anti-hate card.
Cons:
- Slows down the deck: Burning Wish is a 2 mana sorcery which gets us another sorcery. Unless we're in the late game, it's very unlikely that we can go Wish into Answer into Combo in a single turn. To me this doesn't seem like a game breaker since we're slowing down post-board anyway, but it would be disengenuous not to mention it.
- Prone to blowouts vs countermagic: If our opponent lets us Wish for a card, then counters that card, we've invested lots of time and mana into doing nothing, which can be a brutal tempo swing.
Below is an example sideboard built on this principle, using the green splash (although options exist for the white splash as well). The board isn't all dedicated to the Wish package, I'm still packing utility fatties, gy hate and an Abrade as a versatile card that's easy to bring in for multiple matchups. Without further ado:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Coffin Purge
1 By Force
1 Collective Brutality
4 Burning Wish
1 Abrade
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Reverent Silence
1 Elesh Norn
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Iona
There's lots of other interesting options I couldn't fit it, such as Massacre or a lone copy of Stronghold Gambit for when you know the coast is clear and have a fatty ready to go, I threw this particular board together in just a few minutes, but I think the idea has potential.
Any thoughts? Is this genius or stupidity?
PS. Before anyone says, I did see TokenMaster's post just a little above mine with Burning Wish, but his list seems to use it mainly as extra copies of Show and Tell and a lone Massacre rather than a toolbox approach (which also seems worth exploring frankly, but I don't have U-Seas so I'll leave that experiment to others).
*cough* check TinFins on the forum right now *cough* ... We're playing with a lot of Burning builds.
There's one of my Burning Wish lists on the OP.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/426193#online
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
No offense, but I feel like you kind of missed the point of my post. I'm not saying no one has ever played Burning Wish in Griselbrand shells before, I'm saying that no one is doing so NOW in the way which I suggest. Tin Fins, although a close relative of BR Reanimator, has a wholly different use for Wish, it wants to draw its deck with Children then Wish for Tendrils and kill people on the spot. The fact that Wish can grab sideboard cards is a plus, but in my understanding, not the primary reason it is played. Also, Tins Fins plays LED which interacts very favorably with Burning Wish, so the fact that it is viable in that deck doesn't automatically mean it would be viable in this one, which was the point of my post - is a Burning Wish SB a good option for "stock" BR Reanimator lists right now.
@ DNSolver: Similarly to above, the decklist you're referring to is quite different from current stock BR lists, and seems to be a cross with Tin Fins, looking to Tendrils people out. In all honesty, I hadn't looked at the OP in a while and thought for sure that list played the Wishes in the main as well, but I still think that your list's objective is different enough from what "regular" BR Reanimator is doing that we can't equate Wish being good in your list and Wish being good in a stock list.
Maybe I should have clarified in my post, I wasn't trying to imply that no one has ever thought of what I suggested, merely that no one seems to be trying that right now and it seems like it might be exactly what we're looking for to avoid diluting our deck post board with narrow answers that are horrible when they're unneeded (ever draw Reverent Silence when opponent doesn't have Leyline? Feels pretty bad). Could we have an actual discussion on whether a Burning Wish board is good CURRENTLY in BR, or should we just stick to being pedantic and pointing out that other similar decks have played Burning Wish before?
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