Exactly, that's why I said 'it's not necessarily a bad play', and this is especially true on games 2/3.Originally Posted by Zooligan
BTW, I'm not sure if it's been explored yet, or not even conceivable, but has Burning Wish been tested? Seems good to bring in Massacre and Meltdown/Pulverize. Also putting in a copy of Reanimate, which can prove game winning in a mirror match by reanimating a discarded fatty on the other side of the table. It also enables to play a Duress in the main and an Unmask in the board. It also brings in Stronghold Gambit to beat GY hate.
It does slow the deck's average go-for-it turn (which is the main reason to play BR instead of UB), but I don't know might be worth it.
Yes, it has its own thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ing-Reanimator
Your game was probably against me :)
-Don't EOT entomb when you don't have a reanimation in the mirror, opponent might have reanimate or animate dead and no way of pitching a fattie.
-Iona is always the correct ranimation target in the mirror, is locks your opponent out of the game. Unless of course they have an answer in play already, then Griselbrand is the go to in almost all situations, Tidespout in niche situations. Archon should be boarded out in the mirror, its useless.
A lot of results for this deck have been posted on MTGGoldfish in the past few days in the lead-up to GP Chiba. Thought I would chime in on a few things:
1) Unmake = Unmask. Unmake is unplayable. Example of what I'm talking about:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/516716#online
2) Sheoldred - ???
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/517281#online
3) Some people in the thread are talking about Burning Wish. Here's the list I ran for a few months back at the beginning of this year:
4 Griselbrand
6-7 other creatures
13 land inc. 1 Bayou
1-2 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Dark Ritual
4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb, 4 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize, 4 Unmask
SB:
1 Meltdown
1 Wretched Banquet
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Buried Alive
1 Chainer's Edict / Stronghold Gambit / Show and Tell
4 Burning Wish
1 other fatty target
A list I 5-0'd with: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/390455#online
Burning Wish IMO takes up too much space in the main and slows it down too much G1 to have a Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Unmask, and Exhume in the sideboard. The sideboard plan is +4 Burning Wish for one of each of the sorceries: Reanimate, Exhume, Thoughtseize, Unmask. The Wishes were fun and flexible. Keep in mind I was running Children of Korlis -> Tendrils of Agony kill in this deck instead of the typical win cons such as Tidespout + Sire or Archetype + Iona.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
How are you feeling about the deck since you wrote the primer? Is it nearing maturity or do you feel there is still tuning to be done?
Tuning for the local meta will always have to take place. This isn't a list like RUG where you just have your decklist and you stick with it for years.
I just bought into this deck since I realized I was only missing about $30 worth of cards. Excited to see how it goes! Never played a reanimator style outside of Mimeoplasm, so I'm pumped. (:
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
I played this in a 60ish man 1k at Cardkingdom today. Ended up making top 4. My list is as follows:
Sorcery (20)
4x Exhume
4x Faithless Looting
4x Reanimate
4x Thoughtseize
4x Unmask
Creature (11)
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
2x Sire Of Insanity
1x Tidespout Tyrant
Land (14)
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Marsh Flats
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
Instant (8)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
Enchantment (3)
3x Animate Dead
Artifact (4)
4x Lotus Petal
Sideboard (15)
1x Blazing Archon
2x Collective Brutality
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Massacre
3x Pithing Needle
1x Scrubland
4x Wear
Really liking this deck, had a lot of turn 1 concessions to Sire of Insanity. The wear tears are pretty solid in the sideboard. I prefer the Unmasks over SSG because after an early Griselbrand you can hit them with discard to protect it. If I get time I might try for a mini tourney report. But my memory is spotty at best these days:P
Congrats on your finish! Your list looks a lot like what I've been testing, so I have a few questions if you've got the time:
a) How did you feel about the full 4 wear//tear in the board? I've been going back and forth on whether 3 or 4 is correct.
b) Do you ever find yourself hunting for a reanimation spell? It's the part of the combo for which we have the least redundancy, and I've been thinking of find a slot for the 4th Animate Dead in the main and maybe even an Unburial Rites in the SB for grindy games (You get a virtual 5 copies since you can entomb it too)
c) I hadn't really considered throwing an extra land in the SB, how has that been for you thus far? Is it worth the slot?
Thanks!
Thanks, Sure!
Most the time I put in 2 or 3. Unless I know the person has chalices along with permanent based GY hate. The eldrazi players around here tend to run 4x leyline of the void. So the wear tears have been pretty good.a) How did you feel about the full 4 wear//tear in the board? I've been going back and forth on whether 3 or 4 is correct.
Yes, I tend to mull any hand that does not have reanimation in it. I too have been considering putting in the 4th Animate dead. I considered the Unburial rights but I think if we are at that point we are already in alot of trouble. Also it gets hit by GY hate they will be able to bring in.b) Do you ever find yourself hunting for a reanimation spell? It's the part of the combo for which we have the least redundancy, and I've been thinking of find a slot for the 4th Animate Dead in the main and maybe even an Unburial Rites in the SB for grindy games (You get a virtual 5 copies since you can entomb it too)
I think it is. In games without wastelands I just swap it for a fetch. In games where my mana is at risk I just straight add it in. I have been happy with it so far.c) I hadn't really considered throwing an extra land in the SB, how has that been for you thus far? Is it worth the slot?
Thanks!
Honestly when sideboarding I tend to go the no fear route, hence no gambits, sneak attacks or whatever, just wear/tear to deal with GY hate. As to not take away our speed or turn 1/2 games.
@Zooligan: I like where this deck is at the moment. I think minimal tuning is required once you figure out what is actually important in the deck. Examples of cards that people play until they realize they're unnecessary/bad:
Elesh Norn
Blazing Archon
Massacre / Pyroclasm
Pithing Needle
Sire of Insanity
Here are my thoughts on Sire of Insanity specifically. Keep in mind that this analysis is mostly only for the Looting hands:
1) On the draw, a turn 1 Sire is frequently meh. You could lose to turn 1 Top, turn 1 do nothing - holding up Swords or Dismember, drawing Swords, drawing Terminus, drawing Maze of Ith, playing against a reasonable Lands.deck start, Aether Vial ticking up and putting in guys, topdecking 2nd land -> Goyf (which will probably be big enough), etc.
2) People keep raving about entombing it for a turn 1 "kill". Have you guys READ Griselbrand?
3) Hardcasting it - likely not turn 1, so likely bad against all the cards/plays mentioned in (1).
4) Occaisionally discarding your own hand feels bad.
In short, with turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top being >15% of the format, and Lands and Death and Taxes being respectable metagame presences, Sire is not playable simply because by itself it doesn't guarantee anything.
Let's take Archetype of Endurance as a replacement:
PROs:
Beats Swords, Dismember, Maze of Ith, JTMS, etc., almost anything except Terminus / Supreme Verdict
Better Entomb target post-Griselbrand after turn 1
Part of a hard lock with Iona, even after Griselbrand is surgical'd
Protects your other creatures (Chancellors) if you get to that weird kind of topdeck game with no Griselbrand
CONs:
Loses more to topdeck Goyfs / Vials on its own
Loses to exactly Terminus out of Miracles
Doesn't discard hands
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
I haven't been too impressed with Sire either. When I play a card like that turn one and still lose, it makes it hard to pick anything outside Griselbrand (with a few exceptions) when deciding what to reanimate. I think he got popular because he's R/B and the deck's shell are the same colors but it's an unnecessary coincidence to include him in my opinion. I wouldn't fault anyone for running him as a 1 of, which I'm currently doing myself but I'm genuinely considering cutting him outright for the 4th copy of Animate Dead.
I also don't understand how more people aren't playing Iona in the main, she's absolutely bonkers in my experience. My only assumption is due to all the Eldrazi decks in the format but then... just don't tutor/entomb/reanimate her game 1 and side her out game 2?
I do like Pithing Needle and Elesh Norn in the board but personal taste I guess. Elesh Norn destroys so many creature based decks, she's worth a slot. I have tried Blazing Archon but he feels so... bad to me. It might require further testing but haven't been impressed. What matchups do you guys bring him in for?
One card that's been a total all-star for me out of the board? Blood Moon.
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about Inkwell Leviathan then? It has the obvious downside of only protecting itself, so it isn't as much of a hard lock as Archetype + another fatty, but contrary to Archetype, it's pretty strong on its own. Archetype can't attack into most Eldrazi, Mentor with any mana up, Pyromancer and mana up, 2 Delvers, Gurmag Angler, most boardstates that DnT can conjure up, etc. Sure, Archetype has a higher ceiling, but it'll literally never win the game on its own, and if you have 2 fatties in play, odds are you're beating pretty much everything but Terminus anyway. I'm still playing the Sires main but I have an Inkwell in the side, and I've found that having double evasion + shroud + enormous stats is big game.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what to sideboard out in this deck. When you bring in 3-4 Wear//Tear, what do you usually take out?
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about Inkwell Leviathan then? It has the obvious downside of only protecting itself, so it isn't as much of a hard lock as Archetype + another fatty, but contrary to Archetype, it's pretty strong on its own. Archetype can't attack into most Eldrazi, Mentor with any mana up, Pyromancer and mana up, 2 Delvers, Gurmag Angler, most boardstates that DnT can conjure up, etc. Sure, Archetype has a higher ceiling, but it'll literally never win the game on its own, and if you have 2 fatties in play, odds are you're beating pretty much everything but Terminus anyway. I'm still playing the Sires main but I have an Inkwell in the side, and I've found that having double evasion + shroud + enormous stats is big game.
I like the look of Empyrial Archangel in the sideboard. Has evasion, protection, and protects you. Sure it doesn't protect other creatures, but you may not have to with her. What are people's thoughts on this target? I plan on a one-of in my sideboard for applicable matchups.
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
I always play with one in the sideboard and I'm very happy with it. Very nice against Death and Taxes, Maverick, Lands, Burn, UR Delver and other aggressive Decks, because your opponent can't race or kill him normally. And when he dies no problem just Reanimate him again :D I think Inkwell Leviathan is also pretty good, because it's a 3 turn clock, but against Death and Taxes and Maverick where your opponent can bring in Batterskull I prefer Angel. And those are the two most relevant matchups for a shroudcreature. Only against Lands I think Leviathan is stronger because he's one turn faster (but with Angel you can survive Marit Lage).
Inkwell Leviathan is a better choice than Sire and seems like an arguable replacement for Archetype if you don't get extra value out of putting pigs into play :D
Regarding Batterskull vs. Inkwell, here's the optimal play pattern out of D+T to try to race it:
t1: Mom
t2: stoneforge
t3: batterskull
t4+ attack every turn, block with pro blue every turn.
So they need Mom AND Stoneforge to beat it, and we can still beat it if we have a discard spell after they search for Batterskull.
As for Empyrial vs. the same start:
on the play:
t2: put opponent to 15, opponent searches for batterskull
t3: put opponent to 10, opponent holds up mana
t4: put opponent to 5, opponent puts in batterskull, attacks us for 4 to go to 9
t5: put opponent to 4,
(etc.)
if the opponent can find a flyer, they can block us forever using Mother of Runes.
So we have concluded that even turn 1 Empyrial or Inkwell on the play can't beat Mother of Runes + Batterskull.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Mom is not an issue after boarding, because then we have Massacre + Collective Brutality. I also think there is no need to play a shroudcreature main.
Depending on the match, but usually I remove some number of discard spells. Also it depends on the kind of hate you see. I have found people in my local area are starting to respect the deck and dropping RIP/cages in favor of surgicals, Leyline of the Void, or faeries. In which case you want the discard more obv.
As for people crapping on Sire of Insanity I can't disagree more. It has won me alot of games, Sure it is not always a win. But on the play it is a very high %. I think 2 is the right number in the main. In sideboarding I tend to go down to one if my other creatures are more hateful. But Sire against any fair deck, burn or eldrazi for instance is pretty much a win. Most people concede on the spot to avoid giving you any info. Which is fine with me.
Yeah I've been feeling the same with Wear//Tear, I feel like I only ever want 4 vs Eldrazi essentially, since they have lots of artifacts/enchantments I want to kill. I'm also off the Sneak Attack or similar plan, I tried it but too often found myself in spots where I had parts of each combo and didn't have a very good line either way (do I bin the fatty and hope to topdeck reanimation, or do I keep it in hand and hope to draw mana to cast Sneak). Without blue card filtering, I really felt like bringing in Sneak Attack just made me a worse Sneak & Show deck. Anyway, food for thought as far as the SB is concerned, I'm still testing and changing it pretty frequently. Currently my 15 is:
4 wear//tear
2 pithing needle
3 collective brutality
2 faerie macabre (mostly for the mirror. Still debating if Surgical is better here)
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 inkwell
1 blazing archon
My 60 is pretty identical to yours, but I'm going to test -1 Thoughtseize +1 Animate Dead as soon as I get a chance, I'll report back if anything conclusive comes of it.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote