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Thread: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

  1. #21

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    Certainly the maindeck is agreed upon at this point. Any person looking to play the deck should definitely obtain:

    4 Griselbrand, 6 other combo creatures / cards
    12 Reanimation Spells
    4 Thoughtseize 4 Unmask
    4 Dark Ritual 4 Lotus Petal
    4 Entomb 4 Faithless Looting
    8 black fetches, 2 Badlands, 2 Swamp, 1 B/X splash dual land
    Although I agree with most of the ideas been thrown in this thread so far, I must nuance a bit what you are saying when it comes to the 'agreed' MD backbone.
    Imho, the discard spells are not must play per say. They are good options but can also be a handicap every now and then. On the other hand, I believe that 4 Simian Spirit Guides should be part of the MD as these are the reason why the BR iteration of Reanimator is faster than BU one.

    M2c

  2. #22

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    Certainly the maindeck is agreed upon at this point. Any person looking to play the deck should definitely obtain:

    4 Griselbrand, 6 other combo creatures / cards
    12 Reanimation Spells
    4 Thoughtseize 4 Unmask
    4 Dark Ritual 4 Lotus Petal
    4 Entomb 4 Faithless Looting
    8 black fetches, 2 Badlands, 2 Swamp, 1 B/X splash dual land

    I played the Burning Wish sideboard for a few months but since switching to a green sideboard I've been pretty impressed with 4 Abrupt Decay as a catchall answer that you bring in against almost every deck, expecting hate. I choose to be able to beat Leyline post-board so I also have 4 Reverent Silence in my sideboard. I think that you are only bringing in 4 cards at most against almost any deck, so I fill my sideboard with 4 ofs as much as possible.

    My current creature suite is 4 Griz, 3 Jin-Gitaxias, 1 flex slot, and then 2 slots for 2 Children of Korlis + Tendrils of Agony. The flex slot started out as Grave Titan, switched to Tidespout Tyrant, but there's a lot of Swords to Plowshares running around. It will likely become Inkwell Leviathan or Archetype of Endurance.



    You take OUT 4 Unmask to side in 4 abrupt decay ?

  3. #23

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by cris_rj View Post
    You take OUT 4 Unmask to side in 4 abrupt decay ?
    I think Unmask is definitely required, Thoughtseize is the one that's being trimmed as well most often, which I do agree with (Going down to 2 isn't uncommon).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocco111 View Post
    Although I agree with most of the ideas been thrown in this thread so far, I must nuance a bit what you are saying when it comes to the 'agreed' MD backbone.
    Imho, the discard spells are not must play per say. They are good options but can also be a handicap every now and then. On the other hand, I believe that 4 Simian Spirit Guides should be part of the MD as these are the reason why the BR iteration of Reanimator is faster than BU one.

    M2c
    As for SSG, I much prefer Lotus Petal, as it's really a 60/40 flip of when I want B or R off the Petal, and not being able to get B is what forces me away from SSG. I also don't want to cut anything else from the MD given how intensive our combo already is (Though I could see SSG in place of the TSes as Petals 5+, but that's the only possible cut).

    As for siding out things, against non-blue decks I almost always side out either Unmask or Chancellor, depending if I'm on play or draw.

  4. #24

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    I typically take out Thoughtseizes for Decays / Reverents. Unmasks usually stay in because they are *disgusting*.

    @Nocley he's talking about a version with Petals, Rituals, AND Simian Spirit Guides. Petals are non-negotiable for this deck.

  5. #25

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Hey all, another guy who sometimes makes 5-0's with this deck online here (medvedev). Thanks for a great primer, just some notes I'd like to add.

    First, in ~200 matches I've never missed the second Swamp. In my opinion being able to cast a turn 1 Looting (paying with a non-Petal source if possible) is much more important. I'm happy with my manabase of 8 fetches, 4 Badlands, 1 Swamp, 1 Bx dual. If splashing nothing then an extra fetchland or Blackcleave Cliffs instead. Also I think it's better to run bg+ub split of fetchlands because playing one of them and passing is a normal turn 1 play for many decks, thus lower probability of your opponent being suspicious and not using his DRS for mana turn 2 on play.

    While I've always been running 0 or 4 Chancellors I kinda disagree that any numbers in between are wrong. This card is bad in multiples, you only want having two against FoW on draw. And it's not mentioned how good it protects your turn1 wins against FoW on play, it's basically a free Unmask. I find Chancellor being great in three situations: vs combo, vs FoW decks on play, and vs DRS/Thorn/Chalice decks on draw.

    I see no point in running Lightning Bolt over Disfigure which kills all the same creatures but can be pitched to Unmask.

    Needle can be useful not only against Karakas but also for DRS (unlike Disfigure it isn't black but can deal with multiples), Top/Jace (which in my experience isn't always as irrelevant as you say often being the only answer to Iona), Hexmage (quite popular online), and Faerie Macabre (if you're sure they run a full playset).

    Elesh Norn is the best and probably the only really good reanimation target against Dredge. It's also obviously good against Elves, UR Delver and some other decks but if you don't expect Dredge then there might be better ways to use this sideboard slot.

    Archon was also good against oldschool Sneak Attack deck but lately most people seem to run Sneak+Omniscience hybrid so it's not so useful anymore. Run one for Eldrazi matchup if you don't have Chancellors, not really needed if you do.

    Against mana Dredge discard is good on play and often terrible on draw. Against manaless it's always great being basically a Time Walk.

    You've posted my list as an example of blue splash but tbh I'm not really a fan. The only matchup where I'm really happy about SnT package is Eldrazi for two reasons: high probability of facing Leyline, and City being good alone against Thorns. If you expect a lot of Eldrazi it's a good idea to pack some Ingot Chewers as well — they are perfect answers to Thorn and Chalice.

    As for general deckbuilding tips, I think important number to know is 14 — which means 90% probability to get something on turn 1. That's why I wouldn't recommend running less than 14 lands (or Chrome Mox which I've never tried but looks interesting), 14 ways to put a fatty into graveyard (so it's quite acceptable to cut Thoughtseizes down to two, and for me copies #3-4 are often first cards to side out even if they are supposed to be good), 10 fatties (14 with Entombs, you could justify running one less due to counting playset of Lootings as a virtual creature but not all fatties are good in all matchups so I'd still stick to 10), and 14 reanimation spells (not much you can do here so play 12 and hope for the best). Lately I think as a rule of thumb it's almost always correct to keep these groups even at sideboarding (like going down to 13 in each) even if it makes you keep 'bad' cards and cut the 'good' ones. It's often tempting to cut something weak like Animate Dead but it makes your deck too unstable unless you bring Gambit/SnT (note that these ones as well as Entomb let you cheat with numbers due to belonging to 2 categories at the same time). Besides two excessive discard spells, another safe cut for sideboarding is 2 ramp spells (probably Ritual+Petal split) because 22 sources of mana are two more than you need to consistently reach two mana on turn 2. Feel free to do it any time unless you have a very good reason not to decrease your turn 1 win probability (mirror, Belcher, being on the play expecting Cage/Flusterstorm).

    I like the idea of Children and Tendrils but does it really improve any matchup? I don't remember many games lost after Griselbrand activation, and those were probably lost to some uncommon permanent hate like Chasm or Archon. While Tendrils combo deals with those, doesn't Tyrant do the same?

    Another thing I'd like to discuss is what you guys do when unknown opponent concedes to your turn1 Sire. Do you bring something like Decay to deal with possible hate or just submit same 60 until you have more information?

  6. #26

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Great to hear from you on this forum! Glad you found it.

    The second swamp is something that certainly can be cut. I like it against Delver decks to play around Wasteland to the maximum, but I will obtain a 3rd Badlands and see how it goes. I definitely agree that Verdant Catacombs is better than Bloodstained Mire because it leaks less information on our deck - Bloodstained Mire is only commonly run in combo decks (or burn I guess).

    Lightning Bolt can kill Jace or Lily or go upstairs. I agree that Disfigure is likely better, though I haven't played much of either card.

    Since switching to the Chrome Mox over the 14th land and the Children of Korlis -> Tendrils of Agony kill, I have never needed Pithing Needle. Karakas usually doesn't do anything unless there is another card involved (their Pithing Needle on Griselbrand, Thalia, Counterbalance, etc.) by which point the game is probably lost even with Tidespout because you are usually just as dead to Swords to Plowshares. I have started experimenting with an Inkwell Leviathan will only make my version better against Karakas, although Inkwell doesn't play nicely with Shallow Grave in my version. It might just become a maindeck Archetype of Endurance.

    I have never worried about the Dredge matchup at all because Children of Korlis -> Tendrils changes some matchups. Against decks that can potentially deal with Griselbrand (Miracles, BUG, Death and Taxes) and decks that can beat it (Storm, Sneak and Show, Food Chain), you have a way of turning that Griselbrand into a win on the same turn. You DO lose some consistency because sometimes your turn 1 Looting -> discard fatty -> Reanimate won't be keepable because the "fatty" is the Children of Korlis taking up a slot. However, so many matchups change so drastically compared to Tidespout Locking or some other win condition that I am sticking with Children -> Tendrils kill. Edit: Also, after drawing 14, you need to make 3 mana to get Tidespout and then need more spells to cast to bounce anything that turn (not guaranteed even after drawing 14). Reanimate is still live after drawing 14 because Children only costs you one life, so you can get by with only 2 mana from the draw 14. Then, you don't need any other spells in hand, because Children is going to die and let you draw another 14. It is also randomly good when racing so you can freely draw 7-14 without impacting the damage race math.

    I am glad to hear some thoughts on your blue splash, sad to hear that it hasn't been great for you. I usually board in ways to kill Leyline in the blind against Eldrazi, and I never board in more than 4 cards, so I won't be running Ingot Chewers. However, I will post Ingot Chewer somewhere in the primer.

    After a turn 1 concede I think that boarding in Abrupt Decays is correct. You want Decays against Miracles, Eldrazi, Delver (all three most popular decks already), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, and Aggro Loam (some run Leyline but w/e). That's ~50% of the MTGO meta, and in paper Death and Taxes is played more so that only increases the %. You certainly don't need to mulligan to Decays, if I have a turn 1 on 7 cards on the draw G2 I still snap keep it. Also, Decays are semi-relevant against some other decks -> you could catch Storm off guard with a silly Abrupt Decay on their Lion's Eye Diamond.

  7. #27

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    @ykpon I like running the full 4 chancellors as well, but can't settle on maindeck or SB myself. Would like to hear a little deeper into the thought process you have on the matter, I have seen your lists off mtggoldfish, and have gone back and forth on the 4 sire maindeck as well since you can use it for unmask, which iona/archon etc can't.

    @DNSolver As far as the land situation I keep going going between (13 land + mox/14 land+mox/14 land no Mox) I find it hard to know what is better, when you draw the land you need your great on 13, and sometimes your mulling and RNG hates you :/ But I do feel like Chrome mox is correct if your playing tendrils because its nice to have a free 0 drop for mana that counts to storm. I would most likely cut the Mox and run 14 land if I also cut the Tendrils.

    2nd question: Thoughts on the Tendrils plan sans Jin-Gitaxias. I do storm off without it, but its always off a gb attack draw/child draw tendrils kind of a turn, but its defiantly lower than your % of being able to do so. Do you consider it worth it to try and tendrils at all in this case.


    For reference ( I play in paper not MTGO), Im running a list similar to DNSolver but my creatures look like: (4gb, 1 Iona,1 Tidespout,1 Grave titan, 1 Sire,1 Child) (1 mox only) SB: (1 Inkwell, 1 Archon, 1 Elesh, 3 Reverent, 3 Decay, 4 Chancellor, 2 Faerie Macabre)
    - I do have the tendrils in Maindeck for that combo as well. Not 100% sold does sometimes feel like its just a winmore card sometimes, But ending the game right there still reduces that off-chance you pass turn and they have something is very helpful.

    In my Meta, we have 2 Dnt, 2 Eldrazi, 2 Shardless, 1 Omnitell, 1 Manaless, 1 Storm, 1 elves, 1 Miracles, 1 Punishing Jund/Lands guy, 1 Burn. And maybe a few more I am missing that are here and there. So I have been maindecking the Iona alot. I kind of what to test a archetype of endurance in the list, but most the time I just use the Inkwell for that, Blazing Archon I bring in for the eldrazi guys and it has been fantastic.

    Thanks, and anyone feel free to post thoughts as well.

  8. #28

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    I was indeed talking about running both Petals, Rituals AND SSG. I would not see any reason in the world to cut Petals for Guides. ;)

    Regarding the Chancellors, I think the card is a monster. Like, it is the best way to go all-in. Now, if you do not play an All-in version, then I would indeed reflect on its relevance in the deck and would probably keep it in the sideboard. However, I do think it is '0 or 4'. At best, I could imagine a scenario where you have maybe a couple of combo decks in a meta and you already know the players running these deck so you just have 1 Chancellor in the SB, as a silver bullet, to entomb G2/3 to break their back. But even then, isn't it better to have 4 and be sure to have one in hand/grave faster?
    I think the basic question is more to know whether you want to go through the hate T1 or not. If yes, then Chancellor is likely to become your best friend. If not, then leave it.

    Quick question: has anyone being toying with Collective Brutality?
    So far, I did a couple of games with it and found it to be interesting enough to seriously consider the card for the deck. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

  9. #29

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    @DNSolver
    Good point about reanimating Children costing only 1 hp, now I see some upside of running Tendrils combo. However for me it still looks a bit weird to run both this combo and Tyrant whose main function in my experience is dealing with lock pieces you don't really care about with Tendrils. Maybe it's better to replace Tyrant with another fatty then?

    @xix
    For me maindeck core looks like this:

    14 lands + 6 ramp spells
    4 Looting + 4 Entomb + 4 Unmask + 2 Thoughtseize
    12 reanimation spells
    10 fatties

    This leaves you with 56 cards. Remaining four are usually extra copies of Thoughtseize/Petal/Ritual but I can see playing something else here. An additional creature, Chrome Mox, Tendrils combo, Unburial Rites, maindeck Decay and so on — whatever you like.

    As for 10 fatties, I like two approaches and still not sure which one is better:

    1) 4 Griselbrand 4 Chancellor 1 Sire 1 Iona (sb: 1 Tyrant, 0-1 Archetype, 0-1 Elesh)
    2) 4 Griselbrand 4 Sire 1 Iona 1 Tyrant/Archon (sb: 1 Archon/Tyrant, 0-1 Archetype, 0-1 Elesh, 0-4 Chancellor)

    If you want to side in some creatures not mentioned, they'd better be useful against Miracles because both Chancellor and Sire are pretty bad on the draw against them.

    On sideboard, I still fail to find a good configuration. It probably should include some amount of Decay/Needle and shouldn't include Gambit because this card despite being very good only really helps against those decks where our 60 are already good enough. What I know is that I'm not a fan of Reverent Silence unless there is Enchantress in your meta. Not many people play Leyline, and if they do they often don't draw it leaving you with a dead card, and if they do draw it you often don't draw Silence, and you both draw what you want you often either have a good way to win (like reanimating Reality Smasher) or lose despite having an answer (because they also have a turn1 Thorn turn2 Seer). Number of games you're going to win because of Silence is too low for me to justify running it, probably even lower than number of games you lose drawing it over what you side out.

    @Rocco111
    I can imagine a red-based list where SSG is better than Petal. No Unmask, red discard outlets, Goryo's Vengeance + Fury of the Horde combo, SSG + Pyroblast protection. Doubt it's a good idea though :)

    Collective Brutality looks worse than something like Inquisition of Kozilek which also only deals with DRS on play (like we really need it) but isn't as narrow in other situations. If would be good if it could actuall kill DRS and discard FoW at the same time but it just doesn't work this way — they FoW it and exile what you discarded.

  10. #30

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    I'm beginning to agree with a lot of those comments, except the Reverent Silence. But that's mainly because I really need something to handle the Leyline decks, and I don't know what that is. Maybe it is Show and Tell (even though you say you no longer like it)? I went 3-3 in Legacy Festival yesterday, two of the matches being to terrible misplays (like clicking the wrong card with TS when I was just trying to focus window to get a screen shot of their hand), the third was getting stomped by Eldrazi with Leyline + Chalice.

    But yeah, Gambit does not need to be a 4 of, if at all. I've only brought it in against a few lesser played archetypes, but it really does not need to have 4 slots, 3 max.

    But I'm still stuck somewhere thinking about the current SB, given that I do see lots of Storm, Chalice Decks, and Lands locally (And yes, I know that makes no sense).

    Assuming I'm still on the 4 Chancellor MD plan, this is the SB I want to try, though I don't know the next time I'll be able to play this deck.

    1 Tidespout Tyrant
    1 Elesh Norn
    3 Stronghold Gambit
    3 Reverent Silence
    3 Faerie Macabre
    4 Abrupt Decay (or 2 / 2 Ingot Chewer, but I think I want Decays more to hit the other things like Counterbalance)

  11. #31

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocley View Post
    I'm beginning to agree with a lot of those comments, except the Reverent Silence. But that's mainly because I really need something to handle the Leyline decks, and I don't know what that is. Maybe it is Show and Tell (even though you say you no longer like it)?
    Againt Leyline Show and Tell is good, I just don't face Leyline often enough. However SnT package eats half of your sideboard, it hurts if you aren't excited about it in popular matchups like Miracles and Grixis. I'm not but I know someone who is so maybe it's too early to reject it completely.

    I think Chewer is better than Decay against Eldrazi, they both have pros and cons against Merfolk, and Decay is better in other matchups. So if you splash green and your meta isn't infested with Thorn of Amethist decks then play 4 Decay first I guess and then maybe add a couple of Chewers if you have any free slots you don't know how to use.

    If Lands are popular in you meta then Gambit is actually fine because it lets you side some bad discard out. Also you can probably consider moving Iona to sideboard for maindeck Tyrant which is better against Lands and Eldrazi (and for storm Chancellor is usually enough).

  12. #32

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    I'm usually pretty excited to see Griselbrand without Brainstorm, but what is this deck?

    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/450102#online

    Could we get Death.Gaze to explain this deck a bit? I don't really understand it. Looks like it might be a budget build (only one Griselbrand). No Faithless Lootings, Stage/Depths combo? Shattering Spree and Smelt in the maindeck? What is the point of that? Eldrazi decks? I don't know what I'm looking at, perhaps someone can help me out?

    The Stage/Depths combo seems like good sideboard tech in that it avoids the graveyard, but it would probably need all 15 slots to be useful. Also, it seems like it is weak against Swords to Plowshares and Karakas, which people think are good against our deck and are likely to use in post-board games if they have them.

  13. #33

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Hi all!

    Does anyone know of, or have links to, videos of B/R Reanimator in action? I'd prefer seeing it live, not on MTGO. I can find plenty of U/B, B/R seems to not be as prevalent. I just recently picked this deck up, and I learn best by watching others with it. Thanks!

  14. #34

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    There are some Youtube videos of Jeremy Charles playing this deck at various French tournaments. Example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clYX4UMM38w

  15. #35

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Jeremy aka "Dindon" >> DindonRea

  16. #36

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Hey, a list by bgg88 was featured in a Mtggoldfish article a few days ago. Almost have this list put together, just a need a Bayou. I'll be playing in my LGS's monthly Legacy challenge.

    Here's the link.
    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ties-into-play

  17. #37

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/451481#online

    Another weird decklist - this guy MadScientist 777 appears to have forgotten his Dark Rituals at home. He also crams 4 Iona, Shield of Emeria into the main. Here are the tier 1 decks sad about turn 1/2 Iona (assuming you name the correct color)

    Miracles - most versions are cutting Karakas, but naming White doesn't protect you from Vendilion Clique blocking and buying time for Jace, the Mind Sculptor to bounce it.
    Storm - sad in G1, less sad post-board when they can cast Chain of Vapor. TES can Wish for Goblins in G1 or can bounce Iona with Void Snare - however, if you know you are against TES, you are probably naming Red anyway.
    Reanimator, Elves - cutting off combo color
    Sneak and Show - to a lesser extent because they have two combos in different colors.
    Delver - doesn't really matter, the 7/7 is usually enough, but you *can* lose the race due to blocking with flipped Delvers
    Shardless - naming black is okay, but Goyfs can race you or Jace can bounce it

    As for decks where Iona is bad:

    Death and Taxes - 3x Karakas on the turn they draw it are still bad odds for you with this
    Eldrazi - Iona naming black for Dismember is okay, but you could still lose the race or die to Endbringer

    4x seems like a lot but I guess right now it's okay? Thoughts?

  18. #38

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Well, if 4 Iona works, then it works. I don't see it as necessary, but it's hard to argue with results. I feel like the creature base in any Reanimator build is about 50% meta and 50% player preference. I like having 4 Sire of Insanity MB, just to see the look of despair on my opponent's face.

    @DNSolver: I'm intrigued by the Tendrils angle. How well does that work, and what's the average damage you get when it goes off?

  19. #39

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    dudedusty - what exactly are you wondering about with "the Tendrils angle"? When you have 42 cards in your hand, you can cast 10 spells easily, including the Tendrils. The only way to fizzle is to not get to Children of Korlis, which typically takes two or three fast mana and entomb->reanimate or just lotus petal -> children. Typically drawing 14 with any black mana floating is >90% to win on the spot, assuming no interaction from the opponent (such as Karakas / Swords in response to drawing).

    Also, "results" in this case is the MTGO meta, which is very skewed. 4 Iona is great if you play against storm/burn/elves three times out of the five rounds. The primer discussion here is more of a place to think about what slots move around as the meta change.

    Edit for example to make above statement less harsh: turn 1 Iona in the blind, name White (for Swords to Plowshares, very reasonable). Lands opponent crop rotates into Karakas and then you lose four turns later. Lands is much more popular in paper than online because online time limits work differently and because a playset of Rishadan Ports costs $1000 online.

  20. #40

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    @DNSolver-I was thinking it was more of a traditional Storm kill, but if I'm understanding it right, you'd have already had to land a Griselbrand and sac/reanimate Children of Korlis multiple times to get the needed amount of cards in hand, correct?

    Also, I don't play on MTGO, strictly paper.

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